The Conclusion of MKXL at CEO 2016

[REO]

snip

The only reason Melee is so popular and has so much hype behind it is because of their own community. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's literally it. They don't pay groups of random people in sums of money to pretend that they're hype when their game is on stream. Their community is fueled by passion by the players who love the game.

It's the MK's communities fault for not being more hype than they currently are at events. It's also the MK's community fault for shunning top tier users ever since MK9 2011 and making the players feel bad as if it's a criminal offense to play to win.

And I'm not saying the NRS community isn't hype, or the tournaments aren't amazing, because they really are. But it's not fair to judge other communities or place any blame with the game when it's the own community that is in charge with how much hype or how highly their games love is expressed.


I mean, does anyone find it ironic that the biggest haters for MK9 and Injustice (and soon to be MKX when Injustice 2 is out) ARE many players from the NRS community?

 

[Skylight1]

The only reason Melee is so popular and has so much hype behind it is because of their own community. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's literally it. They don't pay groups of random people in sums of money to pretend that they're hype when their game is on stream. Their community is fueled by passion by the players who love the game.

It's the MK's communities fault for not being more hype than they currently are at events. It's also the MK's community fault for shunning top tier users ever since MK9 2011 and making the players feel bad as if it's a criminal offense to play to win.

And I'm not saying the NRS community isn't hype, or the tournaments aren't amazing, because they really are. But it's not fair to judge other communities or place any blame with the game when it's the own community that is in charge with how much hype or how highly their games love is expressed.


I mean, does anyone find it ironic that the biggest haters for MK9 and Injustice (and soon to be MKX when Injustice 2 is out) ARE many players from the NRS community?

The first paragraph I agree with wholeheartedly. But honestly, they are the model community at this point in time for the FGC.

The Mk community would be hype if we didn't see the exact same things in the top 8. We would love to see some player diversity more than anything alongside character diversity. There should be literally no reason why we see some of the very best players in the community only use one character as if that was the "norm". I understand the idea of "playing to win" but there are more characters out there just outside the top tiers that do just as good as Alien or Piercing Mileena! Hell, if you do use those characters, use the other variations instead! There's really no excuse for top players using the same old strategies in order to win.

Granted I get the community is the one who's in charge but it's the top players responsibility to maintain that excitement. It's almost like wrestling in a way: The wrestlers job are to put on a good show and entertain us, the paying, viewing crowd (only the MKX fans aren't paying and are watching for free so that factors into them not enjoying something rather quickly).

The last one is "i know, i know".

 

[Indecisive]

The first paragraph I agree with wholeheartedly. But honestly, they are the model community at this point in time for the FGC.

The Mk community would be hype if we didn't see the exact same things in the top 8. We would love to see some player diversity more than anything alongside character diversity. There should be literally no reason why we see some of the very best players in the community only use one character as if that was the "norm". I understand the idea of "playing to win" but there are more characters out there just outside the top tiers that do just as good as Alien or Piercing Mileena! Hell, if you do use those characters, use the other variations instead! There's really no excuse for top players using the same old strategies in order to win.

Granted I get the community is the one who's in charge but it's the top players responsibility to maintain that excitement. It's almost like wrestling in a way: The wrestlers job are to put on a good show and entertain us, the paying, viewing crowd (only the MKX fans aren't paying and are watching for free so that factors into them not enjoying something rather quickly).

The last one is "i know, i know".

Lol what. Why should top players feel the need to play something different for entertainment. They want to WIN. If the strategy they use works why change the formula. Why is it a top players job to entertain us? They arent getting paid to do that. some are not even getting paid. They have to pay money out of pocket to enter and try and win

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

My only issue with what you have said is about the character diversity. It is kind of hard for a bunch of different characters to win big events when one player completely and utterly dominates the game

even if one guy is winning almost all the events, that has nothing to do with the other 7 people who are getting top 8 and the character diversity that is shown. In mkx top 8 there were 3 matches of alien vs mileena (sonic v foxy/ foxy v dragon/ dragon v semij) and 2 matches of mileena vs sonya (foxy v scar and scar v semijj). From a viewer's perspective, this just won't be as interesting to watch. Having consistent results is no issue for people, those players placing are doing their job and they deserve the placings they receive. But when u have sfv top 8 with 2 nashes and ryus yet all the character machups were different (ryu v ryu, ryu v nash, chun v nash, necalli v ken, necalli v ryu, ryu v Karin, and nash v ken) and then ppl see mkx with 3 matchups between the same character, then it can be seen why some weren't so hype about mkx top 8. But of course, this is my take on it and I dnt expect everyone to agree with me, but I am bringing up facts about the top 8 just to demonstrate the issue people had with Mkx's top 8.
Edit: oops u said "characters winning events", I read that wrong lmao but the point I made in this reply is an issue to be noted. Also as I said in one of my earlier post, MKX is the first game sunday at evo and the past 2 games on sunday (blazblue and guilty gear) were quite amazing tbh.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I do not think people realize why our games are losing so many entrants every time we get to our 2nd year of evo for a game. I want NRS games to have a huge influx of entrants and stay pretty consistent at evos and etc. We should not be dealing with boos or anything like that a big major events like CEO and EVO, that is just a bad look that no one wants.
Edit: Just to make myself clear, I am stating why some weren't content with CEO top 8, nothing more. I (and many others) think that the gameplay (the reads, reactions, and etc.) were solid for the top 8 of CEO, people just like character diversity/ different matchups when watching top 8s. Even if we see alien/ mileena or etc. in most top 8 matchups at an event, people are more ok with that if it is those characters vs different characters instead of the same matchup multiple times.

 

[hkriderz]

There are two sides to the argument. For one, the people who type in bored emotes and complain when top tiers are being played have a point. Yes we do see a lot of the same players but that is a sign of good play and consistency, but then we see the same players playing the characters who are dubbed as top tier and dominate the game in its current state. Still that's not a sign of just picking OP characters. Hell Dragon bodied Slayer in an alien mirror match no contest. That's enough to show you its not just the character.

But then again, you can't not notice the fact that how some of these players like foxy and semij lost, or how sonic and foxy again did their "amazing hype comebacks that are a testament to skill". Down 90% life and lost due to not blocking overhead or low, and eating 40% into acid restand or an ex roll mixup for it. Or "accidentally" blocking high on sonya's three turn safe 50 50s and her snowballing you in the corner. Damage into reload into mixups into damage... aand death. Yeah thats so "hype". I saw a lot of amazing play in top 8, but I also saw some of the best players in the world lose to coin tosses. It's obvious, its cringy, and it looks bad on our community. The fact that EVO is 2 out of 3 is very concerning since that so many players dig out of 2-0s into 3-2s. People give crap to alien and sonya players because they snowball you into death and at some point its just not fun.

If you don't believe me, watch sonic vs foxy grand finals ESL. footsies vs 50 50s. Who won that game?

 

[xxE.Txx]

The first paragraph I agree with wholeheartedly. But honestly, they are the model community at this point in time for the FGC.

The Mk community would be hype if we didn't see the exact same things in the top 8. We would love to see some player diversity more than anything alongside character diversity. There should be literally no reason why we see some of the very best players in the community only use one character as if that was the "norm". I understand the idea of "playing to win" but there are more characters out there just outside the top tiers that do just as good as Alien or Piercing Mileena! Hell, if you do use those characters, use the other variations instead! There's really no excuse for top players using the same old strategies in order to win.

Granted I get the community is the one who's in charge but it's the top players responsibility to maintain that excitement. It's almost like wrestling in a way: The wrestlers job are to put on a good show and entertain us, the paying, viewing crowd (only the MKX fans aren't paying and are watching for free so that factors into them not enjoying something rather quickly).

The last one is "i know, i know".

First I have to say it is not top players or any players job to maintain excitement or to entertain anyone. People go to these tournaments to play because they like to. If you don't like what you're seeing then that unfortunately that is on you.

Secondly you say that you understand the play to win mentality yet you want them to do something that goes directly into the opposite direction. If you know you have a chance to win $50,000 are you going to hobble yourself with choosing a character that is not the best just to satisfy others that have no stake in you winning? Not trying to knock you or anything as I am someone who wants to see a games meta fleshed out as much as it can be, but if you are playing to win you go with what works. Just becuase Balrog and Ibuki are allowed at EVO doesn't mean top players will use them as 2 weeks isn't enough time to learn the ins and outs. Basically what im saying is players should save the character experimentation for tournaments that do not have much on the line or locals.

Thirdly. Hype is subjective. Melee and marvel are games where you pretty much know what players are going to be in top 8 and the characters they will use yet that doesn't make a lick of difference in terms of hype those communities have for their game.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Tom Brady stated in a video cast he had a few months back and people dogged him out. NOW people finally see his point on why this game only 1 year old, has already lost half of it's fan base and lost all hype for a new game. When will people take their blinders off and realize, this game is screwed and will NOT recover anytime soon.

Though I understand people's concerns with the game, acting like the game is supposed to pull the same numbers at launch and a year later makes no sense. I don't know any fighting game that does that. Tekken, Guilty Gear, Killer Instinct you name it, all has much higher numbers when the game is first released and everyone from the other games is playing it.

Then time goes on and the numbers drop off, and the game hits its 'resting' audience for a while until it either fades slowly or a new edition of the game comes out.

I can sympathize with people who don't like the game for whatever reason, but trying to force this narrative that the game has lost everyone when we're still pulling good numbers both at majors and online isn't genuine at all.

It was really annoying when people tried to prematurely kill MK9 ("Dead after EVO!"), really annoying when they tried to do the same thing to Injustice, and it's still annoying when they do it now.

 

[villainous monk]

I think the top was great. Why does it really matter what characters was used more. They are the best in there own right and even if they picked others those same characters would look just as good because those characters have really great players playing them. So what's the big deal?

People pay to win. You as the spectators are either amused or disappointed by what you choose to see. No more different then Bron Bron doing his thing so he can win and get paid and you choosing to tune in and watch.

What I'm saying is this community doesn't need to overreact at a top 8 having top tier characters. This is just silly and illogical to argue that. You want to win. You learn the best and you play that character the best you can and take it from there. It shouldn't matter if it 10 aliens. The hype is the matches and the intricate waltz that is the match itself not the character the player chose. This ain't the WWE, and these people ain't John Cena.

CEO was hype and the top 8 was too. Forget the characters for a sec and ask yourself after you've watched it.

What did you learn?
Could you do better?

That's what I got out of that top 8.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

People keep saying Alien is going to ruin EVO, just remember NOT 1 SHINNOK made Top 8 at EVO.

Weird, it's almost like everyone was wrong and overrated him. Sadly, little has changed.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

a character not making top 8 at evo doesn't mean they are "fine" lmao. How good characters are should be based on their tools, not just "tournament placings". By that logic, sub zero was better than cyrax in mk9 and we all know that wasn't the case. People need to stop acting like tourney results are for sure what determines how good a character is, it is the tools that matter the most and what people are capable of doing with those tools.

 

[shura30]

They don't pay groups of random people in sums of money to pretend that they're hype when their game is on stream.

well, NRS is paying even less people to enter tournaments for a game that is an unbalanced shitfest with frames that would make '80s fighting games cringe

 

[SneakyTortoise]

The biggest problem with the NRS community (TYM community) is the ego. For some reason the game just attracts people with the worst egos. "I get beaten by these characters, clearly the characters are broken and anyone could win with them". "other games have more entrants than us at evo, clearly our game is dead".

Do people seriously not realise how ridiculous it is to be complaining that ONLY 700+ people are willing to travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars just to play the game?

The smash and KI communities do not care what numbers other games get. They play their games, they have fun and that's all they care about.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

The only reason Melee is so popular and has so much hype behind it is because of their own community. Nothing more. Nothing less. That's literally it. They don't pay groups of random people in sums of money to pretend that they're hype when their game is on stream. Their community is fueled by passion by the players who love the game.

It's the MK's communities fault for not being more hype than they currently are at events. It's also the MK's community fault for shunning top tier users ever since MK9 2011 and making the players feel bad as if it's a criminal offense to play to win.

And I'm not saying the NRS community isn't hype, or the tournaments aren't amazing, because they really are. But it's not fair to judge other communities or place any blame with the game when it's the own community that is in charge with how much hype or how highly their games love is expressed.


I mean, does anyone find it ironic that the biggest haters for MK9 and Injustice (and soon to be MKX when Injustice 2 is out) ARE many players from the NRS community?

In my opinion, melee's eternal hype comes from the genius of the DI system and freedom of movement. Even over a decade later, it's not stale because the system mechanics limit autopilot play and generate so many different situations, conversions, and combo opportunities.

Even the swaggiest combos and mixups get very stale when you've seen them a million times. Because the DI system gives the defender options *while* they are being hit (mid combo and as they're getting hit off the stage), the guaranteed autopilot stuff is much less and you constantly have to think and react. In most fighting games, you have to think/react in neutral, but once you land a hit its autopilot mode, executing combos and setups.

For these reasons I'm personally really hype for Injustice 2. If the air tech and mb dash are implemented well it could also result in a lot less autopilot play and unique situations.

I think this issue is also the main flaw of MKX. The neutral is undoubtedly super important, but inhibited by weak defensive movement and as a percent of match time, it's rather small. The neutral usually ends rather quickly and a huge chunk of the match is spent in autopilot mode, which looks really cool the first few times but then gets stale.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

The biggest problem with the NRS community (TYM community) is the ego. For some reason the game just attracts people with the worst egos. "I get beaten by these characters, clearly the characters are broken and anyone could win with them". "other games have more entrants than us at evo, clearly our game is dead".

Do people seriously not realise how ridiculous it is to be complaining that ONLY 700+ people are willing to travel thousands of miles and spend thousands of dollars just to play the game?

The smash and KI communities do not care what numbers other games get. They play their games, they have fun and that's all they care about.

I would think that if people actually enjoy a game and want to compete in it, then evo would be a top priority event as it is the biggest one of them all. A drop of 1.1k to like 400 is going to be talked about no matter what. All communities of fighting games have people that complain (check out eventhubs comments sections and it is no different from TYM tbh lmao). I do agree with you that a game having low entrants at evo doesn't mean it is "dead", a game is only "dead" when people don't want to compete in it at events and no one plays it online really anymore. Fighting games have no set life for sure.

 

[Asodimazze]

I would think that if people actually enjoy a game and want to compete in it, then evo would be a top priority event as it is the biggest one of them all. A drop of 1.1k to like 400 is going to be talked about no matter what. All communities of fighting games have people that complain (check out eventhubs comments sections and it is no different from TYM tbh lmao). I do agree with you that a game having low entrants at evo doesn't mean it is "dead", a game is only "dead" when people don't want to compete in it at events and no one plays it online really anymore. Fighting games have no set life for sure.

MK is above 500.

More than 500 and counting one week ago looks like a fine number to me.
Considering the MUCH improved online (people don't need to play offline to feel what the real game is like anymore) and the fact that the game is older, I would say that the number of entrants is good.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

I would think that if people actually enjoy a game and want to compete in it, then evo would be a top priority event as it is the biggest one of them all. A drop of 1.1k to like 400 is going to be talked about no matter what. All communities of fighting games have people that complain (check out eventhubs comments sections and it is no different from TYM tbh lmao). I do agree with you that a game having low entrants at evo doesn't mean it is "dead", a game is only "dead" when people don't want to compete in it at events and no one plays it online really anymore. Fighting games have no set life for sure.

But it's not that low. Evo will likely have around 700 for mkx this year.

 

[ArmedCalf]

There's something about watching SFV and Melee that I don't get from MKX. The unpredictability of it all, how you never quite know what's gonna happen next...I don't get that from MKX. Dragon is gonna do a string into rekkas and then do those rekkas into more rekkas. Foxy will zone and use b12 as a solid mind game to initiate some other stuff. Scar is gonna make the guy guess to death. Lately I've been enjoying Sonic just because he makes the most interesting decisions sometimes so it's cool to watch.

I'm also dying for a little variety, but I don't expect an Unbreakable Sub player to make it past top 16 because what is he/she gonna do against all these characters with so many tools? What chance does a Metallic Tremor player have right now to make top 8? Or a Leatherface even?

 

[KingHippo]

Fuudo for thought: the best Hat Trick Lao and Smoke player, the only one who can take games off a player the caliber of Sonic, is Scar. These are his alts. I would submit that that is more than enough evidence to consider that perhaps, while they aren't super top, are more than competent at a high level and could possibly do work.

The skill gap exists in more than just tourney results

 

[Alright RyRy]

a character not making top 8 at evo doesn't mean they are "fine" lmao. How good characters are should be based on their tools, not just "tournament placings". By that logic, sub zero was better than cyrax in mk9 and we all know that wasn't the case. People need to stop acting like tourney results are for sure what determines how good a character is, it is the tools that matter the most and what people are capable of doing with those tools.

I understand that, but considering how many BS Shinnoks were at EVO, and only 1 made it as far as he did with a "braindead easy character" speaks for itself.

Now look at Alien, and Mileena EVERY tournament you see there is at least 1 or 2 of each there. Now, I am not saying BS wasn't good or stupid broken. I am simply pointing out that just because a character is "broke" doesn't mean they will make it to top 8 at EVO.

So if EVO is flooded with Demo, Piercing, and Alien then so be it, our game will look like trash to a general audience and hopefully something happens in the future with a patch or something of that nature.

But 1 thing we CANNOT do is blame the top players for using these characters, there is money on the line and they are going to do whatever it takes to bring home that money.

 

[ArmedCalf]

Fuudo for thought: the best Hat Trick Lao and Smoke player, the only one who can take games off a player the caliber of Sonic, is Scar. These are his alts. I would submit that that is more than enough evidence to consider that perhaps, while they aren't super top, are more than competent at a high level and could possibly do work.

The skill gap exists in more than just tourney results

I agree there is a huge skill gap, but the way the game is right now and the characters that people are playing, I don't know that Scar could take Hat Trick to top 8 exclusively using Hat Trick. I could be wrong - obviously he's done it in ESL, but in a stacked double-elimination major I don't know if he could do it. Smoke on the other hand is low key ridiculous - I wouldn't bet against Smoke doing well.

I just dream of a situation where one of the best Ancestral or Warrior players could enter one of these tournaments and actually have a chance against the best Acidic player or hell even A-List player

 

[Jer]

A main issue with all the "Same people same character" being at the top is that our community is small and doesn't want to work. Sonya is a top tier, but really how many of us are playing her vs how many of us are complaining about her? People need to buckle down and lab unused characters or top tier matchups instead of complain about everything they can. The majority of people complaining about Top 8's being "boring" aren't even at events competing, they're sitting at home watching, not practicing and whining. This has been an issue for so long with this community and it dates back to MK9.

Back in MK9, Reo was CRUCIFIED for using Kabal, everyone complained instead of the few top players who played and played and understood how to beat the character. If more of our community would open up to this thought than maybe something would happen, otherwise nothing will change and this cycle will repeat when IGAU2 comes out

 

[Alright RyRy]

A main issue with all the "Same people same character" being at the top is that our community is small and doesn't want to work. Sonya is a top tier, but really how many of us are playing her vs how many of us are complaining about her? People need to buckle down and lab unused characters or top tier matchups instead of complain about everything they can. The majority of people complaining about Top 8's being "boring" aren't even at events competing, they're sitting at home watching, not practicing and whining. This has been an issue for so long with this community and it dates back to MK9.

Back in MK9, Reo was CRUCIFIED for using Kabal, everyone complained instead of the few top players who played and played and understood how to beat the character. If more of our community would open up to this thought than maybe something would happen, otherwise nothing will change and this cycle will repeat when IGAU2 comes out

I completely agree with this. It seems 10x worse in this game than it did in MK9.

 

[Cossner]

I'm noticing a trend in all the people complaining about the top 8s being the same:

> I have never seen their face irl.
> I have never heard of any of them getting out of pools.
> I have never heard of them being great/the best with their characters.
> I have never seen them involved in podcasts or producing videos for the community.
> I've never seen them play on streams or against top players regularly.

However I've seen them complain that the game is a terribly unbalanced mess and that its dead competitively.

You guys need to check your credentials before complaining like this, LBSH (probably don't even know what lbsh means). I feel I'm repeating myself, but if you feel the game is dead its 100% your fault. Typing in forums doesn't increase tournament numbers nor it makes you a better player. Online people need to understand that most of us know each other in person. Our community is never gonna die because it's composed of a group of friends. As long as we remain friends we'll continue to play and travel.

Also has anyone noticed how the most consistent players are usually people who are well-known placers for many years? You know, the same group of people who played MK9 and Injustice competitively and did well despite them being different games with different characters? Of course with the exceptions of new people that got added to that group and will continue to do well in the future.

Yeeeaaahhhhh.

I dont get why Bill keeps posting, he's been miserable for 5 years and he has never been good yet he still whines every single time. I wonder if he enjoys suffering.

 

[Dabluprint4]

I'm noticing a trend in all the people complaining about the top 8s being the same:

> I have never seen their face irl.
> I have never heard of any of them getting out of pools.
> I have never heard of them being great/the best with their characters.
> I have never seen them involved in podcasts or producing videos for the community.
> I've never seen them play on streams or against top players regularly.

However I've seen them complain that the game is a terribly unbalanced mess and that its dead competitively.

You guys need to check your credentials before complaining like this, LBSH (probably don't even know what lbsh means). I feel I'm repeating myself, but if you feel the game is dead its 100% your fault. Typing in forums doesn't increase tournament numbers nor it makes you a better player. Online people need to understand that most of us know each other in person. Our community is never gonna die because it's composed of a group of friends. As long as we remain friends we'll continue to play and travel.

Also has anyone noticed how the most consistent players are usually people who are well-known placers for many years? You know, the same group of people who played MK9 and Injustice competitively and did well despite them being different games with different characters? Of course with the exceptions of new people that got added to that group and will continue to do well in the future.

Yeeeaaahhhhh.

I dont get why Bill keeps posting, he's been miserable for 5 years and he has never been good yet he still whines every single time. I wonder if he enjoys suffering.

you deserve a medal.. so much truth in this post.