Name your top 5 MKX Characters in order & List one hypothetical Nerf for each

[Compbros]

So you're saying cassie NEEDS safe 50/50s?

Let's say you're Hollywood, you land EX nut punch, you go for one of your mixup strings, your opponent blocks it.....now what? You're either at -11 or -16 depending on the string or you cancel it into a move that's either -4/-3 (duckable and interruptible with armor or, for a lot of the cast, just a reversible special move), -37/-28, -30/-12 (flipkick/EX flipkick) or one of her variation specific special moves, all of which are either full combo punishible or interruptible before they come out.


Does she NEED it? That's a loaded question and one I can't answer in all honesty. Does she need it to be viable? Maybe, maybe not. She has a lot of plus strings but few ways to open an opponent up but people want one way to make those few options (for a bar mind you) safe taken away.


Edit: Cassie excels at neutral, is really good at pressure, and good at opening people up thanks in part to the ability to make her 50/50's safe.

 

[B. Shazzy]

stop crying about ex flip. understand how tools work with a character instead of looking at them in a vaccuum

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I just told you the nerf I requested for his block pressure only applied IF, repeat, IF 1 bar block breakers and meter gain on block weren't enough to balance him already. That means I did not ask for him to be nerfed, I only threw the nerf idea out there as a possible suggestion in such a case. Overpowered would imply that they have a ton of winning match ups and very few losing ones, if any, which they do. What you're saying is the definition of being broken like Kabal or Cyrax, not overpowered. Those 2 characters make nearly every other character in MK9 redundant and useless except maybe Kung Lao and Kenshi. So again, the top tier are overpowered by the definition of being top tier. Not super overpowered but overpowered nonetheless, so they should get slightly nerfed. How that's not common sense to you is baffling to me.

Yeah Kabal is a great example of an OP character. The top tier characters in MKX don't make the others redundant because of how good the balance actualy is. And I don't care that you said "only if one bar block breakers didn't balance him". Holy shit one bar block breakers would make him better, hes building meter because of zoning and block pressure he would always have meter to block break. You just hypothetically gave a character lacking in defensive options a "get off me" tool only costing him a bar. Predator wipes his ass with a bar of meter he can get it so easy, it wouldn't hurt him. Same with the other characters with good meter build, lao, tanya, etc.. would always be able to break. All of which you would know if you actually had predator. How about lets not talk about characters we don't have. Sweet baby J, this is giving me a headache.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

Let's say you're Hollywood, you land EX nut punch, you go for one of your mixup strings, your opponent blocks it.....now what? You're either at -11 or -16 depending on the string or you cancel it into a move that's either -4/-3 (duckable and interruptible with armor or, for a lot of the cast, just a reversible special move), -37/-28, -30/-12 (flipkick/EX flipkick) or one of her variation specific special moves, all of which are either full combo punishible or interruptible before they come out.


Does she NEED it? That's a loaded question and one I can't answer in all honesty. Does she need it to be viable? Maybe, maybe not. She has a lot of plus strings but few ways to open an opponent up but people want one way to make those few options (for a bar mind you) safe taken away.


Edit: Cassie excels at neutral, is really good at pressure, and good at opening people up thanks in part to the ability to make her 50/50's safe.

Thats fair, i was just looking at her tool set compared to the rest of the game and was trying to think of Safe armored moves 10 frames or faster (havent look at other character ohter then raiden for a week or so) and could only come up with cassies ex flip sorry if im wrong

 

[Compbros]

PL suggested armor removal, I'd be for that before making it unsafe.

 

[Goat-City-II]

Yeah Kabal is a great example of an OP character. The top tier characters in MKX don't make the others redundant because of how good the balance actualy is. And I don't care that you said "only if one bar block breakers didn't balance him". Holy shit one bar block breakers would make him better, hes building meter because of zoning and block pressure he would always have meter to block break. You just hypothetically gave a character lacking in defensive options a "get off me" tool only costing him a bar. Predator wipes his ass with a bar of meter he can get it so easy, it wouldn't hurt him. Same with the other characters with good meter build, lao, tanya, etc.. would always be able to break. All of which you would know if you actually had predator. How about lets not talk about characters we don't have. Sweet baby J, this is giving me a headache.

How about you read my comments before you reply, K? Number 1, I already explained why just because the top tier in this game are not broken like Kabal or Cyrax doesn't mean they're not overpowered, but you either didn't read that or completely ignored it. And Number 2, I SAID block breakers should be made 1 bar IN ADDITION to adding 3% of a bar of meter gained for every attack a character blocks. This would balance Predator and other characters' abilities to gain meter quickly with their pressure by giving the opposing character a way of gaining meter as well. Every time Predator hits an opponent's block he gains 6% of a bar of meter, but with my suggestion the opponent who's blocking those same attacks would be gaining 3% of a bar of meter himself, which he could use to break or armor. You completely ignored this point of mine as well. This way pressure characters would still get the meter gain from applying pressure, but the other player would get some as well, so it would be fair. Pressure characters would gain meter on block too, but they won't be blocking nearly as much against non-pressure characters, so the change applies to them much less. The headache you're getting is a result of your own stupidity and stubbornness to keep badgering me about a nerf request that I didn't even make.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How about you read my comments before you reply, K? Number 1, I already explained why just because the top tier in this game are not broken like Kabal or Cyrax doesn't mean they're not overpowered, but you either didn't read that or completely ignored it. And Number 2, I SAID block breakers should be made 1 bar IN ADDITION to adding 3% of a bar of meter gained for every attack a character blocks. This would balance Predator and other characters' abilities to gain meter quickly with their pressure by giving the opposing character a way of gaining meter as well. Every time Predator hits an opponent's block he gains 6% of a bar of meter, but with my suggestion the opponent who's blocking those same attacks would be gaining 3% of a bar of meter which he could use to break or armor. You completely ignored this point of mine as well. This way pressure characters would still get the meter gain from applying pressure, but the other player would get some as well, so it would be fair. Pressure characters would gain meter on block too, but they won't be blocking as much against non-pressure characters, so the change applies to them much less.

Woah there. I don't have a problem with your block breaker idea, it makes more sense after you broke it down, your first post was a little bit cluttered so thanks. I was only frusturated that you want to nerf a character you understand nothing about. Don't even own him, can't even learn him, can't lab him, no point in talking about him. That should be common sense. The block breaker idea isn't bad, but honestly predator doesn't need to be nerfed whatsoever. I guess our definition of OP is different and that's ok. What you would consider "overpowered" I'd consider "really good" so it is what it is I guess.

 

[Goat-City-II]

Woah there. I don't have a problem with your block breaker idea, it makes more sense after you broke it down, your first post was a little bit cluttered so thanks. I was only frusturated that you want to nerf a character you understand nothing about. Don't even own him, can't even learn him, can't lab him, no point in talking about him. That should be common sense. The block breaker idea isn't bad, but honestly predator doesn't need to be nerfed whatsoever. I guess our definition of OP is different and that's ok. What you would consider "overpowered" I'd consider "really good" so it is what it is I guess.

But I already told you I never requested for Predator to be nerfed. It was just an idea I threw out there in case my block breaker and meter gain ideas weren't enough to make him fair to begin with. If someone who's knowledgeable about Predator wants to tell me my idea of giving him a gap to armor through one of his pressure strings would underpower him then they can do so. I'm not presuming to know it's a good idea, I'm just saying it MIGHT be a good idea IF my block breaker and meter gain changes aren't enough to drop him down to A/A+ tier as it is.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

But I already told you I never requested for Predator to be nerfed. It was just an idea I threw out there in case my block breaker and meter gain ideas weren't enough to make him fair to begin with. If someone who's knowledgeable about Predator wants to tell me my idea of giving him a gap to armor through one of his pressure strings would underpower him then they can do so. I'm not presuming to know it's a good idea, I'm just saying it MIGHT be a good idea IF my block breaker and meter gain changes aren't enough to drop him down to A/A+ tier as it is.

But the thing is he's already fair man. He needs no normalization the game has pretty good balance. The top characters don't need to be nerfed, a few thing may need adjusted slightly. If anything the bad characters need buffs to compensate rather than hurt the good characters. He doesn't have insane block pressure the same way cage and LK do, he's a different character.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Hello, My name is Shujinkydink and they call me a Quan Chi downplayer.

Since this is an opinion thread im gonna give my opinion. There are only two characters on this roster who i think need nerfs. Tanya and Kung Lao. Quan chi does not need nerfs!!! He is perfectly fine the way he is and is a top 5 character. Honestly, i wouldn't even care so much if Kung lao didnt get nerfed. But Quan is not a serious threat to the tournament scene. There is currently only one quan chi doing well, and i believe his best placement is 3rd at a major. A lot of people whine and say "oh but hes so broken online, his hard to blockables are pretty much impossible to block." Well imo facts would say otherwise. Ive done some research and here's what ive found.

During the first 5 weeks of ESL, Tanya has been present in the top 8 a total of 10 times. Kung Lao has been present a total of 11 times. You know how many times Quan chi has been in Top 8? not once. His setups and damage are great, and his mixups are annoying, but NOT OP. People clearly know how to beat him and are doing so consistently. The reason balance changes happen in fighting games is for the competitive player, not the casuals, and right now competitively quan doesn't seem to be giving anyone major problems. There's lots of things i would LIKE nerfed in this game, such as sub zeros clone, Kung Lao's tempest spin, hell i even think Erron black could use some toning down, but none of things are neccessary. At this point in the game, infinites and glitches have been mostly removed and we are lucky to even see a new patch. The nerf list should be a very short and very minimal one, and we should be focusing more on buffs to the lower tiers to lessen the gap and make it more enjoyable so everyone can use their character.

Hello, My name is Shujinkydink and they call me a Quan Chi downplayer.

Since this is an opinion thread im gonna give my opinion. There are only two characters on this roster who i think need nerfs. Tanya and Kung Lao. Quan chi does not need nerfs!!! He is perfectly fine the way he is and is a top 5 character. Honestly, i wouldn't even care so much if Kung lao didnt get nerfed. But Quan is not a serious threat to the tournament scene. There is currently only one quan chi doing well, and i believe his best placement is 3rd at a major. A lot of people whine and say "oh but hes so broken online, his hard to blockables are pretty much impossible to block." Well imo facts would say otherwise. Ive done some research and here's what ive found.

During the first 5 weeks of ESL, Tanya has been present in the top 8 a total of 10 times. Kung Lao has been present a total of 11 times. You know how many times Quan chi has been in Top 8? not once. His setups and damage are great, and his mixups are annoying, but NOT OP. People clearly know how to beat him and are doing so consistently. The reason balance changes happen in fighting games is for the competitive player, not the casuals, and right now competitively quan doesn't seem to be giving anyone major problems. There's lots of things i would LIKE nerfed in this game, such as sub zeros clone, Kung Lao's tempest spin, hell i even think Erron black could use some toning down, but none of things are neccessary. At this point in the game, infinites and glitches have been mostly removed and we are lucky to even see a new patch. The nerf list should be a very short and very minimal one, and we should be focusing more on buffs to the lower tiers to lessen the gap and make it more enjoyable so everyone can use their character.

I feel like Quan has to play the odds, which in any one match is favorable, but when stretched out over numerous matches, not so much.

I really don't think he needs to be nerfed. The Quan salt I think comes from how he wins as much as how often. Quan, by design, is miserable to play against. Shrug.

 

[Goat-City-II]

But the thing is he's already fair man. He needs no normalization the game has pretty good balance. The top characters don't need to be nerfed, a few thing may need adjusted slightly. If anything the bad characters need buffs to compensate rather than hurt the good characters. He doesn't have insane block pressure the same way cage and LK do, he's a different character.

But Cage and Liu Kang don't have godlike zoning or a full screen armored launcher. If you want to argue that HQT Predator isn't S tier, which means better than Cage and arguably better than Liu Kang, against the majority that agree he is including YOMI, then do it in reo's tier list thread. DF Liu Kang and A List Johnny Cage also need to be nerfed; I already said this in my original post. My block breaker suggestion would undoubtedly nerf them sufficiently, so if they get nerfed then obviously HQT would need to be nerfed with them.

The reason this game's top tier needs to be nerfed instead of simply buffing low and mid tier characters is because this game's low and mid tier characters are much more honest and promote more skillful gameplay and longer lasting matches. The top tier in this game are top tier because of the absurd damage they get off 50/50s and the ridiculous meter gain and chip damage they get from their stagger and run cancel pressure. If you want better gameplay, then it's better to nerf the top tier before you buff the low tier. It's also much easier to nerf the top tier because they all only need very few and very tiny tweeks as I've already proven, while low and mid tier characters would need a lot more changes that would be less obvious to decide on.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

But Cage and Liu Kang don't have godlike zoning or a full screen armored launcher. If you want to argue that HQT Predator isn't S tier, which means better than Cage and arguably better than Liu Kang, against the majority that agree he is including YOMI, then do it in reo's tier list thread. DF Liu Kang and A List Johnny Cage also need to be nerfed; I already said this in my original post. My block breaker suggestion would undoubtedly nerf them sufficiently, so if they get nerfed then obviously HQT would need to be nerfed with them.

The reason this game's top tier needs to be nerfed instead of simply buffing low and mid tier characters is because this game's low and mid tier characters are much more honest and promote more skillful gameplay and longer lasting matches. The top tier in this game are top tier because of the absurd damage they get off 50/50s and the ridiculous meter gain and chip damage they get from their stagger and run cancel pressure. If you want better gameplay, then it's better to nerf the top tier before you buff the low tier. It's also much easier to nerf the top tier because they all only need very few and very tiny tweeks as I've already proven, while low and mid tier characters would need a lot more changes that would be less obvious to decide on.

JC doesn't need nerfed at all. He is about the most honest character in the game. Just buy and play the predator before acting like you understand him. It's not better to nerf the top befor buffing the bottom. It's better to do it all at once and adjust the stupid shit. If every character had dirt then it's an even playing field full of powerful characters. If everyone got nerfed hard it would be a bunch of weak characters. Would that really accomplish anything. And who besides Quan is getting "absurd damage off of 50/50s" really?

 

[dribirut]

Hqt losing mus:
Tanya
Reptile
Liu Kang
Kung lao
Jax
Possibly shinnok and takeda

 

[Goat-City-II]

JC doesn't need nerfed at all. He is about the most honest character in the game. Just buy and play the predator before acting like you understand him. It's not better to nerf the top befor buffing the bottom. It's better to do it all at once and adjust the stupid shit. If every character had dirt then it's an even playing field full of powerful characters. If everyone got nerfed hard it would be a bunch of weak characters. Would that really accomplish anything. And who besides Quan is getting "absurd damage off of 50/50s" really?

You completely ignored half my points once again. I already explained why the top tier should be nerfed instead of buffing the low tier, because it improves the general gameplay of the game. A List Cage does need to be nerfed along with almost everyone else who is A+ to S tier. Why? Because it would improve the gameplay by making non-skill based guessing games less powerful. Block pressure is not fun and block pressure is not fair unless everyone has it, but if everyone has it then it's just a matter of putting the opponent in a guessing game. Sure, it takes some amount of skill to get the opponent in the guessing game, but the actual guessing itself takes no skill at all. Do you want a fighting game where guessing games are super powerful, or do you want a fighting game where guessing games aren't super powerful? If the latter, then that requires nerfing the top tier's block pressure. Making block breakers 1 bar and adding 3% of a bar of meter gain for blocking an attack would do this universally. Boom, instant top tier nerfed into being more fair and less brain dead while giving lower tier characters more of a chance against them. It's not just about making the game balanced, it's about making the game more fun and more skill based on top of it being balanced.

And I already countered your argument about Predator. Shut the fuck up and let it go, I never acted like I understand him. It was just an idea that would probably work if my original requests weren't sufficient. I was not in any way arguing for it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

You completely ignored half my points once again. I already explained why the top tier should be nerfed instead of buffing the low tier, because it improves the general gameplay of the game. A List Cage does need to be nerfed along with almost everyone else who is A+ to S tier. Why? Because it would improve the gameplay by making non-skill based guessing games less powerful. Block pressure is not fun and block pressure is not fair unless everyone has it, but if everyone has it then it's just a matter of putting the opponent in a guessing game. Sure, it takes some amount of skill to get the opponent in the guessing game, but the actual guessing itself takes no skill at all. Do you want a fighting game where guessing games are super powerful, or do you want a fighting where guessing games aren't super powerful? If the latter, then that requires nerfing the top tier's block pressure. Making block breakers 1 bar and adding 3% of a bar of meter gain for blocking an attack would do this universally. Boom, instant top tier nerfed into being more fair and less brain dead while giving lower tier character more of a chance against them. It's not just about making the game balanced, it's about making the game more fun and more skill based on top of it being balanced.

And I already countered your argument about Predator. Shut the fuck up and let it go, I never acted like I understand him. It was just an idea that would probably work. I was not in any way suggesting it.

I didnt ignore it, I just have no comments to make on those parts. You didn't counter jack shit. You know nothing about the character YOU DONT EVEN HAVE HIM AND YOU ACT TRY TO ARGUE HIS TIER PLACEMENT. He doesn't even have a 50/50 or insane block pressure which is what you seem to be bitching about the most. Youre opinion is irrelevant because you don't have him, therefore you can't even grasp a basic understanding of him. People bitching and moaning is what ruins characters. You talking about making the game fun is all in your opinion. You saying it improves the general gameplay isn't a fact it's your opinion. There's no point trying to reason with you, seeing as you're beyond reason. I'm blocking you have a wonderful day.

 

[dennycascade]

What's all this salt for Liu's MB dragon kick? It whiffs... ALWAYS when I use it. Am I just doing it wrong or what is going on here?

 

[Goat-City-II]

I didnt ignore it, I just have no comments to make on those parts. You didn't counter jack shit. You know nothing about the character YOU DONT EVEN HAVE HIM AND YOU ACT TRY TO ARGUE HIS TIER PLACEMENT. He doesn't even have a 50/50 or insane block pressure which is what you seem to be bitching about the most. Youre opinion is irrelevant because you don't have him, therefore you can't even grasp a basic understanding of him. People bitching and moaning is what ruins characters. You talking about making the game fun is all in your opinion. You saying it improves the general gameplay isn't a fact it's your opinion. There's no point trying to reason with you, seeing as you're beyond reason. I'm blocking you have a wonderful day.

Great, now everyone can see how I make you look like an idiot after I counter your arguments in this comment and you won't be able to reply lol.

 

[Goat-City-II]

I didnt ignore it, I just have no comments to make on those parts. You didn't counter jack shit. You know nothing about the character YOU DONT EVEN HAVE HIM AND YOU ACT TRY TO ARGUE HIS TIER PLACEMENT. He doesn't even have a 50/50 or insane block pressure which is what you seem to be bitching about the most. Youre opinion is irrelevant because you don't have him, therefore you can't even grasp a basic understanding of him. People bitching and moaning is what ruins characters. You talking about making the game fun is all in your opinion. You saying it improves the general gameplay isn't a fact it's your opinion. There's no point trying to reason with you, seeing as you're beyond reason. I'm blocking you have a wonderful day.

The parts that you have no comment to make on are 100% relevant to my points and factually counter your arguments. So when you ignore them, it's essentially a straw man fallacy that you're making because you're purposefully ignoring the reasons I'm giving for my arguments while still trying to counter them. You cannot tell me my opinion is wrong unless you address the reasons I've given for my opinion, which is what you're purposefully not doing. Yes, it's my opinion that nerfing the low tier makes the game more fun and more skill based, but it's an opinion that is backed up by LOGIC. Do you realize that believing murder is wrong is also an opinion, not a fact? But it's an opinion that's backed up by logic. If you can't counter the logic behind my opinion, then you have no grounds to argue against it or tell me that it's wrong. You can have a different opinion, but unless you have logical arguments to back your opinion up, it is objectively a wrong opinion. So if you want to tell me the why the reasons behind my opinion are not logical, then go ahead, but you can no longer do that because you've blocked me out of anger lol, wonderful.

As for what you're still saying about HQT Predator, just because his block pressure is not insane does not mean it is not overpowered. All block pressure is overpowered in this game no matter how good it is for an individual character, which is why it needs to be universally nerfed, which is why Predator needs to be nerfed, because he thrives on block pressure. And again, what he doesn't get in 50/50s he makes up for with arguably the best zoning in the game and a full screen armored launcher along with extremely good pokes and very good air normals. I don't need to have the character to know these simple facts, and if these facts are true then he IS top tier and therefore needs to be slightly nerfed for the reasons I've already given. You lose, gg.

 

[CoolChameleon]

Tanya: delete
Tanya: delete
Tanya: delete
Tanya: delete
Tanya: delete

 

[RTM2004]

1. Kung Lao - Reduce the hitbox on J2, it's too good for jump backs, jump in 2 offense and air to airs.

2.) Quan Chi - Low Bat should probably be a mid in exchange for something else

3.) Tanya - B1 don't kill it but make it fair

4.) Cassie Cage - Shorten the range of B1 it doesn't make sense the move is so fast and covers space instantly in the blink of an eye.
Pre-patch Superman F23

5.) Predator - Nerf EX Plasma projectile radius above him to successful jump over him or njp.

6.) Shinnok - D4~Hell Sparks no longer jails and loses its cancel advantage on block it's TOO abusive.

 

[STRYKIE]

For all the buzz Quan Chi gets from the armchair critics you would think they wouldn't suddenly forget he exists when banging the "Shinnok has 0 bad matchupz" drum.

Alas....

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Hqt losing mus:
Tanya
Reptile
Liu Kang
Kung lao
Jax
Possibly shinnok and takeda

A
P
O
L
O
G
I
Z
E

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

1 - Kung Lao (Tempest)
- Jump 2 hitbox heavily normalized (think Injustice Scorpion jump 3 before and after);
- Hat Spin is now -9 from -3;
- Basic damage scaling on Hat spin combos.

2 - Quan Chi (Summoner)
- All Bat based attacks now cause and have increased damage scaling;
- Quan Chi can only summon the bat once while during a combo.

3 - Tanya (Kobu Jutsu)
- Tonfa Swipe is now -17 from -12;
- Tonfa Swipe > Slash is now -20 from -13;
- Tonfa Swipe > Slash > Push is now -33 from -28.

4 - Shinnok (Boneshaper)
- Dark Beam and Dark Blast is now 20f start-up from 15f;
- Dark Beam and Dark Blast is now -20 from -12

5 - Predator (Hish Qu Ten)
- Add 5 block adv frames to all laser attacks;
- Add 5 recovery frames to all laser attacks.
- Basic damage scaling on all laser combos.

 

[One Inch Punch]

ppl asking liu nerfs : "give it the same as scorpion received about cancels"... cool...
so give liu top 5 air game , instant teleport and high damage mix ups.

plus flame aura

 

[james1926]

KL: give him a normal j2. No adjusted hitbox bs, as it was already fixed supposely. Just remove the hat from j2.

Tanya: b1 10 frames

Quan chi: Remove the pseudo unblockables somehow

Predator: Damage nerf

Cassie: Ex flip punishable