General/Other - Ninjitsu Anyone else feels that Ninjutsu is missing something?

[Scoot Magee]

My stance here is that: where ninjutsu stands now it's not probable for us to win. If the opponent just takes the throw every time, it'll take 9 throws. If they duck it once, we'll take the damage of at least 3, if not more, into a set up for more damage. I'm not saying that we don't have options, I'm just saying that our options combined aren't sufficient to make Ninjutsu a viable character. I would love to be wrong a watch a high level match of a ninjutsu player getting openings off knockdowns and controlling the neutral. I mean all cons aside, we only need to land 3 whiff punishes to win. B2, F2, and Njp and deal at least 33%. B3 does less, but with some meter it can also do a third.

I never said those moves were useless. It was a question because I had not found a viable use for them. It sounds like 4 has a niche use to it. 1 has more range is good advantage on block, but the push back on 4 is worth something. Do you have any viable uses for the rest of the moves on that list?

I think Ninjitsu is viable and maybe in the upper mid tier. Granted I lack match experience vs a decent amount of characters but I think I have a decent understanding of ninjitsu.

It's not like Ninjitsu is just go for grabs and f2, there's a lot more to it than that imo. D4 is an amazing option with the threat of f2 and b2. D4 leads to +18 on hit and can start your whole offense. They will respect and crouch block your high 9 frame st1 that leaves you at advantage again. If people think you will throw they will try to counter it in some way. Some people will eat a ton of throws in a row to play it safe but I just put you in the corner and got a massive life lead. Positioning is huge with ninjitsu, it's not just about the damage he's getting. Harass with s1 into grab, finish 114, d3 and etc. they will push bottuns because they have to. Everything relies on the threat of f2 and b2. When those moves are respected there's a whole lot you can do.

When they respect grab start doing things like b121 when up close instead of grab. It does 14% and pushes them to the corner. It's also -1 which leaves you open to walk back for whiff punish or d1. Everything relies on the threat of f2 and b2. When those moves are respected there's a whole lot you can do.

He also has his teleport which can completely turn around a match at any time. Mixed with all his other options his teleport can be extremely useful. You have to keep people honest with it and it requires risk but imo it's what keeps him viable.

I don't think the use of st4 is very niche. There's a lot of good options Scorpion can go for from the positioning granted after st4 is blocked. The range of the move is irrelevant to me because I pretty much mostly use it after a landed teleport. The character is all about positioning so being able to push somebody to a preferred distance is a big deal. 8 frame d4 works great in that situation and you can either grab or space out harder to punish b2's off the d4.

I'm not the best but I have some matches uploaded in the video thread of mostly ninjitsu. I pretty much started playing it heavily after the June 25th patch. I feel I can compete with the tools given but there's obviously better characters. I'm not claiming Scorpion is anywhere above Upper mid tier but that's ok with me.

 

[Slips]

I agree with both of you @K3DC and @Scoot Magee. I agree with K3DC that mixing up throw with whiff punish setups are more solid setups than actual mixups and I also agree that mixing up throws with Scorpion's current set of strings doesn't warrant enough damage. The only string that is safe is b121 and it doesn't get much damage. Everything else he has either starts off with a high or is punishable.

But I think Scoot is right about how many throws Scorpion will get because his footsies with f2, njp and b2 are super strong.

In short, I think the throw/strike guessing game is ultimately not in Scorp's favor at point blank. But it's easy to get run ups throws once they get into his f2 range.

That's why I wish his f2 was unpunishable up close. It'd be perfect to mix up throws with since it's hard to backdash and hard to jump out of.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I know that his method of opening people up is not as good as others but I do think he's viable as is. I'm not going to argue against something like f2 being safe though. That would be amazing.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I agree with both of you @K3DC and @Scoot Magee. I agree with K3DC that mixing up throw with whiff punish setups are more solid setups than actual mixups and I also agree that mixing up throws with Scorpion's current set of strings doesn't warrant enough damage. The only string that is safe is b121 and it doesn't get much damage. Everything else he has either starts off with a high or is punishable.

But I think Scoot is right about how many throws Scorpion will get because his footsies with f2, njp and b2 are super strong.

In short, I think the throw/strike guessing game is ultimately not in Scorp's favor at point blank. But it's easy to get run ups throws once they get into his f2 range.

That's why I wish his f2 was unpunishable up close. It'd be perfect to mix up throws with since it's hard to backdash and hard to jump out of.

I think with scorpions fast normals and good advantage his up close game can be very annoying for people. At mid screen after a st.1 the best safe follow up imo is d3 and it's perfect for dealing with neutral crouch. It grants 12 frames of advantage and leads to more of the same situation. I literally harass the shit out of people with low damage and frame advantage slowly pushing to the corner with d4, grabs and b121.

Backing people to the corner is extremely good with ninjutsu and makes his f2 game stronger. They can't back dash f2 and it can stop jumps in the early frames even from max range. B2 from max range becomes harder to punish and will stop jump attempts as well. I think ninjutsu is extremely strong when players lose their ability to walk back, you can do a lot of damage from max d4 and f2 range very safely just by hanging just outside of the other characters range. They have to do something eventually.

Even though f2 and b2 along with all scorpions specials outside of ex spear are punishable on block he can be played very safely with the right spacing. The most a lot of characters can do is press the advantage after a blocked f2 but if you keep them honest with ex teleport in that situation it really helps keep momentum, especially if they didn't have a turn to do anything for a while. In situations like this it becomes a lot easier to make a good read because of all the conditioning.

I know people know the character pretty well but I feel his game up close is more beneficial than people give credit for. I also think match ups play a huge roll so you may not see the same success vs some.

Also I just want to add that even though 114 starts high it's a very good tool. When using St1 for tick throws you can just safely finish the 114 string and confirm into a teleport combo if they let go of block at all. Even if blocked d1 will beat most follow ups which will earn respect and allow scorpion to move freely to optimum range after the string. You can judge the range on the fly to determine if the d1 will whiff so I don't really think that's an issue. This string can be armored between the 2nd and 3rd hit though but it's not consistent.

 

[Slips]

I think with scorpions fast normals and good advantage his up close game can be very annoying for people. At mid screen after a st.1 the best safe follow up imo is d3 and it's perfect for dealing with neutral crouch. It grants 12 frames of advantage and leads to more of the same situation. I literally harass the shit out of people with low damage and frame advantage slowly pushing to the corner with d4, grabs and b121.

Backing people to the corner is extremely good with ninjutsu and makes his f2 game stronger. They can't back dash f2 and it can stop jumps in the early frames even from max range. B2 from max range becomes harder to punish and will stop jump attempts as well. I think ninjutsu is extremely strong when players lose their ability to walk back, you can do a lot of damage from max d4 and f2 range very safely just by hanging just outside of the other characters range. They have to do something eventually.

Even though f2 and b2 along with all scorpions specials outside of ex spear are punishable on block he can be played very safely with the right spacing. The most a lot of characters can do is press the advantage after a blocked f2 but if you keep them honest with ex teleport in that situation it really helps keep momentum, especially if they didn't have a turn to do anything for a while. In situations like this it becomes a lot easier to make a good read because of all the conditioning.

I know people know the character pretty well but I feel his game up close is more beneficial than people give credit for. I also think match ups play a huge roll so you may not see the same success vs some.

Also I just want to add that even though 114 starts high it's a very good tool. When using St1 for tick throws you can just safely finish the 114 string and confirm into a teleport combo if they let go of block at all. Even if blocked d1 will beat most follow ups which will earn respect and allow scorpion to move freely to optimum range after the string. You can judge the range on the fly to determine if the d1 will whiff so I don't really think that's an issue. This string can be armored between the 2nd and 3rd hit though but it's not consistent.

Like I said before, I think the standing 1 pressure is decent but nobody is shaking in their boots because of it. If someone is attempting to get out of my throw I sure as hell want to punish them hard for it. Not get a d3, d4 or b121 and push them away.

And that's if your opponent is completely falling for the pressure. There are just too many ways to get out of it. There are too many variables. People jumping out, mashing a poke, armor, backdashing, all of those require a different read to really punish them for it. Which is why I consider them standing 1 stuff as strong setups, not a mathematically sound means of offense.

Every good character that has to rely on throws either a) has good pressure or b) has an unpunishable launcher you can mix up the throw with. Ninj Scorp has neither which is why I wish f2 was safe.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Like I said before, I think the standing 1 pressure is decent but nobody is shaking in their boots because of it. If someone is attempting to get out of my throw I sure as hell want to punish them hard for it. Not get a d3, d4 or b121 and push them away.

And that's if your opponent is completely falling for the pressure. There are just too many ways to get out of it. There are too many variables. People jumping out, mashing a poke, armor, backdashing, all of those require a different read to really punish them for it. Which is why I consider them standing 1 stuff as strong setups, not a mathematically sound means of offense.

Every good character that has to rely on throws either a) has good pressure or b) has an unpunishable launcher you can mix up the throw with. Ninj Scorp has neither which is why I wish f2 was safe.

I get it, I'm just a chronic up player.

 

[Slips]

I get it, I'm just a chronic up player.

If it works for you then by all means. I need to use it more myself honestly. Especially in mu's where characters can punish f2 pretty harder.

 

[NY-Shadow]

For the last time. Ninjutsu is missing three things.

1. Away+3,2 cancelable into a special and Toward+4.

2. 2,1,2 combo missing in Hellfire and Inferno Variations.

3. Ninjutsu needs to be able to throw projectile swords.

 

[Matix218]

For the last time. Ninjutsu is missing three things.

1. Away+3,2 cancelable into a special and Toward+4.

2. 2,1,2 combo missing in Hellfire and Inferno Variations.

3. Ninjutsu needs to be able to throw projectile swords.

Why do you think ninjitsu needs a projectile? Not every character has to have a projectile just for the sake of having one. I personally don't see how this is needed for Ninjitsu to be "more viable" at all. This variation is about ranged normals and spacing those ranged normals. Projectiles would not be important in the scope of his design

 

[JTB123]

Ninjutsu with even a semi decent projectile would be dumb as fuck. Think about what else he has that would compliment a projectile in this variation, B2 alone would make it very tough to get in on him, but he also has his teleport, F2, J3, F3 and D4.

Ninjutsu is fine, just takes a lot of work and knowledge to use it effectively.

 

[NY-Shadow]

Why do you think ninjitsu needs a projectile? Not every character has to have a projectile just for the sake of having one. I personally don't see how this is needed for Ninjitsu to be "more viable" at all. This variation is about ranged normals and spacing those ranged normals. Projectiles would not be important in the scope of his design

Well because almost every character in the game has exchange projectiles throughout all variations but not Scorpion. Ninjutsu is useless against heavy projectile characters because Ninjutsu's mixup options via pressure are very weak and limited. Sword or shuriken projectiles would be appropriate for the character given such a heavy projectile fighting game. That would make Scorpion complete as a well built and well rounded competitive character. If anyone doesn't agree with this is either because they hate Scorpion, don't use or have ever used Scorpion enough, or just knows nothing about this game.

 

[lemmywinks]

Maybe another one button meterless combo.

 

[NY-Shadow]

Ninjutsu with even a semi decent projectile would be dumb as fuck. Think about what else he has that would compliment a projectile in this variation, B2 alone would make it very tough to get in on him, but he also has his teleport, F2, J3, F3 and D4.

Ninjutsu is fine, just takes a lot of work and knowledge to use it effectively.

His Toward+3 needs more range like Tremors similar move. His jump 3? Every character has a jump 3 lol. His Down+4? Every character has a Down+4 lol. You must be of the crowd that accepts garbage as food when it comes to fighting games. lol

 

[NY-Shadow]

Maybe another one button meterless combo.

Like Kitana.

 

[Matix218]

Well because almost every character in the game has exchange projectiles throughout all variations but not Scorpion. Ninjutsu is useless against heavy projectile characters because Ninjutsu's mixup options via pressure are very weak and limited. Sword or shuriken projectiles would be appropriate for the character given such a heavy projectile fighting game. That would make Scorpion complete as a well built and well rounded competitive character. If anyone doesn't agree with this is either because they hate Scorpion, don't use or have ever used Scorpion enough, or just knows nothing about this game.

You are flat out wrong.

First off, this is not a heavy projectile fighting game. If anything zoning (outside of a couple of select characters like HQT pred and Quan) is pretty much weaker than any other NRS game to date. This is a fast paced, in your face, pressure/mixup rushdown heavy game and if you have not realized that I would question your knowledge of the game itself.

Also Ninjitsu scorpion has one of the absolute best anti zoning tools in the game. His EX teleport gives people a reason not to sit back and just mindlessly throw fireballs or they will eat 30+ percent into a standing reset with scorpion at massive frame advantage right in their face.

No offense man but it sounds like you are the one that knows nothing about this game and this character.

 

[Matix218]

His Toward+3 needs more range like Tremors similar move. His jump 3? Every character has a jump 3 lol. His Down+4? Every character has a Down+4 lol. You must be of the crowd that accepts garbage as food when it comes to fighting games. lol

yes, everyone has a jump 3, and scorpion has probably the BEST jump 3 in the game. They do not all have the same properties man. You are just embarrassing yourself.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

...yeah, this is just a trainwreck at this point...

 

[NY-Shadow]

yes, everyone has a jump 3, and scorpion has probably the BEST jump 3 in the game. They do not all have the same properties man. You are just embarrassing yourself.

No offense but you seem like you know nothing of this game to be stating the game is not a heavy projectile game when over 25 of its characters are projectile based characters throughout all their variations. I don't know if you're downplaying for other characters or what but take the time to actually learn more than one character is my advice to you. Honestly, I woud'nt make myself look so stupid by even having the idea by what you said in this game not being a heavy projectile. Sorry but you are dead wrong, or just a total newb.

 

[Matix218]

No offense but you seem like you know nothing of this game to be stating the game is not a heavy projectile game when over 25 of its characters are projectile based characters. I don't know if you're downplaying for other characters or what but take the time to actually learn more than one character is my advice to you. Honestly, I woud'nt make myself look so stupid by even having the idea by what you said in this game not being being a heavy projectile. Sorry but you are dead wrong, or just a total newb.

Ok I'm done here...

Just for fun though, please list these 25 projectile based characters for me. Pretty please...

 

[NY-Shadow]

Ok I'm done here...

Just for fun though, please list these 25 projectile based characters for me. Pretty please...

Uh you're not worth the list if you even have to ask for that when you have the game. lol, smh. Just check out the character select screen. That's if you 're even talking about MKX right?

 

[Matix218]

Uh you're not worth the list if you even have to ask for that when you have the game. lol, smh. Just check out the character select screen. That's if you 're even talking about MKX right?

Good job! since there are NOT 25 projectile based characters in this game I did not expect you to be able to produce said list.

That's the response I thought you would give...

 

[NY-Shadow]

Good job! since there are NOT 25 projectile based characters in this game I did not expect you to be able to produce said list.

That's the response I thought you would give...

I think you should take your own advice two comments ago "ok I'm done here" because the longer you stay and refute this argument the dumber you make yourself look. Sorry, no offense just being honest here.

 

[NY-Shadow]

Good job! since there are NOT 25 projectile based characters in this game I did not expect you to be able to produce said list.

That's the response I thought you would give...

I'm also glad you knew I wouldn't answer such a dumb question by producing such an unnecessary list. Kudos on that.

 

[Matix218]

Gotta love TYM...

 

[NY-Shadow]

Gotta love TYM...

I like the name Test Your Might but not most of its members and staff.