Match-Up Discussion - Pyromancer Vak's Pyromancer MU Chart

[EdenianWarrior]

Who doesn't out damage Tanya?

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Dualist 5-5 against pyro? Can you elaborate?

 

[Yoaks]

Lobo vs Tanya is 8-2.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Dualist 5-5 against pyro? Can you elaborate?

I can frustrate dualist with Pyromancer because his fireballs are not as good as his other variations and my ex fireball keeps him at bay. The only thing he has going in this mu is pressure transform cancel and ex fireball. Their both damage is almost the same and they both require meter highly in this matchup. Liu doesnt take anything away from tanya with dualist, neither does tanya. Thus making this mu even.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

I can frustrate dualist with Pyromancer because his fireballs are not as good as his other variations and my ex fireball keeps him at bay. The only thing he has going in this mu is pressure transform cancel and ex fireball. Their both damage is almost the same and they both require meter highly in this matchup. Liu doesnt take anything away from tanya with dualist, neither does tanya. Thus making this mu even.

Dualist doesn't need meter. Dualist has a higher damage output than Tanya too.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Dualist doesn't need meter. Dualist has a higher damage output than Tanya too.

What about ex bright fireball pressure? And if you count dark orb as a thing that will always hit then sure he outdamages her. He needs meter to launch me no?

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

What about ex bright fireball pressure? And if you count dark orb as a thing that will always hit then sure he outdamages her. He needs meter to launch me no?

Ex fireball is plus 15. But does he have to spend the bar for pressure? No. His stance switches provide plus frames without any resources.
He can also stance switch on hit to link strings. Bnb damage midscreen ranges from 20-33% meterless and in the corner 30-40% meterless. And the orbs will play a huge factor in the corner.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Ex fireball is plus 15. But does he have to spend the bar for pressure? No. His stance switches provide plus frames without any resources.
He can also stance switch on hit to link strings. Bnb damage midscreen ranges from 20-33% meterless and in the corner 30-40% meterless. And the orbs will play a huge factor in the corner.

Oh i thought he get only meterless 23% from stance switch. Plus 15 for guaranteed pressure..? No?

 

[waveman355]

I find the deck is heavily stacked in Pyro Tanya's favor against Kobu or Draginata. Very easy to keep Kobu away from you to avoid the B1, 2+4 onslaughts. High Arc fireballs similarly keep away incoming Draginata's from pogo'ing you. Then again, I don't get many Tanya v. Tanya tele-contests lately.

Pyro is so hard to beat any variation of Scorpion with, especially Inferno. Can block Low Demon and he's already teleported behind you before you can get anything off.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Oh i thought he get only meterless 23% from stance switch. Plus 15 for guaranteed pressure..? No?

The plus 15 gives you a true blockstring but you have to run cancel it.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I perfectly understand what you are saying, I'm just saying I think you are totally wrong giving the same number to Fisticuffs than the other variations, at least A-List.

First of all, Fisticuffs has no real pressure, even less vs Tanya for the reasons I mentioned above. You also have to put f3 out of the equation. A-list has the same projectiles, wakeups, and better use of every normal, including F3.

For the sake of coherence, you should either put Fisticuffs as a 5-5, or A-List as a 3-7. But with the same number it simply does not make sense. Or put a N/A if you don't have experience in the matchup, I think you did that with Balanced.

It can be somehow reasonable to put Stunt Double on the same level in this matchup because his projectile sucks in comparison. But Fisticuffs definitely should NOT have the same number as A-List xD

Variation less Johnny beats pyro 4-6 but a-list does not been her 3-7. Hence both fisticuffs and a-list have the same matchup number against her.

Does that make sense?

 

[ismael4790]

Variation less Johnny beats pyro 4-6 but a-list does not been her 3-7. Hence both fisticuffs and a-list have the same matchup number against her.

Does that make sense?

Makes sense if you assume "Variation less Johnny beats pyro 4-6", which imo is false.
Johnny's variationless tools (which are fisticuffs ones without speedbag) don't not include a proper threatening use of F3 at all, and they are commonly overrated by people who think of A-List when they think about Cage, and will continue to be.

Simple example: If Stunt Double or A-List hit you with a d4, you can shit in your pants because they follow with f3 and pressure starts (clones or cancels). That doesn't happen with variationless or fisticuffs, that can only follow with f34, f3~exforceball or an unsafe run and attempt to "pressure".

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

It is a very fun match, Tanya's ex fireball works wonders and shuts down Kitana. Yes Kitana does outdamage her but Tanya does not need to get in the air to condition Kitana. Strategy is make Kitana frustrated. Tanya builds meter faster and baits Kitana in this match up to charge and reflect and punishes easily. Tanya will take hit with fan to ensure that Kitana gets hit with fireball. Tanyas fireballs are +22 on hit and they also shut down Kitanas air game due to their arc. Tanya has decent pressure against Kitana with b312 because it leaves Tanya at plus 4-5 if they opponent is dusted. Tanya frustrates Kitana more.

But then what about Kitana's damage when she guesses right? And B312 has a gap. Both must guess but the damage is in Kitana's favor (if Tanya blocks ex db2 from Kitana, she punishes her for like 15%). The most frustrating shit about Pyro's B312 is that if Kitana ducks block the whole string, Kitana is pushed away so far from Tanya that her d1 whiffs. How do you know Tanya is +4 or 5 after dusted B312?
Zoning against Kitana doesn't help Tanya much in this matchup. She has the best movement speed in the game, you can throw like 2 fireballs and she's in your face. This matchup always ends up in close range footsie game

 

[Vak Phoenix]

But then what about Kitana's damage when she guesses right? And B312 has a gap. Both must guess but the damage is in Kitana's favor (if Tanya blocks ex db2 from Kitana, she punishes her for like 15%). The most frustrating shit about Pyro's B312 is that if Kitana ducks block the whole string, Kitana is pushed away so far from Tanya that her d1 whiffs. How do you know Tanya is +4 or 5 after dusted B312?
Zoning against Kitana doesn't help Tanya much in this matchup. She has the best movement speed in the game, you can throw like 2 fireballs and she's in your face. This matchup always ends up in close range footsie game

Simple, you throw Kitana when she has meter or
just do b31, or b31 ex or back teleport to bait. There are many ways to play the matchup. False, the pushback only occurs if Tanyas opponent is flip stanced or Tanya is flip stanced. How do i know its plus 4-5? I record ai doing dust b312 d1, and then i chose various characters and challenged tanyas d1 with other pokes or moves. Yes zoning against kitana helps tanya, because kitana is afraid to throw a fan after eating ex fireball way too lany times and being hit out of the air.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Makes sense if you assume "Variation less Johnny beats pyro 4-6", which imo is false.
Johnny's variationless tools (which are fisticuffs ones without speedbag) don't not include a proper threatening use of F3 at all, and they are commonly overrated by people who think of A-List when they think about Cage, and will continue to be.

Simple example: If Stunt Double or A-List hit you with a d4, you can shit in your pants because they follow with f3 and pressure starts (clones or cancels). That doesn't happen with variationless or fisticuffs, that can only follow with f34, f3~exforceball or an unsafe run and attempt to "pressure".

What do you mean less threatning? I think MKX has blurred minds and spoiled a lot of people.

F3... Just a variationless F3 is a better normal than all of Tanyas normals. Once she blocks it, she knows she is pressured, now it does not matter if the pressure is 3 F3s or Mimics that come from A-list and Stunt Double. Being pressured or variations that use F3 more extensively in their pressure does not make the matchup worse. It is a pure range and property of Johnny Cages base moves that he shares universally that beats Tanya.

Johnny has presence full screen against her with All variations and she cannot do much in range or upclose.

Blocking 3 f3s in match from Alist applies to every character, thus making the usage of his moves quite frequent due to his cancels and jailing.

Repeating myself so you understand, does not matter if its Alist or Fisticuffs or Stuntdouble, Tanya loses to all of them because of Johnny Cages universal moves.

For example, i am pretty sure you did not play MK9 competitevely but bare with me for a second. MK9 Base Johnny beats Sindel 6-4/7-3 right? Okay now that is because Johnny has better tools and everything, besides zoning. Now this base Johnny has 2 other variations that allow him to continue the pressure after his f3 is blocked for first time. But this does not apply only to Sindel anymore, these other 2 variations pressure everyone, therefore making the pressure from the other two variations universal. Yes, Sindel has to sit and block longer, but when she goes away shes easily shut down, outfootsies, anti aired, hit with armored shadow kick etc.

I truly hope that this makes sense and you realize that universal Johnnys moves beat Tanya. Even though some of the other variations force you to block longer.

I feel like devouring worms, just like birds to when they feed their young.

 

[ismael4790]

What do you mean less threatning? I think MKX has blurred minds and spoiled a lot of people.

F3... Just a variationless F3 is a better normal than all of Tanyas normals. Once she blocks it, she knows she is pressured, now it does not matter if the pressure is 3 F3s or Mimics that come from A-list and Stunt Double. Being pressured or variations that use F3 more extensively in their pressure does not make the matchup worse. It is a pure range and property of Johnny Cages base moves that he shares universally that beats Tanya.

Johnny has presence full screen against her with All variations and she cannot do much in range or upclose.

Blocking 3 f3s in match from Alist applies to every character, thus making the usage of his moves quite frequent due to his cancels and jailing.

Repeating myself so you understand, does not matter if its Alist or Fisticuffs or Stuntdouble, Tanya loses to all of them because of Johnny Cages universal moves.

For example, i am pretty sure you did not play MK9 competitevely but bare with me for a second. MK9 Base Johnny beats Sindel 6-4/7-3 right? Okay now that is because Johnny has better tools and everything, besides zoning. Now this base Johnny has 2 other variations that allow him to continue the pressure after his f3 is blocked for first time. But this does not apply only to Sindel anymore, these other 2 variations pressure everyone, therefore making the pressure from the other two variations universal. Yes, Sindel has to sit and block longer, but when she goes away shes easily shut down, outfootsies, anti aired, hit with armored shadow kick etc.

I truly hope that this makes sense and you realize that universal Johnnys moves beat Tanya. Even though some of the other variations force you to block longer.

I feel like devouring worms, just like birds to when they feed their young.

I respect your opinion, but we will have to agree to disagree, as you clearly overrate Cage variationless tools. Don't worry, many people do it and it's because they have few experience vs variationless/fisticuffs.
It's your matchup chart, and your choice, but if you feel like you are playing a 4-6 with A-List and Fisticuffs, either you have extensive knowledge of A-List matchup, or 0 knowledge of Fisticuffs matchup. But Fisticuffs shouldn't have same mu numbers as A-List in any matchup besides those where the opponent has serious problems to wakeup or bad armored reversals.

Ask yungmonster, he also plays Tanya, and seems to see there's a difference when playing vs Fisticuffs and the other Cage variations as Tanya. https://testyourmight.com/threads/yungmonster12-revetleafing-tanya-matchup-chart-kobu-jutsu.60827/
He even puts it as a losing matchup for fisticuffs. I think it's closer to a 5-5.

"I feel like devouring worms, just like birds to when they feed their young."
You should get off your high horse, man. I have played you, and you are not in conditions to feed nobody, with all due respect. And even if you were, the sentence is out of place anyway.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

I respect your opinion, but we will have to agree to disagree, as you clearly overrate Cage variationless tools. Don't worry, many people do it and it's because they have few experience vs variationless/fisticuffs.
It's your matchup chart, and your choice, if you feel like you are playing a 4-6 with A-List and Fisticuffs, either you have extensive knowledge of A-List matchup, or 0 knowledge of Fisticuffs matchup. But Fisticuffs shouldn't have same mu numbers as A-List in any matchup besides those where the opponent has serious problems to wakeup.

Ask yungmonster, he also plays Tanya, and seems to see there's a difference when playing vs Fisticuffs and the other Cage variations as Tanya. https://testyourmight.com/threads/yungmonster12-revetleafing-tanya-matchup-chart-kobu-jutsu.60827/
He even puts it as a losing matchup for fisticuffs. I think it's closer to a 5-5.

"I feel like devouring worms, just like birds to when they feed their young."
You should get off your high horse, man. I have played you, and you are not in conditions to feed nobody, with all due respect.

I have grinded the matchup and i know the matchup, i tried really hard for you to understand broke down everything like a mother bird does to kids. With that you have proven that you are not capable of understanding and coping with reason or any of the metaphors.

I have lost to your balanced Kenshi with Naginata and Dvorah and i have no shame admitting that, it was just after xl patch and i did not know kenshi matchup at all. Also i have been told by many people that you beat them and you mock them, and then they tell you they did not know the matchup and u are like ok sure.

My high horse? There is none, i am the most dedicated Tanya player and that is a fact! I have great placings in offline scenes, where i have never seen you, whether it was Amsterdam, Rome, Rotterdam, Vienna, Germany, Czech Republic. Never have i seen you making any placements.

Anyone who knows me, knows that i always use reason and do not jump to conclusions. However looking at the facts there is no superior Tanya player comparing to me, just looking at my placings with her pre-patch and post patch.

I am at a place of grinding worms to people who do not understand a very basic and common knowlege of fighting games and are very spoiled by the fact that NRS listesns way too much to the fans. Unfortunately you fall under a category of casuals, hence you have not contributed anything to this community but a blabber of hipocricity. Where as me i have grinded out everything with my character to this point and made impact. Every Tanya player respects me, that is a fact. Where i have given tech, guides, combos, breakthroughs, offline placements, etc. what have you done?

Insulting me wont do you any good.

Adieu Chérie!

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Simple, you throw Kitana when she has meter or
just do b31, or b31 ex or back teleport to bait. There are many ways to play the matchup. False, the pushback only occurs if Tanyas opponent is flip stanced or Tanya is flip stanced. How do i know its plus 4-5? I record ai doing dust b312 d1, and then i chose various characters and challenged tanyas d1 with other pokes or moves. Yes zoning against kitana helps tanya, because kitana is afraid to throw a fan after eating ex fireball way too lany times and being hit out of the air.

lbh, B312 is the only decent normal Tanya has. What if Kitana reads a B31 or B31 tele? You give turn and let Kitana play her superior footsie game. Her walk speed is broken as hell and she has good range on some normals to whiff punish. Mournful and Assasin have excellent chip damage at close range, if you play this matchup so good that you can avoid being opened up by Kitana's big combos, you still lose the chip damage game to 2 variations of hers.
Tell me, who's the high level Kitana player that gave you matchup experience? Stuffs you said like "Yes zoning against kitana helps tanya, because kitana is afraid to throw a fan after eating ex fireball way too lany times and being hit out of the air" are so wrong. That's not how Kitana deals with better zoners, and we seriously doubt Tanya can outzone Royal Storm or Assasin

 

[Vak Phoenix]

lbh, B312 is the only decent normal Tanya has. What if Kitana reads a B31 or B31 tele? You give turn and let Kitana play her superior footsie game. Her walk speed is broken as hell and she has good range on some normals to whiff punish. Mournful and Assasin have excellent chip damage at close range, if you play this matchup so good that you can avoid being opened up by Kitana's big combos, you still lose the chip damage game to 2 variations of hers.
Tell me, who's the high level Kitana player that gave you matchup experience? Stuffs you said like "Yes zoning against kitana helps tanya, because kitana is afraid to throw a fan after eating ex fireball way too lany times and being hit out of the air" are so wrong. That's not how Kitana deals with better zoners, and we seriously doubt Tanya can outzone Royal Storm or Assasin

I am assuming that you do not know every frame of Tanya, but that is fine and i am here to tell you.

Kitana strategy is not to play footsies against Tanya and it is to zone her or chip her. Tanyas f2 outreachers and is faster than Kitanas f2. When Kitana goes on to zone Tanya, as i replied to a dear friend of mine @xKhaoTik Tanyas fireball has fire more hit advantage than Kitanas fan does. Which allows Tanya to gain advatage at another fireball where Kitana is forced to block and anticipate another fireball or run in.

Tanya with meter is extremely dangerous from full screen, sure Kitana goes on to reflect which has horrible startup and recovery frames, which literally is punished from fullscreen with air teleport jump in or run in f2. Sure Tanya staggers B31 and is at -4, Kitana reads it you block low and wait for your turn. The only way Kitana makes Tanya to respect is by doing 21 EX Sharpen in assassin which is her only plus pressure thing. Kitanas ex fan on block is irrelevant, because any attempt to press button besides armor after Tanya beats with instant air drill.

These two are very similar, Kitana cannot zone Tanya when Tanya has meter, and Tanya cannot zone Kitana if Kitana has a health lead.

I have never said that Tanya outzones Kitana, i said she dictates the match, and shuts down Kitanas zoning when she has meter. Also Kitana needs to throw at least 15 fans for her to gain meter, as for Tanya she has to throw 4 Fireballs, and because they are mid they are blocked most of the time.

The only pain in the ass that comes from kitana is post knockdown game with float, Tanya has hard time anti airing kitana and her ex teleport doesnt do that good at the arc that kitana is in. But in pyromancer ex dust is great for anti airing.

Yes Kitanas walkspeed is great but so is Tanyas, never have i said that Tanya fully zones Kitana just like HQT zones Naginata. If you saw my reply to my friend, you clearly see a statement that says that this is a fun match. Is there a projectile war? Of course there is, both have very different properties with projectiles that benefits both characters, Tanya cannot go in air much and neither can kitana if tanya has a bar of meter, which she always does.

I do play many high level kitanas, now tell me which high level Tanya do you play?

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Seems like you don't trust me because I'm nobody, I live half the globe away and all Tanyas I play against are unknown. Your arguements have flaws too.
@xKhaoTik @SonicFox5000 @SM StarGazer I would like to hear your comments about Pyro vs Kitana (any variation) matchups. Thanks a lot

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Seems like you don't trust me because I'm nobody, I live half the globe away and all Tanyas I play against are unknown. Your arguements have flaws too.
@xKhaoTik @SonicFox5000 @SM StarGazer I would like to hear your comments about Pyro vs Kitana (any variation) matchups. Thanks a lot

I have never said that you are a nobody! As you see i take kindly to responding to people with a big amount of matchup knowledge, that is if they are willing to cooperate!

Edit:

Location does not matter either, Tekken Master who is from middle east traveled through Europe and has made a big name and is well respected. Also @Pan1cMode is from Australia, which is 1,500 light years away from me, but i have huge respect for him because he grinds out matches, LABS, has high placings and has great knowledge. Have i played him? No. Do i respect and consider his opinion, absolutely! So please do not use location thing as an excuse either.

 

[ismael4790]

I have grinded the matchup and i know the matchup, i tried really hard for you to understand broke down everything like a mother bird does to kids. With that you have proven that you are not capable of understanding and coping with reason or any of the metaphors.

I have lost to your balanced Kenshi with Naginata and Dvorah and i have no shame admitting that, it was just after xl patch and i did not know kenshi matchup at all. Also i have been told by many people that you beat them and you mock them, and then they tell you they did not know the matchup and u are like ok sure.

My high horse? There is none, i am the most dedicated Tanya player and that is a fact! I have great placings in offline scenes, where i have never seen you, whether it was Amsterdam, Rome, Rotterdam, Vienna, Germany, Czech Republic. Never have i seen you making any placements.

Anyone who knows me, knows that i always use reason and do not jump to conclusions. However looking at the facts there is no superior Tanya player comparing to me, just looking at my placings with her pre-patch and post patch.

I am at a place of grinding worms to people who do not understand a very basic and common knowlege of fighting games and are very spoiled by the fact that NRS listesns way too much to the fans. Unfortunately you fall under a category of casuals, hence you have not contributed anything to this community but a blabber of hipocricity. Where as me i have grinded out everything with my character to this point and made impact. Every Tanya player respects me, that is a fact. Where i have given tech, guides, combos, breakthroughs, offline placements, etc. what have you done?

Insulting me wont do you any good.

Adieu Chérie!

There were 0 insults in my response, read better.

And I always respect people that respects, people that know how to win and how to lose. I only mock people that use pathetic excuses to justify their defeats and are just sore losers, it doesn't matter if they come from online or offline scenes. I could write a book with all the messages I received, and sadly you would be in one of its pages.

I am just a player, as much dedicated to the game as many others. And as every other player here, deserves respect. I'm not one of those that only respects people after looking at their name or their results, or who they won or lost against. You seem one of those, so in that case, just remember that I mopped you with a bottom tier character. Maybe that is enough for you to show a bit of respect.

You show you are in a high horse in the way you talk, and that is evident. Very few peole have the level to afford to do that (maybe two or three in this community), and you are not one of them. And even if you were, you would lose points doing so.

Peace men, I have better things to do than continuing this pointless conversation.

@YoloRoll1stHit This guy will not take you seriously if you don't have a known name, don't waste your time. His matchup charts are set in stone.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Seems like you don't trust me because I'm nobody, I live half the globe away and all Tanyas I play against are unknown. Your arguements have flaws too.
@xKhaoTik @SonicFox5000 @SM StarGazer I would like to hear your comments about Pyro vs Kitana (any variation) matchups. Thanks a lot

I would've NEVER thought this match was even, especially against RS. I've played alot of pyro's and it always felt like it was in Kitana's favor. But maybe vak knows something we don't. He is the most notable Tanya atm so I kinda have no choice but to trust his judgment.

I'm playing him tonight.

 

[EdenianWarrior]

I would've NEVER thought this match was even, especially against RS. I've played alot of pyro's and it always felt like it was in Kitana's favor. But maybe vak knows something we don't. He is the most notable Tanya atm so I kinda have no choice but to trust his judgment.

I'm playing him tonight.

Can you record that and post it on YouTube? I would LOVE to see you both play.

 

[OfficialYungmonster]

I would've NEVER thought this match was even, especially against RS. I've played alot of pyro's and it always felt like it was in Kitana's favor. But maybe vak knows something we don't. He is the most notable Tanya atm so I kinda have no choice but to trust his judgment.

I'm playing him tonight.

Record please <3 I think the match up is even