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SALTY 50/50s man

hkriderz

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
I just got done playing illusions. Great set, ggs. It was close but he took it. But man I've begun to take this game serious less and less everyday.

During our sets we had a Lao mirror. PL was right. Some of the most fun I've had in this game. All about spacing and fundamentals.

Then our last set was Shaolin vs Tempest. Don't get me wrong, Illusions is a great player. But the match felt wrong. I kept getting hit with long range mixups and just dying. My armor is punishable and my normals can't compete. He was safe so he could keep doing it until you die not cause you got outplayed, you guessed wrong.

I admit I play GM sub. I will mix your ass in the corner. But only cause it's not easy being a Lao main in this game. There are fun matchups but at some point broken Demolitions, acidics, shotguns, shaolins, swarm queens, and quans get to you. It's not fun.

Whoever it was at NRS that thought it was a great idea to have a game with coin flips to lose 40% life each wrong guess should really revaluate their skills as a game developer. Hopefully MK11 or INJ2 saves us.
 
myri

myri

Time Warrior
This is exactly what I had a long think about yesterday after playing a long set against a swarm queen D'vorah and getting slaughtered. Getting hit with a meaty puddle for +22 (who the fuck knows why it's +22) and then I have to guess a 50/50 for a meterless 35-40% damage in the corner into another puddle.

It's hard to feel like my opponent is outplaying me or just being better when I just have to sit and hold a 50/50 which isn't really reactable (maybe just barely) for almost half my health bar into the same situation for no resources. It's also hard to play a character like Lao and try to whiff punish and play footsies when half the cast has a fast advancing mid that covers half the screen.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
All fighters have 50/50's to some degree. Or rather, "guessing" will always be prevalent, it's inevitable.

The problem arises when even if you guess right, you don't have the advantage. If you successfully block a 50/50, you should have a generous amount of time to punish your opponent. Otherwise, what discourages your opponent from simply continuously throwing them at you if there's little to no fear of "paying" for it?

Safe 50/50's should never exist. This creates a system that does the work for you. You don't have to open up the opponent when you can safely make them guess, and then not suffer when they finally guess right. Of course, the argument is to not be put into the "guessing situation" but c'mon now, in MKX getting in is incredibly easy.

I could say so much more but no one listens to non top players who write walls of text. The 50/50's specifcally in MKX are why I never did and never will be able to take MKX seriously on a competitive level. Kudos to those that can.
 
Atriox

Atriox

Here... I am a god!
This just happened to me two days ago. I was playing against a very good Cutthroat player and got really frustrated, he just 50/50 me to death.

Then you block a 50/50 and be like "yeah my turn!". nope cause my 50/50 is plus lulz get opened up by another 50/50

jesus fuck...
 
Temetias

Temetias

"MKX kid"
myri said:
This is exactly what I had a long think about yesterday after playing a long set against a swarm queen D'vorah and getting slaughtered. Getting hit with a meaty puddle for +22 (who the fuck knows why it's +22) and then I have to guess a 50/50 for a meterless 35-40% damage in the corner into another puddle.

It's hard to feel like my opponent is outplaying me or just being better when I just have to sit and hold a 50/50 which isn't really reactable (maybe just barely) for almost half my health bar into the same situation for no resources. It's also hard to play a character like Lao and try to whiff punish and play footsies when half the cast has a fast advancing mid that covers half the screen.
Click to expand...
It's +22 because if you get hit by it you kinda deserve it... It can be jumped out of. Yeah, it can be set up so it provides pressure but that's the whole gameplan for her isn't it? And 40% meterless?? That I wanna see.

Yeah, I agree with you that this game is way too heavily based around 50/50s but D'vorah ain't even close of being the biggest offender in that kategory.
 
myri

myri

Time Warrior
Temetias said:
It's +22 because if you get hit by it you kinda deserve it... It can be jumped out of. Yeah, it can be set up so it provides pressure but that's the whole gameplan for her isn't it? And 40% meterless?? That I wanna see.

Yeah, I agree with you that this game is way too heavily based around 50/50s but D'vorah ain't even close of being the biggest offender in that kategory.
Click to expand...
But I'm not getting hit by it, I'm blocking it, but then my opponent gets to be +22? For what reason? D'vorah hasn't spent any bar or anything on it and yet she gets a free mixup? I know there are ways out but you have to make a read.
 
Temetias

Temetias

"MKX kid"
myri said:
But I'm not getting hit by it, I'm blocking it, but then my opponent gets to be +22? For what reason? D'vorah hasn't spent any bar or anything on it and yet she gets a free mixup? I know there are ways out but you have to make a read.
Click to expand...
I actually meant to write "If you block it..", sorry my error. You just react and jump (or dash) out of it, the startup is really slow. No reason to block it.
 
x TeeJay o

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Temetias said:
Yeah, I agree with you that this game is way too heavily based around 50/50s but D'vorah ain't even close of being the biggest offender in that kategory.
Click to expand...
As a dvorah main since day 1, I'm sad you even spoke these absurd words lol. Dude she has everything. Even her "slow' bug toss is plus 20 ish. That's really dumb. Sure her gameplan is pressure but she shouldn't have insane plus frames on top of top tier footsies,safe 50/50s,42% 1 bar anywhere,and a meterless launcher that's +22. I'm sorry I love dvorah bae I say it ALL THE TIME. But she's dumb. She is aslo apart of the problem in this game. Don't give me no shit about hard cancels because for 1 they aren't that hard and 2, character execution doesn't mean anything at the highest level. To me, she is top 5 possibly top 3. But I can understand if others have diff opinions
 
x TeeJay o

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
Temetias said:
I actually meant to write "If you block it..", sorry my error. You just react and jump out of it, the startup is really slow. No reason to block it.
Click to expand...
Dude there are setups where you can't jp out. That's what the meaty setups mean. He can't jump he will get caught and launched for a full combo. He has to A.delay wakeup which will net him back into pressure B. Wakeup and get his hit of armor absorbed and she's safe so depending on who you are, you're getting punished. Or C. Quick stand, block the puddle, she's at +22 and you are screwed. I don't think anyone has a problem with f112 cancelled into swarm puddle that's not even a thing lol
 
myri

myri

Time Warrior
Temetias said:
I actually meant to write "If you block it..", sorry my error. You just react and jump (or dash) out of it, the startup is really slow. No reason to block it.
Click to expand...
Yeah I figured that's what you meant. I'm talking about when I've been knocked down after a combo in the corner and they use it for meaty pressure. Like I can do a armoured wakeup but then they might do an armour breaking setup or bait my armour for a punish. I can delay wakeup and jump after the puddle but that's only if they decide not to immediately do a 50/50 because I'll get hit trying to jump out. Everything is a read at that point and if you don't make the right one you're back to square one. And then you may just have to hold run cancel pressure and guess when a throw is coming. You have to make read after read after read and it is very unlikely that you can guess everything correctly.
 
hkriderz

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Temetias said:
It's +22 because if you get hit by it you kinda deserve it... It can be jumped out of. Yeah, it can be set up so it provides pressure but that's the whole gameplan for her isn't it? And 40% meterless?? That I wanna see.

Yeah, I agree with you that this game is way too heavily based around 50/50s but D'vorah ain't even close of being the biggest offender in that kategory.
Click to expand...
Dvorahs puddle is one of the most broken moves in this game. It's a low combo starter that wins all trades besides really fast advancing mids, has a huge aerial hitbox for being a ground move, is plus 22 and sets up for a free 50 50. Idk if you have been in the corner against a high level swarm queen. It's pure hell. On top of safe 50 50s, she has easy plus frames pressure where poking gets you killed.

Oh I forgot. It has 0 recovery frames. ZERO. Yeah good luck. Also it hits backdashes. Prolly unless u do it very late. I haven't been able to do it
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
i agree with you that Lao just does not do well against shaolin anymore. A few patches back tempest did very well against all Jin variations, but reducing him down to +7 really took away his main equalizing tool in that matchup imo
 
Amplified$hotz

Amplified$hotz

I like Tekken 8
This happened to me like at 3 a.m. Today. Same matchup. I was outplaying the guy with Lao soooo bad. Then he corners me and mixes my life away. Moral of the story is don't play Kung Lao against Kung Jin unless you're sure you're much better than the player. It's a handicap match.
 
hkriderz

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Juggs said:
All fighters have 50/50's to some degree. Or rather, "guessing" will always be prevalent, it's inevitable.

The problem arises when even if you guess right, you don't have the advantage. If you successfully block a 50/50, you should have a generous amount of time to punish your opponent. Otherwise, what discourages your opponent from simply continuously throwing them at you if there's little to no fear of "paying" for it?

Safe 50/50's should never exist. This creates a system that does the work for you. You don't have to open up the opponent when you can safely make them guess, and then not suffer when they finally guess right. Of course, the argument is to not be put into the "guessing situation" but c'mon now, in MKX getting in is incredibly easy.

I could say so much more but no one listens to non top players who write walls of text. The 50/50's specifcally in MKX are why I never did and never will be able to take MKX seriously on a competitive level. Kudos to those that can.
Click to expand...
I agree. I mean even Lao has 50 50s technically. His revolves around his strings and whiff punishes. Is he going to finish his string of stagger or grab or d4? That is a good 50 50. You have options, it's not stupid, and if u do let go of block or get outfootsied you deserve to get hit.

It's just the other overhead low combo starter 50 50s that get me. Even if they are unsafe or safe or plus I don't feel like any character should have to have a guessing game situation. I think mk9's 50 50s were more like one option that combos and the other doesn't. They should have done that instead of the crap we have to deal with. It's not fun man.
 
hkriderz

hkriderz

Lin Kuei Scum, yellow robot enthusiast
Tweedy said:
Pretty much this.

I'd rather play Alien and have everyone bitch about me, then outplay people with Lao and lose because he doesn't play the game correctly.

But I love Lao and his weird hat/baggy pants. Hopefully he's good again on MK11.
Click to expand...
Dude Lao is great. Tempest is awesome (if his bugs were fixed and he had plus 12 again) But he doesn't even matter compared to half the cast in this game. He was a greatly designed character and I hope all the BS goes away next game rather than make him stupid so he can compete as well.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
myri said:
This is exactly what I had a long think about yesterday after playing a long set against a swarm queen D'vorah and getting slaughtered. Getting hit with a meaty puddle for +22 (who the fuck knows why it's +22) and then I have to guess a 50/50 for a meterless 35-40% damage in the corner into another puddle.

It's hard to feel like my opponent is outplaying me or just being better when I just have to sit and hold a 50/50 which isn't really reactable (maybe just barely) for almost half my health bar into the same situation for no resources. It's also hard to play a character like Lao and try to whiff punish and play footsies when half the cast has a fast advancing mid that covers half the screen.
Click to expand...
It doesn't guarantee a 50/50 it doesn't even guarantee pressure. This is Shitty compared to people doing 40+ into guaranteed 50/50's.plus 22 sounds like a stupid number but considering the start up it's really not as bad as it sounds. You can only get it out on knockdown or gimmicks
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Tweedy said:
People need to stop saying Lao has the best anti airs btw. He has low tier anti airs.

ANY CHARACTER CAN ANTI AIR WITH ARMOR

Normal spin gets stuffed by good jump punches and any jump kick. His standing 1 is horrendous. Why can't he have Mileena's standing 2 as a standing 1? I don't understand.
Click to expand...
Liu can't anti-air with armour really (but lol he has d2). Jacqui also can't really anti-air with armour (she ex bf4 but it whiffs more than not against several jump ins). Lao also gets a full combo off his anti-air with armour.

I think it's fair to say that Lao has good anti-airs given how great ex spin is at doing so.

That's kind of like saying special forces Sonya has poor 50/50s because she only really gets them when she has drone or Kano 50/50s aren't good because his need meter.
 
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