General/Other - Kano Coach Steve's Kano Change List for Potential New Patch

[Derptile]

As it stands, you can do 112 xx DF2EX 112 xx DF2EX before the first 1 whiffs, plus, the fact that 112 has a clear gap in it, so you'd basically have 10 frames to get a 9f B1 in there. It'd never be to the level of pre patch Lao/Shinnok.

And I do think that Cyber is a good zoning character, but against most of the played cast his zoning can be neutralized without too much effort. Which is why I really think they should give love to the up close game as well.

Oh whoops, forgot about that 11(gap)2. Never mind then, it'd be fair considering there are characters like Dragon's fire Liu Kang who zone better than Cybernetic and have a pressure game of the gods.

 

[Youphemism]

I think the main reason NRS wouldn't make his Ex knives +10 or so is that off a jump in you could do 112 Ex knives and just jail them for however many bars you have. It wouldn't be broke, but NRS doesn't like having funky looking stuff like that in game(FistiCage b121 nerfs)

And for as long as this game exists I will always complain about B1. They could've just fixed it so that it went from +2 to 0 or even -1 and since everyone has a 8 frame move it wouldn't have been a problem. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, that shit was made -2(not that big of a deal) and nuked in recovery(huge).

@Youphemism Well he sure as hell ain't a good zoning character I can tell you that. Also why would he have +5 knives if he wasn't a zoner? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Lol you'll complain about B1? Sorry it isn't the best normal in the game that does everything, ie trip guarding, anti-airing AND pressuring but Cybernetic isn't designed for pressure in the first place. Vanilla B1 has clearly gotten to you because for some reason you think he's supposed to be this substantial pressure character when that's the opposite of the point since he's defensive. To fix the bug that was causing moves to randomly be neutral or plus on block they had to increase the recovery on a bunch of moves, B1 was one of them. Sorry it doesn't practically block infinite some characters any more. If you can't condition the opponent to respect your options after a B1 now then that's not Kanos fault, you shouldn't need a normal that was practically a block infinite on some characters to find him good. There's a reason knives are mid, he is obviously supposed to zone. What do you think he does against Cassie? Raiden? Jax? Just goes in, does a B1 and gets put in the corner? He might not be the best zoner but he is a zoner. You are HIGHLY overexaggerating the effect the change in recovery to B1 had, you can still mix up between B1 and B13, it's only -2 on block and it still does everything else the same way so I don't see what the problem is. He has +5 knives to give him some sort of rushdown capability because he's a defensive character and it gives some balance, which I thought would be an obvious design point.

 

[DFC]

Also, since most people block Kano low, doesn't that basically make B1 neutral anyway?

 

[Error]

Maybe give ex ball cancel more hit advantage so that he (commando) can do damage midscreen outside of training mode and combo videos.

 

[Derptile]

Lol you'll complain about B1? Sorry it isn't the best normal in the game that does everything, ie trip guarding, anti-airing AND pressuring but Cybernetic isn't designed for pressure in the first place. Vanilla B1 has clearly gotten to you because for some reason you think he's supposed to be this substantial pressure character when that's the opposite of the point since he's defensive. To fix the bug that was causing moves to randomly be neutral or plus on block they had to increase the recovery on a bunch of moves, B1 was one of them. Sorry it doesn't practically block infinite some characters any more. If you can't condition the opponent to respect your options after a B1 now then that's not Kanos fault, you shouldn't need a normal that was practically a block infinite on some characters to find him good. There's a reason knives are mid, he is obviously supposed to zone. What do you think he does against Cassie? Raiden? Jax? Just goes in, does a B1 and gets put in the corner? He might not be the best zoner but he is a zoner. You are HIGHLY overexaggerating the effect the change in recovery to B1 had, you can still mix up between B1 and B13, it's only -2 on block and it still does everything else the same way so I don't see what the problem is. He has +5 knives to give him some sort of rushdown capability because he's a defensive character and it gives some balance, which I thought would be an obvious design point.

Um, did you not read where I clearly stated that I didn't want +2 B1(which was broke), but wanted one with much better recovery? Frame data could be 0, -1, or even the -2 it is now but the recovery change has got to go. Cybernetic is designed to be a Jack of all Trades character that can be up in your face or zone you depending on the MU, now that nearly every dedicated zoner has gotten massive buffs(Liu Kang, Kitana, Kenshi, Shinnok) and HQT Pred. exists so Kano's zoning is hardly anything to write home about.

So his zoning is not impressive, his pressure game is laughable(B1 and B13 guessing game is the most poverty shit ever), and he doesn't do much damage. But wait you might say, 'He has good footsies and movement", yeah well I agree to that and I also say play Cutthroat because it'll actually be put to use. At this point I'm just assuming that you're just saying Cybernetic is good out of pride.

Also @Error We discussed about giving Commando Cutthroat's f212, thoughts?

 

[FlappyDaniel]

a string we can use to launch? hell yeah.

edit: probably get F212, F212, B1B1B13xxRib Break at LEAST, which would help a lot with him just having consistent damage.

 

[DFC]

a string we can use to launch? hell yeah.

edit: probably get F212, F212, B1B1B13xxRib Break at LEAST, which would help a lot with him just having consistent damage.

Give Commando F212 I guess, but Also give it an Air Grab? Or are we going overboard since it aleady has 5 variation specific specials?

 

[FlappyDaniel]

He doesn't need an air grab.

 

[Derptile]

B1 is probably better than most AA grabs in this game anyways.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Exactly. Kotal JIP actually shits all over B1, but he's the only one I've fought/Am aware of that just shuts down the AA, and I may have just not been doing it as soon as I could have in the Long set I played with a local Kotal recently.

 

[DFC]

Need? No, but I wasn't thinking about it as an anti air. It'd be cool to have one as a combo extender(especially if a popup string were added). Something like [Popup starter] EX Air Grab RC 32 32 xx DBF4

 

[ando1184]

@Youphemism, to me cyber feels more like a pressure/footsie character as well. Yeh knives are a zoning tool but there's absolutely nothing special about them. At his current state he seems like a prototype for what mournful kitana can do. She has has a mid projectile that's OH in the air and allows full on pressure both midscreen and in the corner. Kano can't do any of that right now, he can't even direct his projectiles, cancel them, or do big damage wether they're EX'd or not. So I really don't see him as a zoner at all with his toolkit being more focused on his normals, safe strings, and long range specials. He just feels like he's meant to keep the opponent grounded and in front of him to me. Don't get me wrong, they need to improve on that aspect as well (pressure) because it's sub par compared to real pressure characters in this game (boj Tanya, mournful kit, temp lao). But compared to his zoning, you can't consider him a zoning character because his knives don't function at the "zoning" level as the other zoning characters in this game.

 

[MrInsaynne]

The vanilla B1 can't come back. He had some 9-1 match ups because of it and it was never intended to be that way. Right now, I feel like Kano is in that delicate state where he's one buff away from S tier so they have to be careful.

The projectile in cybernetic is a great projectile, but I won't deny that it is slightly weak. Patient players that don't mind taking the chip until they get in once are dealing with it correctly. Also some characters (off the top of my head, Kano in the mirror and Shinnok) can low profile it with D4s. If the mids did 1% more ( can't do too much, they are mids after all. And 0.50% more chip) and the EX did 1.5 or 2% more (no more chip, 4.12 is very good for a move that's +5 on block) I think that I'd leave cyber alone after that.

 

[Derptile]

Exactly. Kotal JIP actually shits all over B1, but he's the only one I've fought/Am aware of that just shuts down the AA, and I may have just not been doing it as soon as I could have in the Long set I played with a local Kotal recently.

Kotal and Kung Lao are probably the 2 characters(maybe to extent SZ and Possessed Kenshi) whose JIPs you can't AA, it's better backdash/dash to tripguard and punish. Or in Commando's case, get 18%.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Need? No, but I wasn't thinking about it as an anti air. It'd be cool to have one as a combo extender(especially if a popup string were added). Something like [Popup starter] EX Air Grab RC 32 32 xx DBF4

It would certainly look cool, but I'd rather not introduce redundancies to a character that barely works to start with (a little overexaggeration). Like was said; and I know you're aware of; we have B1 in Kommando Doug and we have Upball (Armored and not) which absolutely is NOT as inconsistent or unreliable as you guys are all trying to make it sound like it is. I agree that it has some issues but I rarely run into them. and we have Air Kano ball which also beats most jumps if timed correctly. That's 3 fairly reliable (And in B1's case very reliable) AAs that we have; we don't need any more.

edit: if they gave us an air throw they would have to nerf one of his other AA options probably.

 

[DFC]

It would certainly look cool, but I'd rather not introduce redundancies to a character that barely works to start with (a little overexaggeration). Like was said; and I know you're aware of; we have B1 in Kommando Doug and we have Upball (Armored and not) which absolutely is NOT as inconsistent or unreliable as you guys are all trying to make it sound like it is. I agree that it has some issues but I rarely run into them. and we have Air Kano ball which also beats most jumps if timed correctly. That's 3 fairly reliable (And in B1's case very reliable) AAs that we have; we don't need any more.

Next time I play a set against my buddy I gotta record it, he can JP me out of up ball at will.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Regular up ball is definitely only good if you delay it to place it to interrupt startup frames; I agree that as a naked AA it's shit, but EX up ball is good as an AA and Get off me Wakeup, as well as being a good mobility tool if you get in a stick situation since it recovers quickly. Regular Upball should only be used as like an ender if you want them to quickstand. CT Has the weakest AA game of the variations because he lacks the good B1 but giving commando an air throw wont help CT.

 

[Derptile]

The vanilla B1 can't come back. He had some 9-1 match ups because of it and it was never intended to be that way. Right now, I feel like Kano is in that delicate state where he's one buff away from S tier so they have to be careful.

The projectile in cybernetic is a great projectile, but I won't deny that it is slightly weak. Patient players that don't mind taking the chip until they get in once are dealing with it correctly. Also some characters (off the top of my head, Kano in the mirror and Shinnok) can low profile it with D4s. If the mids did 1% more ( can't do too much, they are mids after all. And 0.50% more chip) and the EX did 1.5 or 2% more (no more chip, 4.12 is very good for a move that's +5 on block) I think that I'd leave cyber alone after that.

Vanilla B1 was super broke, it was +2 on block and only had 13 frames of recovery, right now it's -2 and has more than 20 frames of recovery(not sure on current recovery frames). I'm not asking for vanilla, but something along the lines of being 0 or -1 frames on block and having ~17/18 recovery frames instead.

I feel like Cybernetic is very close to being what he should be, a 1-2% buff for normal projectile and 3% for Ex or changing B1 to above suggestions and B1/B23 1+3 being -2 to 0 on block would be what he needs, a slight buff to frame data or projectiles. Don't you think that would be fair?

 

[thlityoursloat]

Vanilla B1 was super broke, it was +2 on block and only had 13 frames of recovery, right now it's -2 and has more than 20 frames of recovery(not sure on current recovery frames). I'm not asking for vanilla, but something along the lines of being 0 or -1 frames on block and having ~17/18 recovery frames instead.

I feel like Cybernetic is very close to being what he should be, a 1-2% buff for normal projectile and 3% for Ex or changing B1 to above suggestions and B1/B23 1+3 being -2 to 0 on block would be what he needs, a slight buff to frame data or projectiles. Don't you think that would be fair?

It should be 0 or even +1. SZ's d3 is 8 frames and 0 on block and Predator's d1 is 9 frames and +1 on block meaning you have an 8 frame window to punish/counter poke, which isn't really much of a problem since everybody already has an 8 frame poke.

 

[Derptile]

It should be 0 or even +1. SZ's d3 is 8 frames and 0 on block and Predator's d1 is 9 frames and +1 on block meaning you have an 8 frame window to punish/counter poke, which isn't really much of a problem since everybody already has an 8 frame poke.

1 frame to unblock, meaning that 7 frame moves would trade with it so it be be absurdly strong. 0, -1, or -2 on block are all fine options, the only thing that really needs changing is the recovery.

 

[thlityoursloat]

How is it that SZ's d3 isn't a block infinite then? I can counter poke it with 8 frame pokes just fine.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

The app says his D3 is a 9 frame move with -1 on block.

 

[Derptile]

How is it that SZ's d3 isn't a block infinite then? I can counter poke it with 8 frame pokes just fine.

You can just backdash if SZ is mashing D3, also I'm pretty sure you can just jump out of it since it has a funky down facing hitbox.

@FlappyDaniel, it is indeed 8 frames and 0 on block, but has terrible range and SZ's D4 is alot better.

 

[thlityoursloat]

You can just backdash if SZ is mashing D3, also I'm pretty sure you can just jump out of it since it has a funky down facing hitbox.

@FlappyDaniel, it is indeed 8 frames and 0 on block, but has terrible range and SZ's D4 is alot better.

That's not my point. My point is that it's counter pokeable despite it being neutral on block.

 

[Derptile]

That's not my point. My point is that it's counter pokeable despite it being neutral on block.

Then your opponents are fucking up, simple as that.