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Tech - Cryomancer Why Cryomancer Sub Zero is NOT Top 5.

Lokheit

Noob
His design is really dumb don't get me wrong, but if they buffed his neutral, GM would be broke.
It could've been buffed without touching GM with exclusive sword strings though. I was (and still am) surprised by the decission of instead of adressing his flaws making the mixups stronger (while also making his safe non-mixup strings unsafe, he got some specific nerfs that mostly only Cryo mains realize how important they were), still too early to judge but I keep thinking I woul've been happier in the current meta with a sword starting string and air hammer being useful in the neutral (like a ground pound or something... instead it went from horrible move to even worse as most characters have multi-armor anyway and the armor break wasn't even that rewarding before the meta change).
 

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
GM hasn't been nerfed. It was solely to fix the bugs there and, also, to improve a bit the other variations, IMO.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
How insecure are players now that their character being top 5 is considered a bad thing?

Are top 5 wins not worth REO bucks or Sonic dollars anymore?
 
It's not a bad thing, he just isn't top 5 like everyone thinks imo
To me he got nailed, lost armor for hammer and bomb, lost his cold blooded cancelability, all he need was a faster f1, d1 and d2, I would have preferred if they would have just left him alone, but I am just a average player at best and not like you hi quality playing folks who true,y know the insides and out of the game
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
To me he got nailed, lost armor for hammer and bomb, lost his cold blooded cancelability, all he need was a faster f1, d1 and d2, I would have preferred if they would have just left him alone, but I am just a average player at best and not like you hi quality playing folks who true,y know the insides and out of the game
I think he is way better now, but he is just a totally new character now
 
I honestly do think he is top 5. Its not only because of the kommand grabs. Its overall his footsies, his combo damage, great damage,great conversions and on top of that a bunch of tick throws. I honestly think just getting the tick throws didn't make him top tier. Hes top tier because everyone else got nerfed. So my opinion is that he is top tier, ive been loyal with him since day 1
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
I honestly do think he is top 5. Its not only because of the kommand grabs. Its overall his footsies, his combo damage, great damage,great conversions and on top of that a bunch of tick throws. I honestly think just getting the tick throws didn't make him top tier. Hes top tier because everyone else got nerfed. So my opinion is that he is top tier, ive been loyal with him since day 1
All of that got nerfed in this patch
- footsie game was nerfed
- damage was partly nerfed (still hits similar damage, but execution is much much harder)
- conversion are more or less the same
- tick throws are for late in a set come back if the opponent knows how to defend
- neutral cmd throw is decent, but is generally only worth the risk when he has bar

Overall his mix up game got buffed in terms of options, but they are much more unsafe.
His neutral was nerfed cos of the f42 change (huge damage nerf on it, and no longer able to hitconfirm for any 'good' damage without bar)
Damage nerf is minor overall for most other strings
 

Lokheit

Noob
his footsies
His what? You mean D4 checks?

Also his midscreen meterless damage took a big hit (B2 isn't a reliable combo starter midscreen anymore, you mostly have to settle for F42Slide now after a B2). The rest of his meterless combos are more or less fine but harder to execute and it's not worth spending bars on most of them anymore.

I'm going to quote myself from a different thread explaining how IMO his strengths were buffed when it wasn't neccessary/it doesn't really upgrade his gameplan and his weaknesses were either not addressed or made even worse:


Cryomancer: Really unpopular opinion here, but I don't think he's better (or at least much better) for the following reasons:

- His true weaknes, ultra crappy neutral, wasn't addressed at all (it's even worse now). Ask a player as good as Sonic how it's fighting characters with decent neutral with him, it sure didn't look pretty last time I checked no matter how rusty he looked with the character, the weaknesses were crystal clear. I would've been fine with simple changes as Air Hammer being buffed (basically unusable move and even worse now since everyone got multi-armor) into a single hit ground pound or something and specially a sword starting string (the one thing I've been campaigning for for ages) to have at least something to do in the neutral game apart from checking with D4. Instead this went unchecked and he got duckable tick throws because potato. He is very dangerous but his weaknes is still huge and he's still really unsafe (and even more now keep reading).

- F12 going from 0 on block to -7 is HUGE for this character and his post hammer game. HUGE. You can't imagine how big this is for his gameplan.

- F42 getting its cancel advantage destroyed (just so he can use it as a tick throw which he will almost never use anyway as there are better options) had a HUGE impact too as he no longer can connect EX Hammer from it and this change nerfed to the ground his midscreen damage from the B2 OH as now he can't go for damaging combos from it because this string drops in most situations when cancelled into the new command grab instead of the old string. One of the strengths the character had was the meterless damage midscreen and that was nerfed big time to compensate for the tick throws.


Yes, he's really dangerous when he gets in with momentum... but he already had unsafe mixups before anyway. Increasing the number of possible things he can use on the mix while nerfing the only decent tools he had outside of mixups just makes his strengths better and his weaknesses worse.

Not saying he's worse, and yeah he's really dangerous when he gets in and I still need to have the whole picture with every character in the new meta completly clear, but the character didn't improve as much as everyone is saying, not by a long shot and there are times where I consider switching to UB or something. I still think the sword starting string and air hammer buff (and maybe making the dagger move a special move but not a command grab) would've been better for him than randomly deciding to make him a command grab character but ignoring his neutral game.
 
All of that got nerfed in this patch
- footsie game was nerfed
- damage was partly nerfed (still hits similar damage, but execution is much much harder)
- conversion are more or less the same
- tick throws are for late in a set come back if the opponent knows how to defend
- neutral cmd throw is decent, but is generally only worth the risk when he has bar

Overall his mix up game got buffed in terms of options, but they are much more unsafe.
His neutral was nerfed cos of the f42 change (huge damage nerf on it, and no longer able to hitconfirm for any 'good' damage without bar)
Damage nerf is minor overall for most other strings
You are 100% correct, his damage has been sacked down, took away what I considered his signature move cold blooded cancelability into ex hammer, did nothing for the best d2 in the game, way to slow, so no change, and please correct me if I am wrong but go lab his f33 into hammer, ex hammer, burst and bomb, if the f33 get blocked, there is a gap now into the special, mainly with hammer and ex hammer and he gets royally nailed, full kombo punish, and that did not happen prior to the patch, they should have left him alone or just given him a faster d1, d2 and f1, and lose the anal puncture and anal assault, this is just my opinion and at best iam an average player, but day one I saw that he got screwed over completely, bring back my COLD BLOODED mother fuckers, I had so much fun with that kombo
 
His what? You mean D4 checks?

Also his midscreen meterless damage took a big hit (B2 isn't a reliable combo starter midscreen anymore, you mostly have to settle for F42Slide now after a B2). The rest of his meterless combos are more or less fine but harder to execute and it's not worth spending bars on most of them anymore.

I'm going to quote myself from a different thread explaining how IMO his strengths were buffed when it wasn't neccessary/it doesn't really upgrade his gameplan and his weaknesses were either not addressed or made even worse:
But the thing is prepatch he has CRAZY meterless damage, now he has decent damage. His damage is still viable its just not as crazy
 

Lokheit

Noob
f33 into hammer, ex hammer, burst and bomb, if the f33 get blocked, there is a gap now into the special
F33 always had a hige gap on special cancel, you could always jump over the hammers on reaction after a block and there was a gimmick to bait armor using F33 into EX Hammer because it was so slow that the opponent's armor would hit first, your armor would absorb it and then you would launch him.
 
F33 always had a hige gap on special cancel, you could always jump over the hammers on reaction after a block and there was a gimmick to bait armor using F33 into EX Hammer because it was so slow that the opponent's armor would hit first, your armor would absorb it and then you would launch him.
You are absolutely correct, I forgot about the armor for ex hammer, and that it would absorb and then the opponent would still get launched, thanks for reminding me, in your,opinion who is better cryo or gm at this point
 

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
Ok so his damage was lowered but now he has more opportunities to land that damage.

On top of that he has 13% unblockable into a hard knockdown (armor on ex), which is huge in a game with weakened armored reversals. Cryo Subs meta is developing, and grapple characters mantra has always been make the opponent afraid of getting hit by command grabs. Once your start focusing on defending tick setups, you forget about regular throws, frame traps, off timing ticks, or other creative strategies. You cannot defend against everything. It's only a matter of when you get opened up, not if.

We also know Cryo Sub is extremely dangerous in the corner. We've seen it against Foxes set with REO, Foxy, and SCR. In regards to the latter, there were a few instances where Fox gave up the corner against Wound in top8 and subsequently lost the round, ultimately the match. If Sonic would've beat Wound who knows where he would've placed the character. Either way Cryo is very good, so enough downplaying.
 
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Gilbagz

Joker here~
Ok so his damage was lowered but now he has more opportunities to land that damage.

On top of that he has 13% unblockable into a hard knockdown (armor on ex), which is huge in a game with weakened armored reversals. Cryo Subs meta is developing, and grapple characters mantra has always been make the opponent afraid of getting hit by command grabs. Once your start focusing on defending tick setups, you forget about regular throws, frame traps, off timing ticks, or other creative strategies. You cannot defend against everything. It's only a matter of when you get opened up, not if.

We also know Cryo Sub is extremely dangerous in the corner. We've seen it against Foxes set with REO, Foxy, and SCR. In regards to the latter, there were a few instances where Fox gave up the corner against Wound in top8 and subsequently lost the round, ultimately the match. If Sonic would've beat Wound who knows where he would've placed the character. Either way Cryo is very good, so enough downplaying.
@Lokheit i've been thinking about the cmd throw more. Honestly without bar, its better to just normal throw. Sure they can tech and it does 1% less, but its 6f faster, and has a tonne less recovery.
Cmd throw without bar is basically a risky throw for the chance of a safe jump set up. Would rather take normal throw and pressure off the advantage from that. They are both hard knockdowns regardless.
In the corner raw cmd grab is decent, cos you get the njk set up which loops at least based on wake ups.
 

Lokheit

Noob
@Lokheit i've been thinking about the cmd throw more. Honestly without bar, its better to just normal throw. Sure they can tech and it does 1% less, but its 6f faster, and has a tonne less recovery.
Cmd throw without bar is basically a risky throw for the chance of a safe jump set up. Would rather take normal throw and pressure off the advantage from that. They are both hard knockdowns regardless.
In the corner raw cmd grab is decent, cos you get the njk set up which loops at least based on wake ups.
Yeah lately I've been thinking that too, both are duckable anyway and the damage difference is even lower than 1 (just 0.5 as decimals counts). The main advantage as you said is the post hammer guaranteed jump but unless you're using it for the armor on the EX one, you could eat a jab into combo in the process. I'm not used to command grab characters and at first my mindset was "I should be throwing with the exclusive move" but the regular throw being much faster is still a tool that you have to use.

Something that would please Cryo haters and Cryo real players would be to make the command throw 13 frames like Erron Black's one, this way you get fewer tick throws as the speed increase means less gaps, pleasing the haters whose main problem is the amount of ticks he has, while making it almost as fast as regular throws for raw use and allowing you to connect F42xxPP after a B2 against ducking or far away opponents. And as F42 wouldn't be a tick throw anymore, they could revert the cancel advantage so F42 can cancel into EX Hammer again.

Win-win for haters and players IMO.