Backdashes

[TwiztidOne]

Kung Lao's backdash is fine.

There was one sequence in a tournament match between Foreverking and Michaelangelo, where they both kept backdashing and b2ing with Quan. It was obnoxious even with them only being able to do it a few times.

Backdashing is really strong, even with it taking half of your stamina. They've nerfed basically all guaranteed pressure, so you can backdash out of pretty much everything.

I didn't play the two games that came before. Maybe you could infinitely backdash on those games, so people think that it's okay? I've talked to people who were good at MK9, who actually complain about the lack of iframes on wake up. I'm assuming the people asking for no stamina tax on backdashes, just don't want change, because it's not what they're used to, they don't want to give up what they were good at, or they haven't been exposed to optimal backdashing on MKX?

Sorry if i'm offending anyone. I just don't understand.

wait what? who was complaining about the lack of invincibility on wake up in mk9? so many wake ups had invincibility in that game, unless they're referring to wakeup backdash? in which case nevermind

 

[ForeverKing]

The big problem with backdashes is that some characters have backdashes that are perfectly good and viable, whilst others have backdashes that are borderline useless. The gap between 'top tier' backdashes and 'low tier' ones is far too vast.

But to at least attempt to answer your question, I definitely feel that at least half the cast could do with improvements to their backdash. And tbh, I don't think they should cost stamina either - there's no good reason for backdashes to require stamina when forward dashes don't require any.

There's no way they can make back dashes cost 0 stamina. Can you imagine Quan Chi pumping out hella back dashes across the screen? He'd be like Zod, it would be so ridiculous trying to catch him

 

[TwiztidOne]

There's no way they can make back dashes cost 0 stamina. Can you imagine Quan Chi pumping out hella back dashes across the screen? He'd be like Zod, it would be so ridiculous trying to catch him

what about making back dashing itself not cost stamina, but making invincible back dashes cost stamina like it does now?

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

There are differences in backdash distance and apparently Active frames, but they all Startup in 1 frame and are invincible within 1 frame. I tested using the example given above between Sub-Zero (who has a good one) and Scorpion (who has a bad one).

Above is Scorpion executing a successful backdash in 1 frame after a blocked b1, which is -8 on block. Sub's reversal slide is 9 frames. You can see he's invincible when contact is first made.

Here is an identical scenario with Sub-Zero. He successfully backdashes in 1 frame after a blocked b3, 3, which is -8 on block, same as the move Scorpion did. He was also invincible just the same as Scorpion.

Above we see Scorpion successfully backdashing a very tight gap in F/T's b121 xx db2 string. Note that he is invincible for the entire string.

Above, Sub-Zero backdashes in the same exact gap, except he is not invincible for the whole string. Looks to me like Scorpion's is every bit as fast, equally as far and keeps invincibility for longer. I'm not seeing how his backdash is worse; it seems to me more like an optical illusion because Sub-Zero's just looks faster. In reality it's not. I think the videos here prove that. What you're seeing is just the animation speed, just the empty pixels so to speak, not the actual hitbox, which is invisible, unless there is still something I'm missing (totally possible). I'm also not aware of the frametraps or jump-ins mentioned above which supposedly favor Sub over Scorpion.

More examples of both backdashing more gaps.

 

[MK_Al]

If backdashes would cost less than one stamina you'd have to chase down kano and sub forever, so I personally don't agree on reducing the cost. I do agree that some backdashes could need a slight buff - though keeping in mind that some chars already have enough good tools and don't need that buff (KL)

 

[Big Pampering]

imo some characters could use a beter backdash, but universal changes? No, just play the game already. Not every game has to have crazy good invincible backdashes. Start playing defense mk style or you will forever not adapt.

 

[God Confirm]

Run , yes backdash not really. There are tons and tons of advancing combo starters in this game and trying to backdash them is a massive risk. And guessing wrong on that means unbreakable damage. Backdash is better used to escape string with gaps in this game.

And guessing right means full combo punish or at the very least out of pressure. For the most part only dedicated advancings work as backdash punishes depending on the characters

 

[God Confirm]

There are differences in backdash distance and apparently Active frames, but they all Startup in 1 frame and are invincible within 1 frame. I tested using the example given above between Sub-Zero (who has a good one) and Scorpion (who has a bad one).

Above is Scorpion executing a successful backdash in 1 frame after a blocked b1, which is -8 on block. Sub's reversal slide is 9 frames. You can see he's invincible when contact is first made.

Here is an identical scenario with Sub-Zero. He successfully backdashes in 1 frame after a blocked b3, 3, which is -8 on block, same as the move Scorpion did. He was also invincible just the same as Scorpion.

Above we see Scorpion successfully backdashing a very tight gap in F/T's b121 xx db2 string. Note that he is invincible for the entire string.

Above, Sub-Zero backdashes in the same exact gap, except he is not invincible for the whole string. Looks to me like Scorpion's is every bit as fast, equally as far and keeps invincibility for longer. I'm not seeing how his backdash is worse; it seems to me more like an optical illusion because Sub-Zero's just looks faster. In reality it's not. I think the videos here prove that. What you're seeing is just the animation speed, just the empty pixels so to speak, not the actual hitbox, which is invisible, unless there is still something I'm missing (totally possible). I'm also not aware of the frametraps or jump-ins mentioned above which supposedly favor Sub over Scorpion.

More examples of both backdashing more gaps.

Wow excellent post, you are what I wish all TYM is like.

What I'm curious about is the recovery/punish window on the backdashes. Subs might run out of invul quicker, but is this because it recovers faster? What you should do is find a slow advancing reversal just fast enough to punish Scorp, and see if it punishes Subs at the exact same frames (probably best tested in the corner so distance isn't relevant). I'd help but I can't use the PS4 at the moment. If you haven't done it by the time I wake up, I'll research it myself and post results. I'd love to know the frames on their backdashes as well.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

So which back dashes are considered good and which ones are bad?

The best are like kano quan chi and tremor. The worst I can think of is kenshi his backdash is non existent.

 

[Roko1985]

They need to be improved. The gaps between viable and trash back dash is insane. Regardless stamina it could cost half a bar but one Bar is way to much at their current state.

Goro can walk back faster then back dashing.......

 

[Roko1985]

So which back dashes are considered good and which ones are bad?

Goro has the worse one for sure!

 

[GLoRToR]

Tanya Rekkas. Input a reversal backdash on the last rekka, if it comes out, she gapped the rekkas and you can whiff punish, if it doesn't, shes negative because of not delaying it. You effectively option selected her pressure without meter, grats.

Thank you.

Tanya Rekkas. Input a reversal backdash on the last rekka, if it comes out, she gapped the rekkas and you can whiff punish, if it doesn't, shes negative because of not delaying it. You effectively option selected her pressure without meter, grats.

Whiners L2P

Tanya Rekkas. Input a reversal backdash on the last rekka, if it comes out, she gapped the rekkas and you can whiff punish, if it doesn't, shes negative because of not delaying it. You effectively option selected her pressure without meter, grats.

READ AND LEARN.

Tanya Rekkas. Input a reversal backdash on the last rekka, if it comes out, she gapped the rekkas and you can whiff punish, if it doesn't, shes negative because of not delaying it. You effectively option selected her pressure without meter, grats.

 

[Error404]

And guessing right means full combo punish or at the very least out of pressure. For the most part only dedicated advancings work as backdash punishes depending on the characters

Or you can just walk back out of range , not risk anything and still get the punish.

 

[God Confirm]

Or you can just walk back out of range , not risk anything and still get the punish.

https://twitter.com/yomiforeverking/status/681225799429664768

You're right, they should have just walked back, completely risk free, backdashes are completely useless footsie tools

 

[Alright RyRy]

Just make them universal. Problem solved.

 

[Error404]

https://twitter.com/yomiforeverking/status/681225799429664768

You're right, they should have just walked back, completely risk free, backdashes are completely useless footsie tools

First of all I said MOSTLY WALKING . Secondly that one play from the character with the best backdash in the game doesn't mean shit. Do the same play with Kenshi , then you can use it as an arguement.

 

[OutworldKeith]

@Trauma_and_Pain you are a god B.

Ninjitsu did so bad against Sub-zero because he could reversal Slide his F2. Thanks for that video B.

@Eddy Wang

 

[buyacushun]

All backdashes shouldn't cost half a bar stamina. If you get baited that's giving your opponent basically unbreakable BnB damage. Some character's backdashes are just plain awful (Raiden) but some character's don't need a buffed backdash (Predator). I think NRS should give all backdashes are hard look. But I doubt NRS would do anything about them. If they do I doubt it'll be good.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

What I'm curious about is the recovery/punish window on the backdashes. Subs might run out of invul quicker, but is this because it recovers faster?

It may recover faster, but my impression right now is that it isn't active for as long. It seems to me that invincibility lasts during the active frames, not during recovery. During backdash recovery, you are vulnerable; that's what we saw happen to Sub above. If he could have blocked Ferra Toss, he would have, because the AI was set to block always. It clipped him right in the recovery frames where he was no longer invincible but not yet in control to e.g. block.

I'm about to do more testing to see about the recovery. Might even go down the whole roster. Right now it seems like the most important things are not so much how long the invincibility lasts, but rather how many recovery frames there are, because those are when you are vulnerable.

 

[God Confirm]

First of all I said MOSTLY WALKING . Secondly that one play from the character with the best backdash in the game doesn't mean shit. Do the same play with Kenshi , then you can use it as an arguement.

The whole point of this debate you and I are having, is that someone said something about needing improved backdashes so that all characters can use them for footsies, and you came in arguing against that by saying "footsies is mostly walking not dashing", and I said backdashing is integral to footsies, obviously me and the other person are talking about useable backdashes being a part of footsies, not Kenshi's one which I literally already described as trash a few posts ago in this very thread. When a character has a good backdash, its a key part of their neutral, backdashing is only not used as an option when it is too trash to be. You were too busy focusing on winning the argument here that you forgot what your original point was and have completely backtracked on it.

 

[Major Moron74]

Everytime I backdash as Mileena I feel like I move forward.

#PrayForMileena

What's sad about it is that she has one of the cooler backdash animations too

 

[IrishMantis]

Run , yes backdash not really. There are tons and tons of advancing combo starters in this game and trying to backdash them is a massive risk. And guessing wrong on that means unbreakable damage. Backdash is better used to escape string with gaps in this game.

i can punish advancing strings all day

i think a lot of people are still trying to play the MK9 footsie game as the neutral space being a few inches away, its not its about jump distance

i love when opponents do advancing strings, free combo for me if spaced correctly

P.S. i know thats not the point you making i was just speaking on a more general view, your point is true and depends on chars

 

[Baconlord]

Everytime I backdash as Mileena I feel like I move forward.

#PrayForMileena

That's because the first few frames do move you foward.

 

[IrishMantis]

I just checked the votes,are out of your mind?the game has no footsies and you still want the backdash to cost half stamina?fuck.

No footsies? lol

how are the same people making it top 8, guessing correctly?

i feel i win my matches by always being at the correct space and solid whiff punishes on reads/rections

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

I have strong feeling that while NRS will be patching KP2 they might look at other things to make this game better and better. On the other hand how could they Fuck up such an important part of the neutral game for some characters :/