Match-Up Discussion - Mileena Mileena Matchup Discussion

[Jolt]

Hello all,

I don't know all of you and you don't know me (yet), but I want to do my part to make Mileena (all variations) the best character she can be and do my part to help make the Mileena community one of the most knowledgable areas of Test Your Might.

So I thought it would be cool to start work on The Ultimate Mileena Matchup Guide. I intend to include SPECIFIC strategies for each character. This includes character specific combos (for characters with weird hitboxes), responses to a character's options, etc. for EACH variation and of course a recommended variation for each matchup (while still listing responses, strategies, etc. for non-recommended variations)

However, to do this I will DEFINITELY need some help. If anyone already has their own matchup notes collected, I would much appreciate it if you could PM them to me and share. Once I have a portion of the guide done and shareable, I'll post it here.

I feel like this will be extremely beneficial, because although we have some great information here in the matchup thread, it's scattered. Also, having this resource will give us a better idea of specific situations we might want/need to put more lab work in for.

I'm more than willing to compile the information, I just need some players with more offline experience than me to put in some of the legwork.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Vs Hollywood Cassie: don't ever try to F1 her on knock down because her ex nut punch is fully invincible until it hits. (she gets it from her mk9 daddy version, meanwhile her dad's nut punch becomes normal armor)

 

[ZeroEffect]

So I thought it would be cool to start work on The Ultimate Mileena Matchup Guide. I intend to include SPECIFIC strategies for each character. This includes character specific combos (for characters with weird hitboxes), responses to a character's options, etc. for EACH variation and of course a recommended variation for each matchup (while still listing responses, strategies, etc. for non-recommended variations)

http://testyourmight.com/threads/jacqui-strategy-matchup-thread-wip.50610/
^See the 2nd post. This is the format I believe these matchup threads should follow. With the recommended variations and strategy.

 

[Jolt]

http://testyourmight.com/threads/jacqui-strategy-matchup-thread-wip.50610/
^See the 2nd post. This is the format I believe these matchup threads should follow. With the recommended variations and strategy.

Thanks for the link! That format is honestly just about perfect. I've begun scouting for matchup information so I'll start working soon. I'll need to spend a lot of time browsing the other character forums for people whining about Mileena. I'd definitely still appreciate notes/information from anyone that has it. Most of my experience so far is online and that can change things pretty considerably.

While I'm talking about online, I ran into a BS Shinnok online that basically abused his vortex against me.

I know BS Shinnok borders on broken, but is there a whole lot that Mileena can do against his loop? He's -4 (from what I was told, I admittedly haven't looked) after his stupid projectile but it also pushes back. That basically means our only answer is either EX fade or ball roll? Problem being that roll is pretty far from safe and can be baited. If he's -4, then a frame perfect reversal would still leave us neutral so he should be able to block. It didn't help that sometimes the reversals I entered wouldn't come out.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I know BS Shinnok borders on broken, but is there a whole lot that Mileena can do against his loop? He's -4 (from what I was told, I admittedly haven't looked) after his stupid projectile but it also pushes back. That basically means our only answer is either EX fade or ball roll? Problem being that roll is pretty far from safe and can be baited. If he's -4, then a frame perfect reversal would still leave us neutral so he should be able to block. It didn't help that sometimes the reversals I entered wouldn't come out.

Well -4 doesn't mean shit anyway. And most the time when you block it, you'll be far enough away where he may as well be +7. (Unless he's doing it point blank after strings). Not sure what the loop you're referring to is though.

 

[Jolt]

Well -4 doesn't mean shit anyway. And most the time when you block it, you'll be far enough away where he may as well be +7. (Unless he's doing it point blank after strings). Not sure what the loop you're referring to is though.

Very true. If not for the push back though, we would at least have the opportunity for our weak d1 to get us back at advantage after. I was referring to his normal block string:

The "loop" I was reffering to was just the last part (at 8 seconds in the video), where they are out of meter for EX Hellsparks over and over. I haven't labbed the matchup, none of my friends play Shinnok so it hasn't mattered. I couldn't get my pokes to beat out the low, but since I knew he would do it I could ball roll through.

I was at least on mic with the guy and we talked through it for a while to help figure out my options. Now that I'm thinking about it, a NJP probably would have saved me too since he wasn't making reads. We were mostly practicing/labbing it together for me at that point. If he was actually playing and making reads though, roll and jump would both be really risky so EX fade would be pretty much the only 100% choice, right?

 

[ZeroEffect]

The "loop" I was reffering to was just the last part (at 8 seconds in the video), where they are out of meter for EX Hellsparks over and over. I haven't labbed the matchup, none of my friends play Shinnok so it hasn't mattered. I couldn't get my pokes to beat out the low, but since I knew he would do it I could ball roll through.

I was at least on mic with the guy and we talked through it for a while to help figure out my options. Now that I'm thinking about it, a NJP probably would have saved me too since he wasn't making reads. We were mostly practicing/labbing it together for me at that point. If he was actually playing and making reads though, roll and jump would both be really risky so EX fade would be pretty much the only 100% choice, right?

Ah I see. Well the low is 7f which is faster than any move Mileena has. Plus there's a thing in this game where when you use a normal after blocking you are recovering for 1 extra frame. Specials come out instantly.

You might've be able to hit him with Standing 2 or Uppercut, but they lose to D4s and shit. (You said this guy was on autopilot though so that's a non-issue) So yeah Roll, EX Roll, EX Fade, probably NJP/NJK as well. (I recently learned the value of the last one)

 

[ZeroEffect]

Well it seems that in the Full-Auto Jacqui matchup, Mileena's best variation is Piercing, imo. Ethereal can give her some problems with proper EX Fade use, and Ravenous is Ravenous. (More damage, easier mixups, etc.) But Piercing has a few key points:

For one thing, the fixed Low Sai is pretty big in this matchup. Full-Auto has the dreaded Machine Gun, and sure, Mileena can Telekick or Roll on a read to beat it in other variations. Thing is, if you read wrong and she blocks, you get punished really hard since she has meterless 35+ and 1-bar 40+ percent combos. (And Roll might be too far, she might up rocket and beat TK, blah, blah, blah). So instead, you can Low Sai from anywhere on screen and be much safer while beating Machine Gun clean. (The fix now makes her properly go under highs.) Pretty much allows Mileena to win the zoning war in most cases.

Secondly, Piercing's b12 has better range than almost all of JB's normals aside from her D4. (Jacqui is notorious for having short range), so Mileena can base her pokes around b12, f23 and her own D4 to contest her at mid range. And Roll can punish a whiffed D4. Although not as much as Ravenous, Piercing has damage to compete with her to some degree.

Also, Jacqui's armor moves aren't the best. Aside from EX Forces Rush (bf1... the Jet Pack move), you can stuff the rest rather easily with F1 or Standing 3 after ending combos in Sadistics or even ending with Roll.

If Mileena wins the MU on paper, it's mostly by using this variation.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Bone Shaper Shinnok's projectile is -2 if you crouch block it and reversal with a normal, but -3 if you reversal with a special. So our D1 should trade with his next F4 if we frame perfect it and roll should beat out anything I guess, even tho the pushback of the projectile migh make it even less negative and roll would not be 8F if it's not right on his face.

We have to test this, Mileena's only opyion might be to armor out or trade.

 

[Jolt]

Bone Shaper Shinnok's projectile is -2 if you crouch block it and reversal with a normal, but -3 if you reversal with a special. So our D1 should trade with his next F4 if we frame perfect it and roll should beat out anything I guess, even tho the pushback of the projectile migh make it even less negative and roll would not be 8F if it's not right on his face.

We have to test this, Mileena's only opyion might be to armor out or trade.

When I tried d1, the pushback was too much. However, as I said before, it was online. Most likely wasn't frame perfect. D1 already whiffs on just about everything, but at the right timing I think it should be able to smack him in the foot and get us back in the game. I probably won't be able to lab it out myself tonight, but I'll take a look tomorrow. If we have few options against this watered down, brain dead version of Shinnok pressure, we'll definitely be struggling against someone making a legitimate effort with reads and potential mixups. I know we already lose the matchup, but we have to do what we can to make sure it isn't HOPELESS.

EDIT: And also, I guess the reason we SHOULD be crouch blocking it is because he could potentially do the low scoop instead, right? I'm not familiar with the MU

 

[Nu-Skoool]

Ah that's interesting. Will give that a try and appreciate any more advice in the matchup

Was able to go into the lab and b3 is a great anti air against Kung Lao. It can definitely beat j2/j1 on reaction and leads to 31%.

 

[Jolt]

I just had a little time to lab against Shinnok.

If he is ONLY doing f41d2~Dark Beam and repeating that, we can safely jump out, d3 or d4, 1, 2, f2, or b2 (but if you're late on the frames, these will either trade or be interrupted) so for that particular string. If he is ONLY looping that, it's interruptable for a full combo punish offline lol. Online is debatable.

However, he can block in time to guard against ALL of the above options from what I can tell.

We should definitely block the Dark Beam low, because if df2 (Scepter Slam) comes out instead, we will be hit by the low. No time to react. Good news is if he does df2 and we block, he's -29. Because of the risk, it is UNLIKELY (not not impossible) that this will come out so we don't have to worry about it TOO MUCH.

So after we get hit by Dark Beam (df2), we just have to decide whether he will block or continue pressure. If Shinnok has meter though, it's basically GGs regardless. with MB Hell Sparks being +14 and EX Dark Beam being +5, but most of the cast has to deal with that.

I don't know what other options or tactics Shinnok has, I just wanted to learn from my experience. Saw something specific I couldn't personally deal with yet, so I labbed it out. Had I known these options before hand, I would have had a win on the particular Shinnok I ran into

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Damn i wish Mileena's F4 and F3 had the speed of Shinnok's low and overhead. Remember he was the worst character in the game? NRS what the f* have you done?

 

[1man3letters]

mileena can now punish kung jin mb bow spin with the changes to characters being pushed back different amounts, THIS IS HUGE FOR THE MU!

she can punish cages nut punch from stand block now which is handy aswell

 

[Jolt]

Just wanted to give everyone an update that I AM still slowly working on an overly detailed matchup guide. A lot of it is theoretical and based off of frame data alone as I don't have a ton of offline experience.

One thing I'm doing now is going through and checking every character's fastest strings (based off of frame data from here .) I'm specifically checking the fastest (overall) and fastest mids if they aren't the same. Once I get that all done, I can tell which characters specifically can punish which strings (and how). It's admittedly a bit excessive in the knowledge, but I figure MORE is always better than LESS.

I was actually surprised to find that Erron Black can't punish f44 at all as his fastest attack is 8f and we are -8. Should put us to neutral.

EDIT: I should also note, I haven't taken that Erron Black example into training yet and don't have much EB matchup experience lol. Just sharing some preliminary research data. Ultimately, I'll actually TEST my findings as well and see if we can come up with some character-specific strategies based off of the small details

 

[ZeroEffect]

Just wanted to give everyone an update that I AM still slowly working on an overly detailed matchup guide. A lot of it is theoretical and based off of frame data alone as I don't have a ton of offline experience.

One thing I'm doing now is going through and checking every character's fastest strings (based off of frame data from here .) I'm specifically checking the fastest (overall) and fastest mids if they aren't the same. Once I get that all done, I can tell which characters specifically can punish which strings (and how). It's admittedly a bit excessive in the knowledge, but I figure MORE is always better than LESS.

I was actually surprised to find that Erron Black can't punish f44 at all as his fastest attack is 8f and we are -8. Should put us to neutral.

EDIT: I should also note, I haven't taken that Erron Black example into training yet and don't have much EB matchup experience lol. Just sharing some preliminary research data. Ultimately, I'll actually TEST my findings as well and see if we can come up with some character-specific strategies based off of the small details

I think Erron Black can armor through with Sand in Outlaw. And at least he has a 50/50 mixup to use when you're that close unless you can pull off a 1f EX Roll.

 

[Jolt]

I think Erron Black can armor through with Sand in Outlaw. And at least he has a 50/50 mixup to use when you're that close unless you can pull off a 1f EX Roll.

I'll definitely agree that he can armor through the gap, I haven't got that far just yet (but will get there!), if I said it was safe, I shouldn't have. What I should have said is that he has no GUARANTEED punish, but yeah, he can attempt the 50/50 after. Ethereal could EX fade out before he could do anything though.

For sure, pressure is OVER after f44 is blocked, but we still have the opportunity to defend ourselves vs EB at the very least, even if it's a guess.

I promise I intend to be fully thorough with the full matchup data (which will take some time), I'll lab it out, try to find some players of each character to run sets with, and do more than just theory. But for now, I feel like checking frame data and taking notes based off of that is a decent first step

While I'm looking at things, any idea if the information below is still accurate?

Reversal Punish - Because there are no frame perfect punishes, if an attack is -10 and you use a 10 frame reversal special as a punish, the opponent will be able to block the reversal punish attempt. You would need to use a reversal special that is at least 9 frames or faster to punish something -10. Basically, you always need to use a reversal special that is at least 1 frame faster then the opponents negative frames.

Normal Attack Punish - Unlike a reversal punish, normal attacks do not come out on the first possible frame from block but 1 frame after. So if you block an attack that is -10 and try to punish with a 9 frame normal the way you would a 9 frame reversal special, the 9 frame normal comes out in 10 frames and the opponent is able to block. In order to punish with a normal attack you need to use a normal that is at least 2 frames faster then the opponents negative frames.

 

[Jolt]

Quick question, does everyone feel like Ermac (Mystic and MoS) is a bad matchup for Mileena? Could very well be my personal lack of experience, but I am generally coming out over him with Demolition Sonya and I don't think it's a particularly GOOD matchup for her either honestly.

The problem that I find is just that it's hard for her to get in and stay in, but I can't stay OUT either because he has superior range. I'm MOST specifically referring to ethereal, but I didn't fair much better with Piercing. Piercing did better at providing some pressure so I could mix it up once I got in, but it still wasn't what I'd call great.

I can tell that the two characters play similarly in that if you allow them to do what they want, you will die QUICK. If you keep them from gaining momentum though, it's the complete opposite.

 

[Akromaniac27]

No, I don't have the game yet but I am still saving for next gen, and no, these MU numbers aren't accurate; they're like dummy numbers to fill in the spots for show

That aside, I needed a little project to work on, so I figured I'd start helping the Mileena community out in whichever way I could. This is my take on what MAY be (again, just my opinion) the best way to list MU's, at least for now. You have 9 possible MU combinations PER CHARACTER, and realistically, writing them down on spreadsheets would get pretty messy, so I did this(below). I only did a few for now, just as a demonstration as to how it would look. I can easily edit the numbers and update it as time and experience unwinds, so it's not a problem to change the numbers.

*The best way to view it, would be to right-click the image, and select view in another tab, or something along those lines so you don't get a drastic zoom in.

*Side note: This layout more or less DOES allow me to also do the same thing for every other character since all I would need to do would be to edit the variation titles at the top, so if ANY other mains are interested in this layout as well, PM me

 

[BeastOfManila]

Any tips* on Jax players who are too happy to spam 1's? Rav player here.

I haven't seen much HW Jax action but my friends have been complaining about it. What is it basically and what can Mileena do to fight it>?

(outside EX roll and EX fade).

 

[TheGabStandard]

Any tips* on Jax players who are too happy to spam 1's? Rav player here.

I haven't seen much HW Jax action but my friends have been complaining about it. What is it basically and what can Mileena do to fight it>?

(outside EX roll and EX fade).

Jax's normals and pressure is pretty decent and Mileena struggles against anyone with decent pressure. Unfortunately outside of using armour in gaps, EX Fade in gaps or if you are brave enough to use normal Roll in the gaps, there isn't much she really can do. D4 on hit by Jax guarantees F21 (which is +1) from memory which makes his D1 6 frames on start up and his D3 is neutral so it can start his pressure. 11 on hit guarantees a 50/50 between B2 (can be option selected to Dash Punch) or B3 but also on block it is +2. Also his 12 string is fast enough to break armour and with a Rocket Cancel can continue into a full combo. Any success I have against Jax is by zoning him out and reacting to any projectiles he throws with Telekick as they are on the slow side. If he spams 1's, armour/EX Fade is your go to option, unless you try D3/regular Roll to see if they low profile.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Jax's normals and pressure is pretty decent and Mileena struggles against anyone with decent pressure. Unfortunately outside of using armour in gaps, EX Fade in gaps or if you are brave enough to use normal Roll in the gaps, there isn't much she really can do. D4 on hit by Jax guarantees F21 (which is +1) from memory which makes his D1 6 frames on start up and his D3 is neutral so it can start his pressure. 11 on hit guarantees a 50/50 between B2 (can be option selected to Dash Punch) or B3 but also on block it is +2. Also his 12 string is fast enough to break armour and with a Rocket Cancel can continue into a full combo. Any success I have against Jax is by zoning him out and reacting to any projectiles he throws with Telekick as they are on the slow side. If he spams 1's, armour/EX Fade is your go to option, unless you try D3/regular Roll to see if they low profile.

Does D3/D4 still go under his F21? Or was that changed in the patch?

 

[TheGabStandard]

Does D3/D4 still go under his F21? Or was that changed in the patch?

I actually can't remember, will check when I get home.

 

[BeastOfManila]

ugh! im at work...would've loved to check if d3/d4 can also dodge mid moves (ie: 2nd hit of jax's 1-1 string). here's to hoping that it *can* work.

 

[Kaneki]

How does everyone else feel about the Ethereal vs Jax matchup? I feel like EX Fade will clearly get you out of most of the corner situations with Jax. But aside from that I feel like Jax pressure just dominates and a good Jax can easily carry you to the corner and often I'm forced to play defensively.