Discussion My tier list

[cR WoundCowboy]

To be fair it was 61% and u back in the corner

Well if a two bar (which shinnok can't build) character specific, corner specific combo is what we need to freak out over, i'd say Shinnok is fine.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

What I should have said is your FB is super fast and controls space mixed w hell sparks that goes 3/4 screen. It's a crap shoot to jump the Sparks and u can MB it for pressure afterwards or if it hits for a combo

Hell sparks is a very powerful tool, one that kenshi doesn't have

Or you can just block them and punish or respect the MB and go back to playing your game.

 

[D7X]

Since TYM has been rather dead lately, and EVO is just around the corner, I thought it would be cool to post a tier list to try and revitalize some discussion. I don't believe in separating characters by their variations because, so each character is ranked as a whole. Here is my tier list (characters within each group are ranked roughly in order)

S= the best characters in the game A=high tier characters B= Mid tier characters C= low tier characters D= the worst characters in the game.

S: Alien, Takeda, Sonya, Jax, Dvorah

A: Kung Jin, Mileena, Cassie, Kano, Johnny Cage, Quan Chi, Tremor, Liu Kang

B: Kotal, Jacqui, Erron Black, Ermac, Reptile, Triborg, Raiden, Ferra Torr, Tanya, Kenshi

C: Sub Zero, Predator, Shinnok, Kung Lao, Scorpion, Leatherface, Bo Rai Cho

D: Jason, Goro, Kitana

Let the salt flow....

I'm no expert on all these characters. Clarification on Tanya not being trash? Clarification on Tremor being high, and Reptile mid? BRC above Kitana. Just need clarifications. Also, Sub Zero is really that low to you?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Well if a two bar (which shinnok can't build) character specific, corner specific combo is what we need to freak out over, i'd say Shinnok is fine.

It's not just Kotal

Imposter gets a vortex off of stolen moves for most of the cast

Or you can just block them and punish or respect the MB and go back to playing your game.

I get 9% and 13% punish

Ex db4 kenjutsu doesn't reach when interrupting or as a punish after third spark

 

[D. R.]

Imposter gets a vortex off of stolen moves for most of the cast

Not true. About half tops and that's being generous if we're gonna talk application.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

It's not just Kotal

Imposter gets a vortex off of stolen moves for most of the cast


I get 9% and 13% punish

Ex db4 kenjutsu doesn't reach when interrupting or as a punish after third spark

It's about half the cast, and he is always unsafe without bar. He has no good way of building it outside of the trance shenanigans, which then gives up the mixup. As for the spark thing, you still aren't taking damage and I am. Shinnok is not going to kill by just making you block sparks. There are also plenty of characters who get big punishes and can also jump them more consistently.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

It's about half the cast, and he is always unsafe without bar. He has no good way of building it outside of the trance shenanigans, which then gives up the mixup. As for the spark thing, you still aren't taking damage and I am. Shinnok is not going to kill by just making you block sparks. There are also plenty of characters who get big punishes and can also jump them more consistently.

Ok good talk

I'll just agree to disagree on your placement of my character

 

[Tweedy]

Zoning and range easily beats out Jason (outside of the vanish from Relentless). And even then, Relentless has to do heaps and bounds more just to get in with characters with more range than him, let alone zoning characters. Unstoppable is even worse in that same aspect. B1 is a cool tool for countering characters with said range but outside of that and the potential threat of a tick throw (which can be armored,) he has nothing outside of DD3 to help him in that aspect.

Give or take I'll settle with seeing Jason in is B-/C. The lowest, I see him though honestly is D.

So your only explanation for why Unstoppable is lower than A, is that he gets beat out by zoning and range?

As a War God player I understand how not having a projectile can give up some neutral control, but no. No. It's not that big of a deal. You land a hit, do a DD3 set up, and they have to guess without the ability to make you guess if they're going to armor or not.

Can we talk about his command grabs that have insanely low recovery? His low option that's relatively safe? His big leg that's +9 on block, an overhead, and not easy to react to?

It's as if people just ignore the good stuff that the character had, when they're bad. It's the reverse Alien treatment. Okay, Jason had broke command grab recovery when he was bad? It doesn't count then, because he was bad. Now that he's good, that doesn't matter. Lets just examine DD3 in a box. Nothing else matters. Zoning is so oppressive on MKX when it helps my argument.

The thought of Unstoppable being D tier, is truly the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site to date. I'd say it's fact that this character isn't D tier lol. How would you feel if I put another A tier character in D tier? Wouldn't you feel the same?

Um Jax is D tier guys he gets zoned and his walk speed is questionable. Plus "he's Jax guys cmon".

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

U sure you saw that movie ? Or was in attendance that day of class ?

I'm thinking I should probably watch it again....as you were gentlemen

 

[Skylight1]

So your only explanation for why Unstoppable is lower than A, is that he gets beat out by zoning and range?

As a War God player I understand how not having a projectile can give up some neutral control, but no. No. It's not that big of a deal. You land a hit, do a DD3 set up, and they have to guess without the ability to make you guess if they're going to armor or not.

Can we talk about his command grabs that have insanely low recovery? His low option that's relatively safe? His big leg that's +9 on block, an overhead, and not easy to react to?

It's as if people just ignore the good stuff that the character had, when they're bad. It's the reverse Alien treatment. Okay, Jason had broke command grab recovery when he was bad? It doesn't count then, because he was bad. Now that he's good, that doesn't matter. Lets just examine DD3 in a box. Nothing else matters. Zoning is so oppressive on MKX when it helps my argument.

The thought of Unstoppable being D tier, is truly the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this site to date. I'd say it's fact that this character isn't D tier lol. How would you feel if I put another A tier character in D tier? Wouldn't you feel the same?

Um Jax is D tier guys he gets zoned and his walk speed is questionable. Plus "he's Jax guys cmon".

I wouldn't care about Jax because I don't play him so why do I need to care if he's d tier or not? I main Necromancer for Christ's sakes, you really think I care about tiers, lol? I also happen to play MOS Raiden, Ravenous/Ethereal Mileena, Commando Kano, Unstoppable Jason, and Mournful Kitana for Pete's sake! He's had these things before the big buff of the special buffs but what he suffered with was how to actually go in and use them on someone without sacrificing half of his life just to get in. Essentially, yeah he's better but he's still not that good off that you'll see him anytime soon in a high level setting.

 

[Tweedy]

I wouldn't care about Jax because I don't play him so why do I need to care if he's d tier or not? I main Necromancer for Christ's sakes, you really think I care about tiers, lol? I also happen to play MOS Raiden, Ravenous/Ethereal Mileena, Commando Kano, Unstoppable Jason, and Mournful Kitana for Pete's sake! He's had these things before the big buff of the special buffs but what he suffered with was how to actually go in and use them on someone without sacrificing half of his life just to get in. Essentially, yeah he's better but he's still not that good off that you'll see him anytime soon in a high level setting.

Lets please stop acting Like Mileena's other variations aren't very good, just because they aren't piercing.

Exactly, he had those things before, so those don't count. That's TYM logic. In reality, having stupid command grab recovery, means that you have stupid command grab recovery. Just because he had it when he didn't have enough tools to be a good character, doesn't mean that it doesn't count now that he's dumb. This is like accepted logic on this site that just doesn't work lol.

It doesn't take half of your life to get in on anyone on this game. That's just all you can come up with, for why Unstoppable is bad. Besides having to get in on people, the character is retarded. Having to get in isn't a deal breaker at all. It never has been on this game.

Based on you listing Unstoppable, Commando and the non-Piercing variations, I can only assume that you like the low tier god gimmick, and you hate that these characters are actually pretty good now.

As many people have said, seeing a character at a high level, doesn't prove everything. That's just grasping at straws. It's soooo grasping at straws, that you might as well just say "Well fuck, zoning isn't a big deal and he's so dirty, let me just grasp at straws.", because that's basically what "you don't see him at a high level", means. Everyone knows that. Dragon's Fire Liu Kang never made a top 8, A List has made one top 8. Most of the people in this community haven't even explored Unstoppable after the buffs.

Aye bro I play Tarkatan and Konjurer for pete's sake. They're not Acidic so they must be fair. I guarantee if Dragon never picked up Tarkatan, this would be the mentality, because this is how people are with Mileena. Her other variations are like SLIGHTLY less dumb, but because they're not piercing, they're low tier? lol

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

I think jin can do what she can, plus he has safer offense and a safer armored move. I think his footsies are very comparable to her.

I think Jax is one of the best characters in this game because of his dominant footsies (which says something in this game), high damage output, and the ease with which he can start his offense. The only knock on him is that he is unsafe, but i think that his damage, multiple mixup options, and the amount of times he enforces his guesses on you makes up for it.

Dvorah has one of the absolute most broken okie games in MKXL as well as top notch movement and good footsies. This game is all about the reward you get for being right, and dvorah's is much better than mileena's. While it's true that her armored move isn't good, I still would put her above mileena. It is possible that they are closer together but I can't see how there would be this huge gap.

Raiden is a mid tier character because while his footsies are pretty strong, he is very unsafe. However his reward is very good when he is right so he is never really out of a match.

Kenshi can do what about shinnok does, but better. Before you flame me, think about it. They both control space (which isn't enough to make either top in this game) except that kenshi does a lot more damage when he is right, can be safer off of everything and has a non fuzzyable 50/50. Even if you say that shinnok's zoning is better (which I don't think is true) how is his offense not better?

As for Tanya, I think that she can still effectively do what she was designed to do. The main difference is that she can't safely mitigate everyone's options out of the rekkas and on wakeup. I don't see why this character is bad and i think it's possible that she's even higher on my list.

Kung Jin can't do what Mileena does because he doesn't get 35% meterless. He doesn't have a meterless pop up that low profiles. He doesn't have staggerable moves. Most of his shit is interruptable. Even his up kick/delayed drop is interruptable. He doesn't have a special that low profiles, anti airs and is a combo starter. His long range moves are not safe by themselves. He doesn't have a tele to get out of zoning battles that he can make semi safe with an air sai. He has mixups sure but they are literally all fuzzyable.

Idk what you think Shaolin can do like her.

You are comparing Raiden not being safe to Boneshaper (whom you use, I won't even touch Imposter) who has the best keep out tool in the game in Hell sparks that can be MB to make it safe to continue pressure, 50/50 or whatever...or it will pop up for combo once again. Boneshaper has one of the highest block and hit stun in a projectile to go along with some of the best range in the game so you can't even backdash his low option. Oh yeah he has a low scoop which is a non fuzzyable 50/50 when you cancel it mid combo. Low scoop has armor and extends around half screen, maybe just under. I don't see how Kenshi's slow normals and ridiculous recovery compete.

You are taking completely out of the consideration which of those characters are unsafe compared to Shinnok who is, by majority, safe.

Dvorah and Jax are both very good. Neither on Mileena level. They both allow you to play your game to some extent and Mileena does not. You have to play her spacing, you have to block her ball roll that low profiles 90% of the moves on the game and even if you can play her game well and go 5-5 with her...you still have to work infinitely harder. She always has meter because she doesn't need it for combos. Her combos can restand you after 30+% and her b12 covers every aspect of the games meta. It anti airs into combos, can be hit confirmed, whiff punishes, armor breaks, staggers, cancelable after both b1 and b12 which makes her stagger grabs hard to deal with.

 

[Skylight1]

Lets please stop acting Like Mileena's other variations aren't very good, just because they aren't piercing.

Exactly, he had those things before, so those don't count. That's TYM logic. In reality, having stupid command grab recovery, means that you have stupid command grab recovery. Just because he had it when he didn't have enough tools to be a good character, doesn't mean that it doesn't count now that he's dumb. This is like accepted logic on this site that just doesn't work lol.

It doesn't take half of your life to get in on anyone on this game. That's just all you can come up with, for why Unstoppable is bad. Besides having to get in on people, the character is (soap bar in my mouth). Having to get in isn't a deal breaker at all. It never has been on this game.

Based on you listing Unstoppable, Commando and the non-Piercing variations, I can only assume that you like the low tier god gimmick, and you hate that these characters are actually pretty good now.

As many people have said, seeing a character at a high level, doesn't prove everything. That's just grasping at straws. It's soooo grasping at straws, that you might as well just say "Well fuck, zoning isn't a big deal and he's so dirty, let me just grasp at straws.", because that's basically what "you don't see him at a high level", means. Everyone knows that. Dragon's Fire Liu Kang never made a top 8, A List has made one top 8. Most of the people in this community haven't even explored Unstoppable after the buffs.

Aye bro I play Tarkatan and Konjurer for pete's sake. They're not Acidic so they must be fair. I guarantee if Dragon never picked up Tarkatan, this would be the mentality, because this is how people are with Mileena. Her other variations are like SLIGHTLY less dumb, but because they're not piercing, they're low tier? lol

I use low tier variations only with MOS and Necromancer. The rest are above B tier or at least in the B tier. I appreciate that certain characters get better but if they get over buffed, they should get nerfed. Bottom line.

 

[snort]

I may do it

Your always right about everything, everyone else is wrong and trolling.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Kung Jin can't do what Mileena does because he doesn't get 35% meterless. He doesn't have a meterless pop up that low profiles. He doesn't have staggerable moves. Most of his shit is interruptable. Even his up kick/delayed drop is interruptable. He doesn't have a special that low profiles, anti airs and is a combo starter. His long range moves are not safe by themselves. He doesn't have a tele to get out of zoning battles that he can make semi safe with an air sai. He has mixups sure but they are literally all fuzzyable.

Idk what you think Shaolin can do like her.

You are comparing Raiden not being safe to Boneshaper (whom you use, I won't even touch Imposter) who has the best keep out tool in the game in Hell sparks that can be MB to make it safe to continue pressure, 50/50 or whatever...or it will pop up for combo once again. Boneshaper has one of the highest block and hit stun in a projectile to go along with some of the best range in the game so you can't even backdash his low option. Oh yeah he has a low scoop which is a non fuzzyable 50/50 when you cancel it mid combo. Low scoop has armor and extends around half screen, maybe just under. I don't see how Kenshi's slow normals and ridiculous recovery compete.

You are taking completely out of the consideration which of those characters are unsafe compared to Shinnok who is, by majority, safe.

Dvorah and Jax are both very good. Neither on Mileena level. They both allow you to play your game to some extent and Mileena does not. You have to play her spacing, you have to block her ball roll that low profiles 90% of the moves on the game and even if you can play her game well and go 5-5 with her...you still have to work infinitely harder. She always has meter because she doesn't need it for combos. Her combos can restand you after 30+% and her b12 covers every aspect of the games meta. It anti airs into combos, can be hit confirmed, whiff punishes, armor breaks, staggers, cancelable after both b1 and b12 which makes her stagger grabs hard to deal with.

Scoop is 100% fuzzyable in the string and and sparks don't give shinnok a mixup when they are used raw; they aren't plus enough. Jin does less damage obviously but he has great mobility and nornals that double as his mixup. He has a good armored move and a low projectile that can murder people in trades when mbed. I'm not sure that i buy his mixups are fuzzyable, but I am 100% sure that all of shinnok's mixups are fuzzyable.

 

[snort]

Or you can just block them and punish or respect the MB and go back to playing your game.

Pig picks Kenjitsu against Shinnok, pushes him full screen with push, then complains about Shinnoks OP hell sparks zoning thats -22 on block. Theres no use in trying to get to him, don't bother.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

Scoop is 100% fuzzyable in the string and and sparks don't give shinnok a mixup when they are used raw; they aren't plus enough. Jin does less damage obviously but he has great mobility and nornals that double as his mixup. He has a good armored move and a low projectile that can murder people in trades when mbed. I'm not sure that i buy his mixups are fuzzyable, but I am 100% sure that all of shinnok's mixups are fuzzyable.

I may have been wrong about the scoop I'll admit that. After I sent it I was like wait...but you don't have to buy that KJ mixups are fuzzyable lol the fact Forever King can react to f2 and so can plenty others are enough for me to know that not only are they fuzzyable, they are reactable. Kung Jin's mobility is based solely off of up kick, lunge kick and divekick. 2 are punishable on block, one can be uppercutted since drop has low priority. Additionally, KJ flip kick EX only has armor until he is fully in the air in my experience and it flips over forward advancing moves like his b123 string. The only thing he can do in this game at the same level of Mileena is convert off of anti airs and his air normals are better. She owns the rest of the meta. And I agree his trades are good with MB low chakram...but that means he can trade well, only if he burns a meter. His reg chakram doesn't have hardly any advantage on hit and is Hella negative on block. It has a slow start up meaning it is only conventional in 3/4 to full screen because people react, jump over and full combo punish...


Also, b21 starter...the 3 and 3+4 string enders are fuzzyable, too...

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Lets please stop acting Like Mileena's other variations aren't very good, just because they aren't piercing.

Exactly, he had those things before, so those don't count. That's TYM logic. In reality, having stupid command grab recovery, means that you have stupid command grab recovery. Just because he had it when he didn't have enough tools to be a good character, doesn't mean that it doesn't count now that he's dumb. This is like accepted logic on this site that just doesn't work lol.

It doesn't take half of your life to get in on anyone on this game. That's just all you can come up with, for why Unstoppable is bad. Besides having to get in on people, the character is (soap bar in my mouth). Having to get in isn't a deal breaker at all. It never has been on this game.

Based on you listing Unstoppable, Commando and the non-Piercing variations, I can only assume that you like the low tier god gimmick, and you hate that these characters are actually pretty good now.

As many people have said, seeing a character at a high level, doesn't prove everything. That's just grasping at straws. It's soooo grasping at straws, that you might as well just say "Well fuck, zoning isn't a big deal and he's so dirty, let me just grasp at straws.", because that's basically what "you don't see him at a high level", means. Everyone knows that. Dragon's Fire Liu Kang never made a top 8, A List has made one top 8. Most of the people in this community haven't even explored Unstoppable after the buffs.

Aye bro I play Tarkatan and Konjurer for pete's sake. They're not Acidic so they must be fair. I guarantee if Dragon never picked up Tarkatan, this would be the mentality, because this is how people are with Mileena. Her other variations are like SLIGHTLY less dumb, but because they're not piercing, they're low tier? lol

Agree with everything except the last part. Mileena's other variations don't hold a candle to Piercing at all. They're not bad but Mileena's viability would be 98% unchanged if they never existed.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I may have been wrong about the scoop I'll admit that. After I sent it I was like wait...but you don't have to buy that KJ mixups are fuzzyable lol the fact Forever King can react to f2 and so can plenty others are enough for me to know that not only are they fuzzyable, they are reactable. Kung Jin's mobility is based solely off of up kick, lunge kick and divekick. 2 are punishable on block, one can be uppercutted since drop has low priority. Additionally, KJ flip kick EX only has armor until he is fully in the air in my experience and it flips over forward advancing moves like his b123 string. The only thing he can do in this game at the same level of Mileena is convert off of anti airs and his air normals are better. She owns the rest of the meta. And I agree his trades are good with MB low chakram...but that means he can trade well, only if he burns a meter. His reg chakram doesn't have hardly any advantage on hit and is Hella negative on block. It has a slow start up meaning it is only conventional in 3/4 to full screen because people react, jump over and full combo punish...


Also, b21 starter...the 3 and 3+4 string enders are fuzzyable, too...

King isn't reacting to it, you are being read.

 

[Tweedy]

Agree with everything except the last part. Mileena's other variations don't hold a candle to Piercing at all. They're not bad but Mileena's viability would be 98% unchanged if they never existed.

I mean I can't disagree more.

Edit: I agree about the unchanged viability, because you don't need the other variations. The other variations are still dumb, though.

 

[STRYKIE]

Agree with everything except the last part. Mileena's other variations don't hold a candle to Piercing at all. They're not bad but Mileena's viability would be 98% unchanged if they never existed.

Ravenous is kinda redundant but you'd be wise not to underestimate Ethereal.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ravenous is kinda redundant but you'd be wise not to underestimate Ethereal.

I know she's solid, but what matchups is she favorable over piercing?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I mean I can't disagree more.

Edit: I agree about the unchanged viability, because you don't need the other variations. The other variations are still dumb, though.

That's literally the only point I was going for lmao. The unchanged viability part.

 

[Tweedy]

I know she's solid, but what matchups is she favorable over piercing?

Probably none.

It's just insane to me to act like variations that you don't need are somehow low tier, because the other variation is just that good. Maybe I shouldn't have put slightly in all capital letters. Maybe Piercing is an entire tier above them, but low tier? If they get buffed like they're low tier in the possible KP3, we'll be wanting this piercing back lol.

Edit: I know that wasn't your stance. I'm more so talking about Skylight and just in general.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Probably none.

It's just insane to me to act like variations that you don't need are somehow low tier, because the other variation is just that good. Maybe I shouldn't have put slightly in all capital letters. Maybe Piercing is an entire tier above them, but low tier? If they get buffed like they're low tier in the possible KP3, we'll be wanting this piercing back lol.

Edit: I know that wasn't your stance. I'm more so talking about Skylight and just in general.

Ok. But for the record iv never said they were low tier.