Backdashes

[Eddy Wang]

As we know, Backdash is one of the crucial parts of the neutral game in MKX, since is probably the only move in the game with invincibility, i say its has been carefully used if not at all due the following reasons:

A: Backdash is not that good at current state, since either they take forever to avoid,

B: Half of the time its not worth it because it can be easily miss timed and the risks of getting punished is way worse if the opponent succeeds in hitting you while you backdash.

C: Block is more reliable than a backdash since it doesn't cost stamina, and if you block wrong you can just break it when you have the bar and meter for it.

As we know, Backdashes play an important role on situations where you want you opponent to whiff something in order to get you in perfect position to do something primarily or just to reset the neutral.

I dunno how TYM stands in the current meta of the backdash, do you agree with how they're right now? Or do you think it should be tweaked? I have 3 options in the vote and i would like to know what you guys think it suits better.

Please discuss

 

[TarkatanDentist]

The big problem with backdashes is that some characters have backdashes that are perfectly good and viable, whilst others have backdashes that are borderline useless. The gap between 'top tier' backdashes and 'low tier' ones is far too vast.

But to at least attempt to answer your question, I definitely feel that at least half the cast could do with improvements to their backdash. And tbh, I don't think they should cost stamina either - there's no good reason for backdashes to require stamina when forward dashes don't require any.

 

[iMileena]

Some back dashes are really good and worth using stamina i must say, but as a mileena main I barely back dash with her cause her's is ridiculously slow and barely spaces how i want to. Its dumb how some characters can get out of other certain characters pressure with a simple backdash, but mileena can't cause of her backdash recovery is kind of slow ugh i hope they fix her

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

They need to be improved. The gaps between viable and trash back dash is insane. Regardless stamina it could cost half a bar but one Bar is way to much at their current state.

 

[_xFriction]

so many far reaching / advancing strings... i never backdash on purpose

 

[Goat-City]

Decrease the recovery and leave it at half stamina. You should be able to backdash and do anything afterwards immediately. Even with Quan's backdash I've been full combo punished by several of these forward moving strings in the game.

 

[OutworldKeith]

I feel like the backdash mechanic is one dimentional. It can only be used for creating space. Like others mentioned, a character either has a really good BD or a bad BD.

Another problem is that most string advance across the screen. That means you'll end up using half stamina just to be put into another situation where you're on defense. So I feel that they should at least reduce the recovery on the BD.

As far as versatility goes you can't BD to open up opportunities for whiff punishing because of the long recovery times.

 

[Eddy Wang]

So which back dashes are considered good and which ones are bad?

 

[KIllaByte]

So which back dashes are considered good and which ones are bad?

Top Tier: Kano, Tremor. These are the two best.
Decent: Kung Jin
Ass tier: Jax, Kung Lao
I don't know the rest.

 

[Zatoichi]

Sub Zero's is unfortunately pretty good.

 

[DownfouralitY]

So which back dashes are considered good and which ones are bad?

Kano, Shinnok, Sub, Kotal, Quan, and Tremor all have pretty damn good backdashes imo, might be forgetting some. Not too familiar with the bad backdashes, but Erron has one of the absolute worst in the game.

 

[stamatis]

I just checked the votes,are out of your mind?the game has no footsies and you still want the backdash to cost half stamina?fuck.

 

[Tweedy]

The good backdashes would be way too strong if they cost no stamina, like way, way too strong.

 

[The Celebrity]

I think backdashes are undervalued personally. In a game so heavy on pressure, a lot of which involve gaps, I find it ridiculous how many people dont bother utilizing backdashes.

So many people say "just armor through the gap" when in most cases (character dependent though) you can backdash through the gap, save the meter and have a stronger punish.

Lets do some examples.

• Sonya B142 goes from being an annoying overhead low overhead, to a full punish. I say B142 because that is what a Covert Ops player gets if they get backdashed (trying to input DB2 military stance)
• Gunslinger EB SO3, you never need to take the chip. Just let go of block on the last shot, reversal backdash and enjoy your plus frames.
• EB 21122. you can input a reversal backdash as Kano to cover the low sand grenade, stand off, gun swing, sword, and command grab options. Other characters can cover all the options except grenade as well. If you know your timing you can even option select it by holding block again immediately after in case they finish the string.
• Cassie B124, space yourself after raw B12 and dodge the 4 if she inputs it. Same thing goes with 332, since every cassie is going to D3 check you after that string.
• Dodge Liu Kang's B12 on a read midscreen after FK MB. For some characters with good backdashes this even covers F44 and i think tremor covers all of F213 even.
• Tanya Rekkas. Input a reversal backdash on the last rekka, if it comes out, she gapped the rekkas and you can whiff punish, if it doesn't, shes negative because of not delaying it. You effectively option selected her pressure without meter, grats.
• I might be wrong about this since I haven't done it for awhile, but Stunt Double Johnny's (and maybe other johnny's too) have gaps in EX Forceball. Block the first, backdash the second, whoops goodbye their plus frames and meter, hello your plus frames.

So many awesome ways to use backdashes defensively and you RARELY see them. Mostly because a large number of characters have horrendous backdashes. I would love to see a buff to those character's backdashes to put them more in line with Takeda's (whose I find good, but not Kano good).

For a record; Kano, Quan, Shinnok, Subzero and Tremor all have insanely good backdashes and I would think anyone is completely insane if they didn't consider it when they discuss the defense of that character. I disagree with everyone saying Quan has 0 defense merely because of that reason.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

How do you increase the startup speed on a backdash? IIRC they come out instantly i.e. 1 frame. The animation is of course deceptively slower than that, but unless I'm mistaken, you are invincible as soon as the backdash is input regardless. Do you mean the animations should be faster? Guess I'm going to test this and see what's really going on just to make sure.

 

[SaSSolino]

So which back dashes are considered good and which ones are bad?

Shinnok's is not at the top, but close to it. Quan's is just as good as Shinnok's, while Reptile's is pretty bad.

I just checked the votes,are out of your mind?the game has no footsies and you still want the backdash to cost half stamina?fuck.

I play a ton of footsies actually, they must be there.

 

[Eddy Wang]

How do you increase the startup speed on a backdash? IIRC they come out instantly i.e. 1 frame. The animation is of course deceptively slower than that, but unless I'm mistaken, you are invincible as soon as the backdash is input regardless. Do you mean the animations should be faster? Guess I'm going to test this and see what's really going on just to make sure.

Some characters just don't move.
Scorpion for instance, there are jump ins or frametraps where sub-zero can simply backdash, but scorpion can't, and this isn't unique to scorpion, there are some characters who i'm pretty sure suffer from the same problem. So there is definitely something going on there.

@The Celebrity you're correct this is how backdash should've work on paper, however, some characters are stamina hungry, they can't retaliate if they backdash, others have the poor dilemma of facing strings that covers a good chunk of space that will make you think twice before backdashing. Also there is the good ammount of recovery and those who can be easily miss timed, which won't get you out when you really need it.

In many cases, when i want to whiff punish, i figured is better to jump backwards to create the desired space rather than backdash, has less recovery, same range and cost no stamina.

 

[Error404]

I just checked the votes,are out of your mind?the game has no footsies and you still want the backdash to cost half stamina?fuck.

Footsies is mostly played by walking , not dashing.

 

[God Confirm]

I don't think we need a blanket rule for all backdashes, every character is unique. Lao really doesn't need his trashy backdash buff for example just to be even more broken, and Kano certainly doesn't need his awesome one toned down either one the flip side of the coin. Kenshi could really use an improved backdash however. Ideally that's how we should be able to approach balancing, never a need to blanket change everyone with a poor backdash because it might not be a good change at all

I voted for the top option, but just to be clear, only when the character calls for it

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Everytime I backdash as Mileena I feel like I move forward.

#PrayForMileena

 

[God Confirm]

Footsies is mostly played by walking , not dashing.

Backdash and run are integral to footsies

 

[OutworldKeith]

Top Tier: Kano, Tremor. These are the two best.
Decent: Kung Jin
Ass tier: Jax, Kung Lao
I don't know the rest.

Sub-Zero has a better BD than Tremor.

 

[Tweedy]

Kung Lao's backdash is fine.

There was one sequence in a tournament match between Foreverking and Michaelangelo, where they both kept backdashing and b2ing with Quan. It was obnoxious even with them only being able to do it a few times.

Backdashing is really strong, even with it taking half of your stamina. They've nerfed basically all guaranteed pressure, so you can backdash out of pretty much everything.

I didn't play the two games that came before. Maybe you could infinitely backdash on those games, so people think that it's okay? I've talked to people who were good at MK9, who actually complain about the lack of iframes on wake up. I'm assuming the people asking for no stamina tax on backdashes, just don't want change, because it's not what they're used to, they don't want to give up what they were good at, or they haven't been exposed to optimal backdashing on MKX?

Sorry if i'm offending anyone. I just don't understand.

 

[xZoro]

I think backdashes are undervalued personally. In a game so heavy on pressure, a lot of which involve gaps, I find it ridiculous how many people dont bother utilizing backdashes.

So many people say "just armor through the gap" when in most cases (character dependent though) you can backdash through the gap, save the meter and have a stronger punish.

Lets do some examples.

• Sonya B142 goes from being an annoying overhead low overhead, to a full punish. I say B142 because that is what a Covert Ops player gets if they get backdashed (trying to input DB2 military stance)
• Gunslinger EB SO3, you never need to take the chip. Just let go of block on the last shot, reversal backdash and enjoy your plus frames.
• EB 21122. you can input a reversal backdash as Kano to cover the low sand grenade, stand off, gun swing, sword, and command grab options. Other characters can cover all the options except grenade as well. If you know your timing you can even option select it by holding block again immediately after in case they finish the string.
• Cassie B124, space yourself after raw B12 and dodge the 4 if she inputs it. Same thing goes with 332, since every cassie is going to D3 check you after that string.
• Dodge Liu Kang's B12 on a read midscreen after FK MB. For some characters with good backdashes this even covers F44 and i think tremor covers all of F213 even.
• Tanya Rekkas. Input a reversal backdash on the last rekka, if it comes out, she gapped the rekkas and you can whiff punish, if it doesn't, shes negative because of not delaying it. You effectively option selected her pressure without meter, grats.
• I might be wrong about this since I haven't done it for awhile, but Stunt Double Johnny's (and maybe other johnny's too) have gaps in EX Forceball. Block the first, backdash the second, whoops goodbye their plus frames and meter, hello your plus frames.

So many awesome ways to use backdashes defensively and you RARELY see them. Mostly because a large number of characters have horrendous backdashes. I would love to see a buff to those character's backdashes to put them more in line with Takeda's (whose I find good, but not Kano good).

For a record; Kano, Quan, Shinnok, Subzero and Tremor all have insanely good backdashes and I would think anyone is completely insane if they didn't consider it when they discuss the defense of that character. I disagree with everyone saying Quan has 0 defense merely because of that reason.

Another one to add to the list would be Kotal Khan.
Backdashing covers all of his options bar B14 and B122 EX Sword toss, and it allows for a full combo punish and enforces a pretty strong mind game that he cant do his 50/50's

 

[Error404]

Backdash and run are integral to footsies

Run , yes backdash not really. There are tons and tons of advancing combo starters in this game and trying to backdash them is a massive risk. And guessing wrong on that means unbreakable damage. Backdash is better used to escape string with gaps in this game.