Somea2V
Thread Referee
Oh, that's certainly possible. With Cassie getting hit hard, it would only take some reasonable balancing to other top tiers to give Johnny a good argument for top tier, as someone who can fight anyone.
Oh, that's certainly possible. With Cassie getting hit hard, it would only take some reasonable balancing to other top tiers to give Johnny a good argument for top tier, as someone who can fight anyone.
The fact that a fair number of folks thought that Cage was mid-tier at best when this game first came out makes this possibility very amusing to me.
Yeah the Cage community was/is down playing Central.
Eh, it was never a lack of fifties that made me think he was mid to upper mid tier. It was just the narrow scope of what he did great. I didn't think you would get that far off of chipping people out with a pressure character. Because let's be honest, no one who actually knows the match is going to get hit for actual damage all that much.
And that is one thing I've always considered when thinking about Cage's overall placement, because I've played some very good players who were never opened up from his normals alone. The free chip, to me, is just a nice way to build up bar for armored counter poking/zoning. Only through whiff punishing and from establishing fear of his grab was I able to start dealing damage. From my experience, it's insane how a few well-placed staggers into grabs will make people press buttons at the worst times. Of course, I doubt this playstyle is unique to Johnny alone, but it definitely helps him play his game.
A 15 frame mid is not enough for a neutral character with no mix ups.
Kenshi's mid is 13 frames but can't be hit confirmed and his mid that can be hit confirmed is 16 frames.
My statement still stands. Don't see the point of your post.
And you, Fistibros, will always have our love, support and admiration.A-List is very good. Even with a slight nerf he will continue being good. Don't worry A-Listers. You will still have good pressure after march 1. You are thousands of miles away of reaching the trashy levels of Fisticuffs
Let's be honest, with the way he currently plays, if Johnny Cage had 50/50s that led into combos, he'd be utterly disgusting, as every single touch would end with you in a guessing game between high/low/grab, and in A-List especially, he'd be able to make himself safe every time you block correctly. Granted, there still are characters who can whiff punish with the best of 'em and still have 50/50s (Jax, for example), but I wouldn't say Cage needs them in order to compete. His f3 is a very good footsie tool and I would definitely say that its whiff punishing abilities allow him to play his game without the need for 50/50s, at least in A-List. On block, it grants him free pressure, and on hit, it easily leads into upwards of a 28% combo into restand, 40% if you can sneak in a grab at the end of it, all for no meter.
The guess between d4 and f2 is a 50/50 in the same vein as, say, the guess between Mileena's f234 and f23xEx-Roll. One option does piss damage, the other leads to a full combo, so it's obvious which one you'll want to block. And trust me, there are players out there who will NEVER block a d4 no matter how many times they eat it. And on the flipside, you have players who constantly block low after a d4 for some odd reason. d4 only counts as Johnny's only low combo starter because it jails into f3 on hit, but all your opponent needs to do is block and not try to press buttons like an idiot and they'll be fine.
Unfortunately, I can't really answer this one that well as I've never played Injustice, but anyone calling 11(3)/11 (f2) a good mixup needs to play better opponents. It may have worked in the beginning when we didn't know any better, but Cage mains won't be getting away with that anymore. One armored interruption is all it'll take for them to never try that crap again. 1 (f2) is better, but a good player will quickly catch on to that one as well.
To the third point...why?
I assume you mean why the 113/f2 mixup isn't that good? Because it's easily fuzzy-guarded when fighting someone who keeps an eye out for it. People only get away with it nowadays if the opponent doesn't know the matchup. Again, 1 (f2) is more effective as it messes with their timing if they're expecting 113, as does staggering 11s into either 113 or f2, but not only are you still not guaranteed to open up a good opponent, but staggering allows them to armor through or backdash every time. Does everyone have the reactions to block the 'mixups' or to armor through the gaps? No, but I'm assuming we're speaking in terms of high-level play, where things like that are generally punished on a consistent basis if used too frequently.
That was going to be my next point. Staggering makes his overhead low mixups better.
You mean plus after his 11s or plus after his SKRCs? Because those are two different beasts. I'll have to look into this to rejog my memory, but even though the frame data says that 1 and 11 are +2, I think they're just 0. But even if he is + after the staggers, there will still be a 7-frame gap for the opponent to use, and while the armor breaking, especially with 12 is a good point, certain characters do have armored specials that are just too fast for that.
And I'm not trying to say that he can't open people up at all, just that it's theoretically not guaranteed no matter what he does. He can still get in, I'm not gonna deny that, and he has several ways to do so, but I still stand by my point that the basic 113/f2 mix-up with no staggering isn't going to get you very far against someone who knows the MU.
Clearly we are no-talent hacks that need to level the duck up before we ever open our mouths about Cage again.
Batman got more mileage off his ambiguous J2 and F3 could cross up, so saying it was all stagger pressure is pretty ignorant. And I don't believe the point was ever that Cage couldn't open people up, just that it was difficult at high levels or against people who actually learn matchups.
