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Question - Jason Voorhees Why Does Jason Need Nerfs?

BoromiRofGeo

Kombatant
''because a kang or tremor player wasn't fast enough to react to the 1 frame gap to counter poke.''
tremors d1 is what, 8 frame start up? explain to me how tremor should respond to jason's 6+2=8 frame d1.
you have to be frame perfect.
worse, that idiot, takedas d3 is +1 or smth. gl fighting poke wars against it.
 

Meep8345

Apprentice
Why is it when someone says just lab it bro it's always the dumbest stuff that actually is somewhat a problem but they want to act like there's a simple solution.Getting pratically an infinite on certain characters is so fucking dumb. But the fucked up thing is that you have to guess from his d1 he basically pressures from it... Literally mashing d1 as Jason will get them conditioned to start poking him back which he can then just steal their turns by blocking their poke and doing whatever he wants like a b1 or d1 command grab. Now it would be 100% ok if he didn't have amazing throw pressure. Counter poking him is something you can do but do you really just wanna give up your turn like that on a read he'll be mashing it. Most good players use fast strings as their counter poke and Jason blows that up easily. Not even mileena's 11f mid stops his d1 sheninagans
 

Meep8345

Apprentice
everything else he has is fine but no character should have a poke that fast can command grab from and is only -2. 6f pokes in general are stupid
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
tremors d1 is what, 8 frame start up? explain to me how tremor should respond to jason's 6+2=8 frame d1.
you have to be frame perfect.
worse, that idiot, takedas d3 is +1 or smth. gl fighting poke wars against it.
What you're describing isn't actually a problem. The problem is that Tremor, Sub-Zero, and Liu Kang have 9 frame pokes at best. They can't be frame perfect to trade at all. That's pretty much the only problem.

Also, while Takeda's d3 is plus, it's also much slower, making the window to counterpoke larger. At best, he can d3, which grants a d1 against a lot of characters, but after that he's -4.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
What you're describing isn't actually a problem. The problem is that Tremor, Sub-Zero, and Liu Kang have 9 frame pokes at best. They can't be frame perfect to trade at all. That's pretty much the only problem.

Also, while Takeda's d3 is plus, it's also much slower, making the window to counterpoke larger. At best, he can d3, which grants a d1 against a lot of characters, but after that he's -4.
Pokes shouldn't be plus regardless unless they are like, F/T D2 levels of slow. And that's not even a poke
 
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I personally find Scorpion's d3 more annoying than Jason's d1. Even though Jason's d1 is more instantly repeatable, Scorpion will d3 several times throughout the match and you basically just have to accept the chip damage and adjust to block it because he is always going to be safe.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Grapplers wouldn't be great if you couldn't special cancell pokes. Goro would be really bad without it.

Anyway, a lot of the replies here have taught me something new about Jason.

If it really is an infinite, if there is 100% no way to escape for some characters, than it needs to change.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I personally find Scorpion's d3 more annoying than Jason's d1. Even though Jason's d1 is more instantly repeatable, Scorpion will d3 several times throughout the match and you basically just have to accept the chip damage and adjust to block it because he is always going to be safe.
You haven't played against Leatherface have you? :p
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Grapplers wouldn't be great if you couldn't special cancell pokes. Goro would be really bad without it.

Anyway, a lot of the replies here have taught me something new about Jason.

If it really is an infinite, if there is 100% no way to escape for some characters, than it needs to change.
NRS could make it so you can only cancel command grabs on block with pokes.
 
E

Eldriken

Guest
Grapplers wouldn't be great if you couldn't special cancell pokes. Goro would be really bad without it.

Anyway, a lot of the replies here have taught me something new about Jason.

If it really is an infinite, if there is 100% no way to escape for some characters, than it needs to change.
Well, I think it's something along the lines that Jason can get somewhere around 5 d1s on block before he has to move closer to the opponent so his d1 doesn't whiff. This is corner specific. I'm not 100% sure if I'm right about this.

However, if Tremor, Liu Kang or Sub-Zero are in the corner and Jason's d1'ing them to "death" and he makes them scared to counterpoke or get out of the poke pressure (lol at having to say "poke pressure" wtf), he can easily move back in or he can b3d1 (the b3 here is a forward advancing mid) which is -2 on block and puts him right back where he was.

So, in a sense and by proper conditioning, it can be viewed as an infinite against the three aforementioned characters.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
NRS could make it so you can only cancel command grabs on block with pokes.
I wasn't just talking about grabs when it comes to Goro.

I don't think special canceling pokes is that big of a deal. You can armor or backdash quite a few. It's just a case of people accepting that it's a part of the game and move on
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
I wasn't just talking about grabs when it comes to Goro.

I don't think special canceling pokes is that big of a deal. You can armor or backdash quite a few. It's just a case of people accepting that it's a part of the game and move on
It's gross but it's been in the game so long, i've learned to accept it
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Well, I think it's something along the lines that Jason can get somewhere around 5 d1s on block before he has to move closer to the opponent so his d1 doesn't whiff. This is corner specific. I'm not 100% sure if I'm right about this.

However, if Tremor, Liu Kang or Sub-Zero are in the corner and Jason's d1'ing them to "death" and he makes them scared to counterpoke or get out of the poke pressure (lol at having to say "poke pressure" wtf), he can easily move back in or he can b3d1 (the b3 here is a forward advancing mid) which is -2 on block and puts him right back where he was.

So, in a sense and by proper conditioning, it can be viewed as an infinite against the three aforementioned characters.
I understand the logic. But people throw "block infinite" around for things that aren't true infinites. If it's a true infinite, then of course it should go.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Pokes shouldn't be plus regardless unless they are like, F/T D2 levels of slow. And that's not even a poke
Eh, I don't know. Personally, I don't see the problem with a plus poke, depending on the characters ability to enforce those plus frames. Takeda getting a d1 check against anyone with an 8frame or slower poke off of a 12 frame mid doesn't seem like a huge problem to me.

But I also recognize that I started my fighting game career in I:GAU, a land of 7f +1 combo starting pokes and worse. When that's your normal, I suppose it's pretty hard for pokes to really seem that messed up.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
What's gross about it? There are ways around it.

I don't understand what everyone's gripe is.
It's basically this. You're in a game. Your character has their tools, your opponent has an equal amount of tools (mostly). You are winning, the momentum is in your favor and there is a slight pause in this momentum and the opponent pokes you on block. One of two things happen. They are negative and it's your turn or they cancel into a special. Now let's say every time they cancel into a special and you get tagged because you think it's your turn, so you start to backdash out, which puts you both on about neutral ground and that's fine. HOWEVER! What happens when they don't cancel, you've been a force of momentum the entire time and then he pokes and doesn't cancel but you still backdash. The fact that on every poke it is "Give up momentum or take a full combo risk because they canceled on the low poke." other fighting games don't usually get full combos from your poke into special, in MK it is different. On top of every poke becoming a mixup of "cancel no cancel" we also have it being "no cancel or full combo because you didn't respect the cancel."
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
It's basically this. You're in a game. Your character has their tools, your opponent has an equal amount of tools (mostly). You are winning, the momentum is in your favor and there is a slight pause in this momentum and the opponent pokes you on block. One of two things happen. They are negative and it's your turn or they cancel into a special. Now let's say every time they cancel into a special and you get tagged because you think it's your turn, so you start to backdash out, which puts you both on about neutral ground and that's fine. HOWEVER! What happens when they don't cancel, you've been a force of momentum the entire time and then he pokes and doesn't cancel but you still backdash. The fact that on every poke it is "Give up momentum or take a full combo risk because they canceled on the low poke." other fighting games don't usually get full combos from your poke into special, in MK it is different. On top of every poke becoming a mixup of "cancel no cancel" we also have it being "no cancel or full combo because you didn't respect the cancel."
Sounds like your opponent is conditioning the fuck out of you.

Also, pokes into specials don't yield the same reward for every character.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Sounds like your opponent is conditioning the fuck out of you.

Also, pokes into specials don't yield the same reward for every character.
Fair enough, also the conditioning point is fair too. I don't let it bother me too much mostly because if you let that bother you too much, you get nothing done, I was just trying to shed some light on why people aren't a fan of it :)
 

Perdition

Your friendly neighborhood cynic
Nerf every character exactly the way people who main them whine about being "fine" or not OP. Then maybe the game will be in a good place.