Discussion Variation Tier List 12/06/16

[KIllaByte]

You're right about the C-tier, there was no need and I actually included that during the making of the character tier .. No idea why.
I agree on Bojutsu being A tier, oversight on my part.
I should honestly move Displacer to "Remaining" characters.

Thanks!



Gunslinger has one of the best neutral, space-control, zoning, mixups and mixup-safety while also access to multiple-hitting strings which are gapless and a command throw.. add to that his unusually high chip damage and great meter synergy. He's a top character in urgent need of nerfs, imo.

CSZ possesses better space control (more accessible mids, an iceball which is faster than SZ's), requires less risk to attempt his playstyle. I believe CSZ is still strong but then again, not as strong as Smoke. Sektor and Cyrax I find very underwhelming since the last patch, but I'm open to better insight.



You would still agree Kenjutsu is his top variation, right?
I believe JC is strong in neutral, I don't think I could place Fisticuffs in B-tier, interested in your thoughts, though.



My bad! Forgot adding him



I did. My mistake.

I respect you taking a risk making a big thread like this, and I respect how open you are to criticism.

 

[dwz_mk9]

As much as I love playing Erron Black and upplaying him, he is not S+ imo. S+ or S is for characters that are significantly stronger than every character in the tiers below. That's not him. I would put all of his variations in the A to A+ range.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Too many in the variation one for me to point out but here is what i think on the characters. In no order:
No S+ characters.
S: Cage, Mileena, Ermac, Sonya, Takeda, Kano, Alien, D'Vorah
A+: Tremor, Quan Chi, Kung Jin, Ferra/Torr, Jax, Liu Kang
A: Sub-Zero, Scorpion, Raiden, Cassie, Reptile, Kotal Kahn, Predator, Shinnok, Jacqui
A-: Kitana, Erron Black, Triborg, Jason, Goro(A tier??), Tanya, Kung Lao
B+: Kenshi, Bo Rai' Cho

 

[G4S Pharaoh]

Im curious as to why nimble is higher than deceptive. No way, in my opinion, does nimble outclass deceptive, when all nimble gets is more damage, while deceptive gets invisibility pressure, the access to safe 50/50s, a combo extender, and an extremely scary corner game.

 

[Rozalin1780]

Just throwing my two cents in...

Royal Storm and Assassin are in a very good place as far as balance is concerned. Both are similar and very honest. It's hard to say which is better. There are few instances where you can clearly say "this" variation is better for "this" match-up.

Wherever they belong, the belong in the same tier. A or A+ imo

 

[ismael4790]

Im curious as to why nimble is higher than deceptive. No way, in my opinion, does nimble outclass deceptive, when all nimble gets is more damage, while deceptive gets invisibility pressure, the access to safe 50/50s, a combo extender, and an extremely scary corner game.

Nimble with the speed buff active laughs at armors.

 

[G4S Pharaoh]

Nimble with the speed buff active laughs at armors.

Yeah, but is that really enough to make it better than what deceptive offers. In my opinion, I do not believe so

 

[gam224]

Derptiles tier list is a lot better

 

[Geoffmeister]

As much as I love playing Erron Black and upplaying him, he is not S+ imo. S+ or S is for characters that are significantly stronger than every character in the tiers below. That's not him. I would put all of his variations in the A to A+ range.

Gunslinger has
- one of the best neutral (21122 reaches far, fast, locks your opponent down for good chip and meter gain)
- space-control (has the threat of a Slide or an overhead, if you're not in range of 2)
- zoning (fast whiff recovery, hard to dodge)
- mixups (can't fuzzy them, can stay safe meterless)
- mixup-safety (while retaining a plus-situation off a launcher, thus having damage potential at the same time).
- his most utilized string is gapless and has the threat of a command throw along with it
- add to that his unusually high chip damage (off the low shots)
- and great meter synergy (EX command throw, EX Slide)
- has a multi-hitting attack from his Stand Off which breaks armor instantly and launches for full combo

Basically, he will win something off every exchange, has a threat everywhere on screen and has mixup/mindgames in situations most dont. I don't know what weakness he could have other than really bad MU's which I honestly can't speak for.
He also has the results to back this up, as we all surely have seen.

If I'm wrong, this comment should be easy to address.

 

[Gofer_MK_]

Gunslinger has one of the best neutral, space-control, zoning, mixups and mixup-safety while also access to multiple-hitting strings which are gapless and a command throw.. add to that his unusually high chip damage and great meter synergy. He's a top character in urgent need of nerfs, imo.
As far as I'm concerned, he's a top character in need of heavy nerfs.

Huh? This is for real? And what nerfs would you suggest?

 

[Geoffmeister]

Im curious as to why nimble is higher than deceptive. No way, in my opinion, does nimble outclass deceptive, when all nimble gets is more damage, while deceptive gets invisibility pressure, the access to safe 50/50s, a combo extender, and an extremely scary corner game.

It's not the damage nor the pressure-extender, it's that he can use his Basilisk in many more situations as of the recent patch. Successfully making any opponent free in the process, can't block the mixups, can't armor due to the speed difference but worst of all, he can launch you using just standing pressure and combo off of it, potentially putting you in the same situation again and if not that, you're in the corner now anyway.

Derptiles tier list is a lot better

Nothing against Derptile, but wouldn't you agree that MKX and character tier lists just don't go together?
Games been out a year and we're still doing this as if they could hold any credibility to anyone except to those currently playing the game, makes for hard debating and doesn't address specific stuff that may need attention.
For example, I believe Ermac isn't tournament viable, does that bar him from getting nerfs in benefit of the game? Not for me. This way provides a better summarization for anyone.

Huh? This is for real? And what nerfs would you suggest?

You tell me why he gets access to blowing up your armor or taking 8~% chip after blocking safe 50/50's correctly, how many variations you know can do that? On top of having a great offense and defense as listed, it's too much.

A change that goes without saying is the chip damage off the low-shots.
Additionally, I would make it more risky or make him have less reward regarding his Mixups (and I would do the same for all other variations in the game that warrant it).

Thats... actually it (that I can think of). He can stay a really good character, just make his offense more honest.

 

[BlackJackSnack]

Narrrrrrr

 

[chrisisnice]

This is a huge effort and well done to you for being so ambitious. The thing about it is that variation tier lists are impractical as you cant know the minutia of 1000 variations - there are just too many variables. This is why people usually do overall character ones.

I think Bo and Tanya are the worst in the game. They are close to broken and not working the way they were meant to.

There is so much wrong with Bo and he feels incomplete. My guess is that NRS spent the least time on him or ran out of time. They really need to give in a non-EX projectile in at least one of his variations - preferably Dragon Breath and this would be a viable variation (and really fun). As it stands, he is an uphill battle in a lot of match ups. Such a shame.

I'm glad people are not downplaying Jacqui anymore - I think she is pretty good.

 

[G4S Pharaoh]

Also, you mean to tell me that, going off of this tier list, master of souls, and sun god are not tournament viable?? Look at BigD, Toxin, and iLuusions. those chars are most definetely very good and viable. I think your translation of what each of the tiers means needs to be tweaked a bit. Alot of the characters in A+ tier arent only "somewhat tournament viable" like you say they are, such as war god kotal and HQT predator. those chars are very viable.

 

[HeroesNZ]

> Opens S+ Spoiler tag
> Sees Gunslinger
> Closes S+ Spoiler tag

Apart from that, A tier needs splitting into two. Lasher and Marksman should not be compared to Inferno. Mournful is also not worse than Inferno.

 

[omooba]

Im curious as to why nimble is higher than deceptive. No way, in my opinion, does nimble outclass deceptive, when all nimble gets is more damage, while deceptive gets invisibility pressure, the access to safe 50/50s, a combo extender, and an extremely scary corner game.

nible gets meterless midcreen armor break set ups into pressure. for a bar in the corner he get's 50/50 amor breaking set ups

 

[G4S Pharaoh]

nible gets meterless midcreen armor break set ups into pressure. for a bar in the corner he get's 50/50 amor breaking set ups

Deceptive has:
- Safe and plus 50/50s.
- Plus cancels that lead you into invisible pressure.
- Hitconfirmable plus low.
- Invisibility.
- Flash parry that lets you safely get out of pressure and start pressuring.
- A hit of invulnerabilty, huge comeback factor for clutch situations.

nimble has:
- Slightly more damage.
- Unguarranteed armor breaking setups for slow wake ups.

Theres no contest lol

 

[Sage Leviathan]

Gunslinger S+ tier?

 

[604 Ronin]

On the discussion of having only a single character in SS tier. Don't forget that in MvC2, there were 4 Gods of the game. They would be considered SS tier, however, since MKX's final meta will probably never settle for 10+ years, I don't think we would find the "God Tiers". Imo.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Also, you mean to tell me that, going off of this tier list, master of souls, and sun god are not tournament viable?? Look at BigD, Toxin, and iLuusions. those chars are most definetely very good and viable. I think your translation of what each of the tiers means needs to be tweaked a bit. Alot of the characters in A+ tier arent only "somewhat tournament viable" like you say they are, such as war god kotal and HQT predator. those chars are very viable.

Number of factors go into that thought process.. First off all, both MoS and Sun God have clear weaknesses and may even warrant nerfs if the game were to globally tone down offense. War God and HQT same thing but I consider them better than MoS and Sun God.. Secondly, I really try to consider Top 8 placings and the MU's that lead to them.. It's important to keep the best possible plays and players in mind when comparing each variation and likeliness of their weakness being exposed.
Thirdly.. they were very viable pre-kp2, their viability decreased since imo.

> Opens S+ Spoiler tag
> Sees Gunslinger
> Closes S+ Spoiler tag

Apart from that, A tier needs splitting into two. Lasher and Marksman should not be compared to Inferno. Also Mournful is not worse than Inferno.

I wrote up why I think he has better offense/defense than most of the roster.
You're right, Inferno was miss-placed and Mournful does indeed not belong in B-tier.

 

[aieches]

good list - personally id put all of takedas varations in the same tier- whether that be S-A is give or take - also where-ever they ended up - id put shaolin in that same tier.

but one thing i dont agree with is the downtoning . unless we are talking about damage wise - some are just fine even with the dirt they have

 

[aieches]

and did the gunslinger placement stem from what Sonic stated in his video?

 

[OutworldKeith]

Well, you got Scorpion's variations correct. I don't think Inferno has a single winning MU.

 

[OutworldKeith]

> Opens S+ Spoiler tag
> Sees Gunslinger
> Closes S+ Spoiler tag

Apart from that, A tier needs splitting into two. Lasher and Marksman should not be compared to Inferno.

Yeah it's no way! Unbreakable is probably the worst variation aside from Inferno lol.

 

[Tweedy]

Marksmen and Gunslinger should be pretty close.

Do people know what Marksmen can do lol?

Those safe meterless 50/50s. :/

I agree that Gunslinger is probably a bit better, but man. Man bruh.