End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

First of all...

As a player who can't decide on a main, and as someone who hasn't "clicked" with MKX the way I did with mk9 and Inj, I always appreciate fresh outlooks on characters and tier lists.

Well done boyz.

Second, I agree with the common arguments presented. Honestly you should just merge A and A+ tiers. Too many characters in A are debatable to be higher.

Kano is my new "main" this week. Mustard we must discuss this more. Or is it ketchup...it was so much easier to figure out your characters when you both played cyrax and sektor damnit. I think Kano is very good. With a first hit bonus meter, he kills you in 2 combos very quickly. That set play can't be ignored.

 

[stamatis]

So,after 9 momths we have a tier list,good job guys.

 

[ienjoywinning]

You can tell your hanging out with Us EU guys in Discord

You're* damn it mantis

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Well I'd say deceptive is the only variation of reptile that could be considered A+, but yeah I know what you mean. The game isn't really old enough for 87 variations to be in an accurate list. But knock it down to 29 character keeping only their useful variations in mind? That's more realistic at this point in the game imo.

We're talking about a community that makes day 1 tier lists. Everyone knows that these aren't ever set in stone. So we might as well make it as clear and accurate as possible for the time being.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

We're talking about a community that makes day 1 tier lists. Everyone knows that these aren't ever set in stone. So we might as well make it as clear and accurate as possible for the time being.

I suppose but that doesn't make day 1 lists any less stupid. Some variations are largely unexplored though. I appreciate that they kept it to what we and they know. Like look at how they fumbled around discussing ferra/torr, im glad they didn't do that for every variation in the game. I understand where you're coming from and I agree that variations are the best type of list, but this is good.

 

[AeWhole]

I totally agree on Goro. But Quan Chi is without a doubt better than all the characters lower than him except for arguably Tremor.

I agree with this on Quan Chi. If Summoner is nerfed I will play Warlock and get ~30% resets that lead to 70% damage. Quan Chi is really good. It's incredibly frustrating playing against a good Kung Lao or Lui Kang or Kobu Jutsu Tanya the pressure is stupid. Without a doubt. Summoner needs the vortex for those matchups and that's saying A LOT about those characters.

liu kang is too low.

We should make a Perfect+ tier for Lui Kang.

 

[SaSSolino]

liu kang is too low.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Honestly im not feeling this list, feels weird, and don't see how liu kang is s+, im liking yomi's recent tier list much better.

 

[Zabru]

Kenshi's placement is no longer an opinion, everyone with a brain knows he is complete trash. Same goes for Jason, both are in need of buffs. Not one or two small tweaks, but a complete overhaul of their tools and framedata. I also feel that at this point these buffs are expected, rather than hoped for.

Make me Balanced once more

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

Your tier list imo is perfect!Just please move erron black one tier.He could possibly be right out side of S.

 

[dennycascade]

worth mentioning:

To prevent maybe more people questioning the jax, sonya and tremor placement, we mentioned multiple times and even in the description of this thread that Tremor could be S+, Jax could be S and sonya could be A+.

I personally still think KJ is a solid character, but I'm a firm believer that it's more the player making the character work rather than the character doing any form of carrying, hence the well rounded tier placement IMO. You don't lose to Kung Jin and say to yourself "that's Kung Jin for you".

Have you ever faced the utter retardedness that is online Bojutsu Kung Jin? I know online scrubbery has nothing to do with tier lists, but this character can be annoying as hell.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

actually, fuck it!

i'm buying Mileena A+, i feel like i agree with what glue and foxy said about her, and she actually have the tools to compete well against the cast.

plus, glue has proved ppl wrong so many times

 

[B. Shazzy]

Such as?

Is Warlock the ony variation you play? Summoner has bigger damage, crazier mixups, better zoning. I prefer Warlock over Sorcerer.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Is Warlock the ony variation you play? Summoner has bigger damage, crazier mixups, better zoning. I prefer Warlock over Sorcerer.

I always thought that Sorcerer and Summoner have a very very strong setplay factor to them, you go to warlock if either A. want to shut down a fullscreen game with f3, or B. You feel the MU demands an armoured reversal to give you a bit more defence.

Warlock is super duper strong, but I do feel it's his weakest by default, just because it's not quite as setplay heavy as the other two.

Sorcerer or summoner catch you without meter in the corner, you're probably guna lose the game. Warlock without two bars in the corner can't enforce the same level of dumbness without putting himself at risk in the process, if you choose not to take the risk, his pressure will end.

 

[SaSSolino]

I agree with this on Quan Chi. If Summoner is nerfed I will play Warlock and get ~30% resets that lead to 70% damage. Quan Chi is really good. It's incredibly frustrating playing against a good Kung Lao or Lui Kang or Kobu Jutsu Tanya the pressure is stupid. Without a doubt. Summoner needs the vortex for those matchups and that's saying A LOT about those characters.



We should make a Perfect+ tier for Lui Kang.

how's your reply an answer to mine... but also written before mine?

 

[B. Shazzy]

I always thought that Sorcerer and Summoner have a very very strong setplay factor to them, you go to warlock if either A. want to shut down a fullscreen game with f3, or B. You feel the MU demands an armoured reversal to give you a bit more defence.

Warlock is super duper strong, but I do feel it's his weakest by default, just because it's not quite as setplay heavy as the other two.

Sorcerer or summoner catch you without meter in the corner, you're probably guna lose the game. Warlock without two bars in the corner can't enforce the same level of dumbness without putting himself at risk in the process, if you choose not to take the risk, his pressure will end.

Right. Quan's whole game is about huge commitment in neutral. Warlock has no safety net for a misread rune, f3, or skull. But, hey, you know sometimes he can make a read, armor for + 30% which is just objectively good tool for a strong character. That's great but like you said Summoner and Sorcer minimize his risk while providing better reward meterless, if only slightly more in Sorcer's case?

I've been meaning to give Sorcer a try soon. I don't feel comfortable without armor at my call tho lol.

 

[Akromaniac27]

i think Mileena is a great character but not A+ material. in the section where she was discussed, alot of emphasis was placed on her b12. while b12 being a great "get the fuck away from me" type string, it can be low profiled which i feel can be a problem depending on how good a characters pokes are. she also gets weighed down by stupid frame data like her F44 being a string that has to be used with certainty. considering all the characters that can just throw out strings for the sake of doing them, she can't.

the reality of Mileena is, she was designed to be a counter-puncher. she has very strong anti-airs, a low profiling and launching whiff punish, and decent zoning. this trait of Mileena shines brighter in Ethereal, where the EX Fade is the ultimate whiff punishing and escape tool. i believe her level of viability is dependent on the player she's up against. she doesn't have the greatest tools for being the offender, but she will fuck you up hard, if you aren't familiar with the mu or are a reckless player. if you're the type of player that likes to jump around and make hasty advances, she'll beat you with her hands tied behind her back. if you're the patient and careful type, you'll give her a tough day at work. i do feel she has the tools to deal with most mu's in the game. but like mentioned earlier, she relies heavily on you to make a mistake or be reckless in general. she has tools, but not the best ones for initiating a solid offense.

anyway, those are my two cents on the empress. i don't think she needs many buffs to become worthy of A+ tier, but with some fixes to some of her bugs and inconsistencies and hopefully more normalization to the top tier characters she would be evened out with alot of the cast.

I agree on the fixes part, but that's kinda it... I genuinely feel that with the fixes, she has a guaranteed spot in A+ without a doubt, and with a poke buff which we DESERVE (along with deserved fixes) since nothing useful as a counter-poke other than roll/EXroll will get us out of pressure, she COULD be S. I've grinded in so many matches and labbed the hell out of her as well as against the other character's tools, that she REALLY feels nowhere near as bad as the impression I got when first getting the game, along with what the majority of the community says.

She IS hella safe. If your choice is to use Ethereal and give up range, speed, OKI, plus frames, additional mixups, and overall meterless play, that's on you (speaking in general terms). No one is making you give up the variation that makes her A+. No one is making you use f44/f4~roll or f4~Exroll. No one is making you commit to EXrolls or rolls on their own when you don't need to. No one is making you do repeated b12's back to back even when you well know which MU's can low profile it. No one is making you do 25% bnbs into a half-assed knockdown when you can corner carry, build meter, and do well over 30% meterless into a death trap. No character can GENUINELY force you/her to play their game because she HAS the option of where she wants to be on the screen; upclose, B12 range or fullscreen. And she has the options in every MU, with Kang slightly being in his favor for his overall safeness.

I made the Flaws and Fixes video because it astounded me how much of her moveset was very much flawed, but telekick empty frames, Air sai recovery and active frames, XRAY bug aside, she doesn't NEED the rest of moveset. The poke buff and b1/b12 being true mids would be great and SHOULD be given to her, but the fixes from the stuff above is what's truly needed to get rid of the inconsistencies.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Right. Quan's whole game is about huge commitment in neutral. Warlock has no safety net for a misread rune, f3, or skull. But, hey, you know sometimes he can make a read, armor for + 30% which is just objectively good tool for a strong character. That's great but like you said Summoner and Sorcer minimize his risk while providing better reward meterless, if only slightly more in Sorcer's case?

I've been meaning to give Sorcer a try soon. I don't feel comfortable without armor at my call tho lol.

All 3 variations have their own differences in the neutral, which can be weird to get used to.

I'm super comfy with sorcerer, but that's only because I've used it since day 1.

 

[Nulak]

Best tier list so far imo.

 

[Tweedy]

@PND_Ketchup and @PND_Mustard you guys are big fans of Smite, right?

Are you familiar with how Dmbrandon does his periodic tier list streams? I think it'd be really cool if you guys did something like that after each major. You could invite a player that did well at that major on to talk about the characters, see if any changes should be made, talk about the event, etc. Would be fun to watch.

 

[ArmedCalf]

That bit about Jacqui vs Orbiting Hat is the truest shit I've ever heard in my life @zoofs

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Jax placement is agreeable to me. He's good, but not so good that you can autopilot your way through much better opponents the way Quan, Lao, Tanya, and others can.

It's not about auto piloting, you gotta look at it assuming the match is played by 2 robots.

Besides, you can't auto pilot with Lao and win, and if you are, they're clearly not better opponents.

Jax always has first option of attack after you block his shit, in this game his rush down is identical to Wonder Woman in injustice (which was dumb as fuck). I am the one that thinks him and Cage should be swapped.

People still thinking Shinnok is so amazing should learn to whiff punish hell sparks, if you take away the sparks he's pretty limited as a character. He really lacks damage (except for matchup specific imposter matches), his methods of opening you up are fuzziable even with the delay.

Sub is top tier because you can technically outplay him the whole round, get put in the corner and die in 2 wrong guesses. Although his midscreen game lacks, it's all designed to push you to the corner in 1 touch.

No character is truly safe against sub when they're cornered. Even characters with options are still limited.


Kung Jin I wouldn't put in A, I'd say A+ For the reasons MiT put.

And the whole Mileena situation, I'm convinced since you lot lost saltface, there's been nobody to actually develop the character (and play the character with full application of theory) to show how good she is, until usedforglue.

People just write her off for no reason other than 'she's unsafe when she does rolls and teleports, and unsafe 5050s', well then, try playing her safe? Considering she has an 11f mid that's + on block, by itself that's rather harassing to a lot of characters. Her walkspeed makes this string do more for her. These 2 things give her an mk9-esque footsie game in that she can easily bait and whiff punish certain reactions from the opponent as a result of blocking the string.

I'd say she's better than Erron for sure, you don't have to respect Erron in the neutral at all, Erron is actually more unsafe than Mileena.

Also, to those who say Liu Kang has slow pokes, that's because he needs slow pokes, it'd be too much to have a 6f low poke that's + on hit for him to start his bs, I explained the way the character works. All it means is that Liu players have to block a single poke, then it's their turn and they get a lot more out of blocking something than most, or they can f1 their way out of staggers cause fuck it he's got a 6f high.

Personally I see no way Lao and Liu can't be in similar placement in MKX because their game plan is so similar.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

@PND_Ketchup and @PND_Mustard you guys are big fans of Smite, right?

Are you familiar with how Dmbrandon does his periodic tier list streams? I think it'd be really cool if you guys did something like that after each major. You could invite a player that did well at that major on to talk about the characters, see if any changes should be made, talk about the event, etc. Would be fun to watch.

As much as people are up and down about DM Brandon, his tier list videos are the main inspiration behind the way we did our list.

It's a bit different in smite though, as patches are so frequent.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Too much Mileena salt, not enough Kano salt.

This is what is believed? That Kano is equal to BS Shinnok, Wrestler Jax, and SQ D'Vorah? Better than Erron? This is what it's come to now?


R.I.P. SaltShaker. GGs.

Agreed. I just haven't had a chance to sit down and type up what I know will (d)evolve into a book by the time I'm done.

It's not a bad list, but some of the underlying logic for the choices is odd.

Did I also hear mentioned that Kano can do 50% mid-screen for THREE bars like that was a good thing? Doesn't he also have to ex-buff for that 50%? (I legit am asking , I think so but not 100% sure). I mean, 3 bars and 10-15% of your life for 50% midscreen from a character that requires a bar of meter just to choose at character selection, when, just as an example, Kotal can get low 40's to high 40's for a bar in SG (depending on choke lv) Ermac gets 41% +/- for NOTHING, Jax pulls 40%+ for a bar, hell Takeda can do low 40's for a bar midscreen, etc etc.

I'm not saying these are all the same thing, but touting the ability to do 50% damage for your entire stock of meter and (if buff is used) 15% of your health on a character that absolutely needs meter for EVERYTHING, is not the kind of tool that I'd brag about, nor use to argue his higher-than-it-should-be tier placement. Just my opinion of course, but when I hear things like that I start to feel like you're bending facts and options around opinions instead of opinions around facts and options.

Also, I listened to the whole video. I don't understand why tourny placement is used to explain some placings but conveniently ignored in some others. Jax being an example. I main him now and he's S. Everything points to S. Even if you feel Tremor out Jax's Jax, Jax himself still out Jax's most/all of a+ Tier and has there been a tournament ever where one of 'the' Jax players was in attendance and didn't place quite well?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Kano in CT has

12f advancing mid, unreactable 5050s, good projectile, good d4, safe armour reversal, good damage, reasonable anti airs, advantage off of ex knife toss and a boarder line stupid corner game.

He's pretty much a better (safer) version of Sonya.