Low tier variation problems: Who's struggling and why

[ismael4790]

Balanced Kenshi definitely fits here.

It was a variation very reliant on his punishable armor launcher, to antiair and be threatening. Now without it, his options are much worse. His tf is still death on whiff, his regular overhead slash is very slow and not rearding on hit at all, and the changes to exoverhead slash have been more like complementary buffs than true help, specially because startup is the same than regular one.

It's sad, but he sucks even more than prepatch and many matchup got worse for him.

 

[Skedar70]

He is definitely low tier

Nice downplaying there. Good points.

 

[Gofer_MK]

I feel like Outlaw Erron is as bad as it gets. He has nothing to work with from a far, and has little to do up close, aside form obvious ticks. He has slow moves, no mid all high, decent pokes but nothing special. Sektor, Kitana or any other zoner murders him... A-list, Jax, Sub-Zero murders him... Marksman is better, but could use a improved zoning.

A-list is at least mid or something like that (could be better but I don't know), just watch how @IrishMantis uses him. Simply amazing.

I am no pro so I might be 100% wrong.

 

[Second Saint]

I main triborg All variations, cyrax has a lot of issues that make me cry at night

What are they? The whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the issues, not make blanket statements of who is bad. People have only said that he is bad and barely touched on why. The only reason I've seen so far as to why Cyrax is bad is "his neutral is terrible and most players get tired of being low profiled." Is that it? Can we get some more specifics on this terrible neutral and low profiling issues?

At this point, if I were to use only the reasons stated in this thread, I would be forced to conclude that cyrax isn't that bad simply due to the fact the only person to make any sort of argument about cyrax's neutral was questioning why it was considered bad and supported that statement with details. Why is this character bad?

Balanced Kenshi definitely fits here.

It was a variation very reliant on his punishable armor launcher, to antiair and be threatening. Now without it, his options are much worse. His tf is still death on whiff, his regular overhead slash is very slow and not rearding on hit at all, and the changes to exoverhead slash have been more like complementary buffs than true help, specially because startup is the same than regular one.

It's sad, but he sucks even more than prepatch.

Thank you for actually going into detail and stating real, specific reasons for this variations problems. How bad is teleflurry on whiff? Are we talking full combo punishable from full screen or they just get in? What kind of reward does he get off ex overhead slash?

 

[ienjoywinning]

I'm aware that Marksman has issues like all other run cancel characters, but what about Outlaw? What specifically are the problems that make him bottom 5. A list is not what we need. Anyone can just throw out characters and say they're bottom 5. That's not persuasive, it's not helpful, and it barely breeds discussion.

What are the problems, specifically? Erron has no good mid, right? Is that it? Overhead is too slow now? These characters got hurt worse by the armor changes than others? Have no anti-zoning? Don't tell me who's bottom 5, make your case. Show me why.

The removal of armored launchers hurt him pretty bad. Outlaws ex db4 was his best armored move in all 3 variations. sure its kinda slow but other than that it launched into a full combo into oki. it was why you would pick outlaw. that , and the njp and the df2 ender. literally all of his outlaw exclusive strings are useless and have no use what so ever. and 50/50's were a big part of the variation and with the oh being that slow and it having hitbox issues sometimes makes it worse.

 

[CrazyFingers]

What are they? The whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the issues, not make blanket statements of who is bad. People have only said that he is bad and barely touched on why. The only reason I've seen so far as to why Cyrax is bad is "his neutral is terrible and most players get tired of being low profiled." Is that it? Can we get some more specifics on this terrible neutral and low profiling issues?

At this point, if I were to use only the reasons stated in this thread, I would be forced to conclude that cyrax isn't that bad simply due to the fact the only person to make any sort of argument about cyrax's neutral was questioning why it was considered bad and supported that statement with details. Why is this character bad?




Thank you for actually going into detail and stating real, specific reasons for this variations problems. How bad is teleflurry on whiff? Are we talking full combo punishable from full screen or they just get in? What kind of reward does he get off ex overhead slash?

Cyrax's full screen presence is decent I will give you that but when you get up close he doesn't have ways to command respect except for MAYBE EX Saw. F4 has low profiling issues up the wazoo which is his only really good mid and it's not even that good. He has gaps everywhere, none of his setups are guaranteed what so ever really. He is basically a character that you either need to be playing against someone who doesn't know the matchup or you need to be a freaking clairvoyant with your reads.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Nice downplaying there. Good points.

What matchups does Cyrax win?

 

[Zionix]

Same people commenting on Cyrax, claiming that he is good with no solid argument.

It's getting boring to read now.

Trust the people that play him, when we say he has problems.

Comments like "no recovery on air grab" are laughable. It is decent for mobility but its not dirty, which is what a character needs to succeed in this game.

Cons: No safe armor, garbage MIDs, tricky hit confirms, abysmal recovery on nets, little plus frames even with meter, easily avoidable staggers, gaps in high strings, no overhead or low specials without set-up, no range on d3 and d4 has little use,

Pro's: Damage, good mind games with set-ups, db1 and db1ex great special, s1 and s4 amazing AA.

Essentially smoke and sektor tick the pros AND cover some of the cons as well. Why he needs a little bit more to be seen alot more in tournaments because as it stands he has no advantage or smoke\sektor in the meta.

Id give his teleport faster startup and less recovery (not much). Allow him to special cancel f211on hit and air grab connects, make it -8 on block. With f21 being -4.

Air grab can be meterburned to launch during animation (Cassie brawler)

Boom took me 10 minutes to make cyrax competitive.

 

[Skedar70]

What matchups does Cyrax win?

Which ones does he lose? I don't trust matchup numbers for tier placings because everyone has different MU numbers (look at the reveatleafing vs the kitana community discussion). Tiers should be based on tools. Cyrax tools are decent making him a solid mid tier character. Put him like the worse is just pure downplaying.

 

[Skedar70]

I'm done. The Cyrax downplaying is ridiculous. He is not top tier but he is not bottom either.

 

[Second Saint]

Same people commenting on Cyrax, claiming that he is good with no solid argument.

It's getting boring to read now.

Trust the people that play him, when we say he has problems.

Comments like "no recovery on air grab" are laughable. It is decent for mobility but its not dirty, which is what a character needs to succeed in this game.

Cons: No safe armor, garbage MIDs, tricky hit confirms, abysmal recovery on nets, little plus frames even with meter, easily avoidable staggers, gaps in high strings, no overhead or low specials without set-up, no range on d3 and d4 has little use,

Pro's: Damage, good mind games with set-ups, db1 and db1ex great special, s1 and s4 amazing AA.

Essentially smoke and sektor tick the pros AND cover some of the cons as well. Why he needs a little bit more to be seen alot more in tournaments because as it stands he has no advantage or smoke\sektor in the meta.

Id give his teleport faster startup and less recovery (not much). Allow him to special cancel f211on hit and air grab connects, make it -8 on block. With f21 being -4.

Air grab can be meterburned to launch during animation (Cassie brawler)

Boom took me 10 minutes to make cyrax competitive.

What makes the mids garbage? I was under the impression that f2 was a pretty good mid. Is it because it's hard to hit confirm? More whiffing issues? Bare in mind, I know next to nothing about cyrax and don't pretend to. That's why I'm asking so many questions, to get people to state all his fundamental issues. If you were referring to me as one of the people saying cyrax is good, I never did that. I urged to people to support their claim with reasons, which I have done for nearly everyone in this thread that has just thrown down " X character is really bad" and stated nothing else. Thank you very much for not being one of those people. I appreciate it. And I know what it feels like to have people who don't know your character very well make blatantly wrong claims about how good it is. I've been told Venomous has a safe vortex before when I'm -23 on every spray.

Even a cursory examination of the character tells me has an absolutely massive amount of gaps. 212 almost looked great for a second until I realized there are like 5 different ways out of those plus frames. D1 looks decent until you notice it's only +8 on hit and he doesn't have good enough mids to enforce that +8 too well. Can jail a s1 if you're frame perfect I suppose.

@CrazyFingers mentioned the setups aren't guaranteed. Are they beaten by tech roll or delayed wakeup? Can you do different setups that beat those things?

 

[D7X]

I think the bottom 5 in no order is Outlaw Erron Black, Marksman Erron Black, Cyrax, Balanced Kenshi, and HT Jacqui.

no inferno???

 

[Lokheit]

I think the bottom 5 in no order is Outlaw Erron Black, Marksman Erron Black, Cyrax, Balanced Kenshi, and HT Jacqui.

Kenjutsu Kenshi IMHO is even worse than Balanced right now. Same problems but with anit-synergetic moveset (tele toss works against itself on hit) and worse frames (unsafe push, more negative rising sword and harder to juggle meterless). Only saving grace is mixup but that's about it.

 

[Fellow_Swordsman]

Kenjutsu Kenshi IMHO is even worse than Balanced right now. Same problems but with anit-synergetic moveset (tele toss works against itself on hit) and worse frames (unsafe push, more negative rising sword and harder to juggle meterless). Only saving grace is mixup but that's about it.

I have to disagree with you on that. Like you said, he can mixup, but he also has pretty good reset potential, heavy blockstun push, far reaching overhead sword that's safe if spaced correctly, and really good damage. Not very tournament viable, but still better than Balanced.

 

[IrishMantis]

I feel like Outlaw Erron is as bad as it gets. He has nothing to work with from a far, and has little to do up close, aside form obvious ticks. He has slow moves, no mid all high, decent pokes but nothing special. Sektor, Kitana or any other zoner murders him... A-list, Jax, Sub-Zero murders him... Marksman is better, but could use a improved zoning.

A-list is at least mid or something like that (could be better but I don't know), just watch how @IrishMantis uses him. Simply amazing.

I am no pro so I might be 100% wrong.

Yeah nail on the head he's between mid to high-mid

You can definitely get by with him

 

[Doombawkz]

No mention of Lackey F/T or F/T in general?

Only characters without triple armor, no plus frames for traps and the few we have that are neutral or better are plagued with being armorable, easy to zone out because at full screen you can avoid ferra in both throws, and so on so forth.

 

[Sunny_D]

What are they? The whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the issues, not make blanket statements of who is bad. People have only said that he is bad and barely touched on why. The only reason I've seen so far as to why Cyrax is bad is "his neutral is terrible and most players get tired of being low profiled." Is that it? Can we get some more specifics on this terrible neutral and low profiling issues?

At this point, if I were to use only the reasons stated in this thread, I would be forced to conclude that cyrax isn't that bad simply due to the fact the only person to make any sort of argument about cyrax's neutral was questioning why it was considered bad and supported that statement with details. Why is this character bad?




Thank you for actually going into detail and stating real, specific reasons for this variations problems. How bad is teleflurry on whiff? Are we talking full combo punishable from full screen or they just get in? What kind of reward does he get off ex overhead slash?

He has trouble under pressure, his armor is still shit, is bomb combos shouldnt have super damage scailing ect. He should at least be able to combo off of his teleport id be okay with that. Not every character loses their revearsal maybe he can keep his

 

[TheGangstaFace]

I think the bottom 5 in no order is Outlaw Erron Black, Marksman Erron Black, Cyrax, Balanced Kenshi, and HT Jacqui.

Could you adjust this to bottom 6 because Kenjutsu is def worse than Balanced lol

 

[TheGangstaFace]

Which ones does he lose? I don't trust matchup numbers for tier placings because everyone has different MU numbers (look at the reveatleafing vs the kitana community discussion). Tiers should be based on tools. Cyrax tools are decent making him a solid mid tier character. Put him like the worse is just pure downplaying.

This makes literally no sense. At all. So if a variation beats the 99 other variations but his tools are "okay" then he's mid tier??? Wtf? That literally makes ZERO sense lmao. You still haven't said who he beats and haven't presented a good argument. It honestly sounds like someone mops you with Cyrax and you don't lab the mu. Also if a community for a variation comes together and comes up with mu numbers you can get a general idea of what variation beats another, goes even with another, or loses to another

 

[CompleteMadness]

Low tech Jaqui

 

[TheGangstaFace]

For instance, in theory a character could have what seems like the best move on paper, but there are mu's where characters can deal with that tool or even negate it period

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Which ones does he lose? I don't trust matchup numbers for tier placings because everyone has different MU numbers (look at the reveatleafing vs the kitana community discussion). Tiers should be based on tools. Cyrax tools are decent making him a solid mid tier character. Put him like the worse is just pure downplaying.

Lol he gets fucking bodied by Mileena and Sub-Zero for starters, there is easily more. Tiers should ALWAYS be based on matchups. What good is a tool if it doesn't help fight the other characters?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Actually my revised list:
Lackey, Outlaw, Cyrax, Kenjutsu, Balanced or High Tech

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

About Cyrax:

Pros:

Damage,
Crazy setups,
Setplay,
NJP,
Anti-airs,
Great counter-pokes with regular saw and EX bomb,
Regular saw and EX saw are REALLY good,
Safe 50/50s with regular saw,
Safe 50/50s that leads into a full combo thanks to the EX saw,
Good space control with bombs and net,
Air grab is good to approach,
Not meter hungry,
EX saw and EX bomb are underrated wakeups.

Cons:

His main mid (F2) has a small hitbox,
A lot of hit/hurt boxes issues,
His armored move is not very good,
Tricky hit confirms,
Very high execution.

To me, he is a very good character.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

@scarsunseen what do you think of Cyrax?