General/Other - Kano Coach Steve's Kano Change List for Potential New Patch

[Kinetic Demise]

Well first things first the amount of matches you play with a character make no difference to how right your opinion is because someone that's played more matches than all of the Kano community combined could still be shit. But secondly that change would make no difference to his gameplan whatsoever, Cybernetic is a zoning variation. What would 1+3 leaving the opponent next to you do? He WANTS that space, he WANTS the opponent to be pushed away from him so he can get back to throwing knives and keeping the opponent off of them. I mean what's he going to do after the 1+3 that's that scary? If you block low you cover everything he'll do except a throw. Point is making 1+3 end closer won't improve his rushdown, he won't have better mixups or better damage or even arguably better positioning since you'd rather be between dash range and full screen most of the time in this variation. Why do you think this would improve his design?

Do you not play Kano? What kind of Kano wouldn't see the beauty of this. Lol If you want him away he already has an option for it. A much better one. With this he can apply pressure to characters that he doesn't get very much damage against from afar. And yes I know my amount of games doesn't affect opinions but instead of trying to shoot down my opinion why not go to practice mode and see how beneficial this would be before making terrible assumptions about Kano's gameplay. If you don't know my skill level we can easily set up some matches so you can see for yourself. His design would be much better with this addition as it would increase his pressure midscreen, net more damage overall, etc etc as I explained in my first post.

 

[Kinetic Demise]

I love ending with it in the corner because it leaves you plus on block for more punishment. I usually follow up with a b312 to bounce that sucker off the wall.

Great! Now imagine that... But from anywhere on the screen.

 

[SaltShaker]

Why?

Because Cyber Kano has no real pressure. He has strong footsie tools and zoning that can excel in certain MU's only. Why would I want 1+3 placing people directly in front of me where he is weakest? For example-

If I'm fighting Outlaw Erron, Covert Ops Sonya, etc, other high tiered ridiculous pressure characters, 1+3 leaves me at +13 and with mental adv to make the next move. Anyone exp'd in the MU knows up close to simply block low against Cyber and wait for the poke into pressure opportunity or the armor for combo opportunity. At the current range, I can throw a knife and hit their movement, B1 a Jip attempt, Backdash and punish attacks, step back for more zoning, etc. I have control of those characters at an ideal range. If it left them "close to me" then what happens? I do some stupid B31 on block or a B13 and then have to deal with them pressuring me into 50/50's and plus frame setups into guessing for my life bar??? Nah, I end in 1+3 at times in MU's that it is very beneficial like an Erron MU.

So basically, making it end close up would make it an utter disaster and useless in some MU's because all you'll get is a few % of chip before some offensive powerhouse gets their "turn" of attack up close. Where as now it leaves some characters at a perfect distance for Cyber's strong vital footsie tools in some MU's.

 

[MsMiharo]

Because Cyber Kano has no real pressure. He has strong footsie tools and zoning that can excel in certain MU's only. Why would I want 1+3 placing people directly in front of me where he is weakest? For example-

If I'm fighting Outlaw Erron, Covert Ops Sonya, etc, other high tiered ridiculous pressure characters, 1+3 leaves me at +13 and with mental adv to make the next move. Anyone exp'd in the MU knows up close to simply block low against Cyber and wait for the poke into pressure opportunity or the armor for combo opportunity. At the current range, I can throw a knife and hit their movement, B1 a Jip attempt, Backdash and punish attacks, step back for more zoning, etc. I have control of those characters at an ideal range. If it left them "close to me" then what happens? I do some stupid B31 on block or a B13 and then have to deal with them pressuring me into 50/50's and plus frame setups into guessing for my life bar??? Nah, I end in 1+3 at times in MU's that it is very beneficial like an Erron MU.

So basically, making it end close up would make it an utter disaster and useless in some MU's because all you'll get is a few % of chip before some offensive powerhouse gets their "turn" of attack up close. Where as now it leaves some characters at a perfect distance for Cyber's strong vital footsie tools in some MU's.

I strongly disagree. As I said before you can just go for ball ender if you want them off of you. Make them work their way back in. If 1+3 left them next to you they have to guess grab or low. Plus you can hit confirm the low into either +1 on block or full combo punish. At the range they're left at atm they can jip your knife for a full combo punish or just avoid any run in follow up. Why leave Kano at his worst range (ie outside f4, inside unsafe knife territory)?

 

[Youphemism]

Do you not play Kano? What kind of Kano wouldn't see the beauty of this. Lol If you want him away he already has an option for it. A much better one. With this he can apply pressure to characters that he doesn't get very much damage against from afar. And yes I know my amount of games doesn't affect opinions but instead of trying to shoot down my opinion why not go to practice mode and see how beneficial this would be before making terrible assumptions about Kano's gameplay. If you don't know my skill level we can easily set up some matches so you can see for yourself. His design would be much better with this addition as it would increase his pressure midscreen, net more damage overall, etc etc as I explained in my first post.

The kind of Kano that gets that Cybernetic Kano has no substantial pressure and so putting the opponent right beside you is the last position you want them to be in. Dude I'm not making assumptions, I main the variation too. Stop assuming you know all about the character. Also what the hell is a mirror going to prove? Lol just stop. And what pressure? He gets maybe a blockstring, so maybe 5% chip max or something, or a throw. That's great and all but it doesn't really improve his rushdown options. As I said he's a zoner, he doesn't want you to be next to him. The better idea is what MsMiharo suggested which is being able to decide where 1+3 puts the opponent so you have better positioning for yourself depending on the matchup.

Although having looked again at where it puts you right now it is kind of an awkward position, and that's one of the reasons I don't use it, but having a restand that puts them full screen would be tight #Kreygasm. I think if we can choose a close, medium or far option it would make the restand a much more popular ender. I mean positioning and no wakeups to worry about? Godlike.

I strongly disagree. As I said before you can just go for ball ender if you want them off of you. Make them work their way back in. If 1+3 left them next to you they have to guess grab or low. Plus you can hit confirm the low into either +1 on block or full combo punish. At the range they're left at atm they can jip your knife for a full combo punish or just avoid any run in follow up. Why leave Kano at his worst range (ie outside f4, inside unsafe knife territory)?

Right but after his one blockstring or throw what pressure is he going to put on? He's not left in a great position after that. Cybernetic lacks a real up close game so why put him there? I just don't get where you're coming from with that is all. And actually if you time it right they can't jump over your knife so that's incorrect. And knife isn't unsafe from that distance so let's not pretend it's a horrible idea to throw it out from there lol. His worst range is not outside of F4 range, anywhere from poke/F4 range to full screen is where he (at least Cybernetic) wants to be.

 

[SaltShaker]

I strongly disagree. As I said before you can just go for ball ender if you want them off of you. Make them work their way back in. If 1+3 left them next to you they have to guess grab or low. Plus you can hit confirm the low into either +1 on block or full combo punish. At the range they're left at atm they can jip your knife for a full combo punish or just avoid any run in follow up. Why leave Kano at his worst range (ie outside f4, inside unsafe knife territory)?

In some MU's I prefer to leave them standing so they can't have options to WU and have to make a hard read or react late to my decision.

Also, your example goes both ways. What if an Erron jumps expecting a knife and they land right into a trip guard punish because I walked backwards? This is why I like it. I can make the read or apply a zoning/footsie tool which is great in some MU's. In the others I just Kano ball but 1+3 has its uses right now against some characters.

Where as putting them close isn't worth the risk to me. Grab for 12% or a couple of % of chip while being dead in Erron's face (for example). Now I have to worry about him armor'ing me with sand for a full combo, or after he blocks my B31 and my next follow up (because who doesn't block low here) now I'm directly in his face guessing 211 mixups and 50/50 starters with +7 sand rolls. Sounds horrendous to me.

I can think of a few MU's I use 1+3 to keep them standing but I can't imagine wanting anyone except QC directly in front of me like that.

 

[MsMiharo]

I'm not saying it's your go-to option, just saying it'd be more useful. Changing from your ball ender and going for a, pretty much, unescapable grab and extra 12% instead of leaving them where they can hit you with slides and other nonsense? I'd take that. Iirc b3 is 14 frames so they could technically armor out if they're frame perfect but other than that you get to at least make them hold your +1 allowing you to throw/b13 EX knives or what have you.

I'm not saying this is something that will replace ball as an ender but it'd be so nice to have the option to leave them full screen OR right next to you where you can try to close out the round or spends bunch of bar on chip or whatever. I'd take that over a range where they can armor through all your bullshit with their fast advancing special. You're already sacrificing damage to use 1+3 as an ender so why not let us get some pseudo pressure after it at least?

 

[Kinetic Demise]

The kind of Kano that gets that Cybernetic Kano has no substantial pressure and so putting the opponent right beside you is the last position you want them to be in. Dude I'm not making assumptions, I main the variation too. Stop assuming you know all about the character. Also what the hell is a mirror going to prove? Lol just stop. And what pressure? He gets maybe a blockstring, so maybe 5% chip max or something, or a throw. That's great and all but it doesn't really improve his rushdown options. As I said he's a zoner, he doesn't want you to be next to him. The better idea is what MsMiharo suggested which is being able to decide where 1+3 puts the opponent so you have better positioning for yourself depending on the matchup.

Although having looked again at where it puts you right now it is kind of an awkward position, and that's one of the reasons I don't use it, but having a restand that puts them full screen would be tight #Kreygasm. I think if we can choose a close, medium or far option it would make the restand a much more popular ender. I mean positioning and no wakeups to worry about? Godlike.

Right but after his one blockstring or throw what pressure is he going to put on? He's not left in a great position after that. Cybernetic lacks a real up close game so why put him there? I just don't get where you're coming from with that is all. And actually if you time it right they can't jump over your knife so that's incorrect. And knife isn't unsafe from that distance so let's not pretend it's a horrible idea to throw it out from there lol. His worst range is not outside of F4 range, anywhere from poke/F4 range to full screen is where he (at least Cybernetic) wants to be.

Ok buddy. I've heard all I needed to hear. I just can not take any Kano seriously who makes statements like that. I wanted to vs you to show you more of Kano's options and maybe see what you have to offer but if you would like to not play new people then I will have to accept it. Hopefully one day you will realize the potential of Cybernetic because clearly you are not seeing it. Idk who you are zoning so effectively but keep it up. Lol

 

[Youphemism]

Ok buddy. I've heard all I needed to hear. I just can not take any Kano seriously who makes statements like that. I wanted to vs you to show you more of Kano's options and maybe see what you have to offer but if you would like to not play new people then I will have to accept it. Hopefully one day you will realize the potential of Cybernetic because clearly you are not seeing it. Idk who you are zoning so effectively but keep it up. Lol

Makes statements like what? That he doesn't have substantial pressure? Please don't tell me you actually think that. Blockstring into ex knives is not pressure lol. If you want to show Kanos options go to a tournament since online doesn't mean shit. As for your "the potential of Cybernetic" crap clearly you don't understand that he's a zoner so I'll just wait for you to go offline

 

[pogse]

Why not have both hold forward to throw farther. I like what it is right now cause kano walk to footsie range which player can react to or wait and respond on opponents next move. Leaves both in neutral in which kano excels in some MUs.

Having it work like what it is when in the corner isn't that bad either. But the opponent can block + back > back > block i believe to not deal with jab/grab/other string mixup.

 

[MrInsaynne]

1+3 leaving them close to you would be a good thing imo. I dont know about any of you guys, but being at +13 gives you a lot to work with. The problem with it right now is that midscreen leaving them standing doesn't give too much. The reason why it's good is because there is no auto-timing for reversals when you restand them. So not only does the input have to be on point if they want to reversal, but they also will still have to eat a projectile or something too. The run up grab option isnt too good, as you're losing your frame advantage. Run up a little bit and D4 into projectile is alright. I'd prefer that they be left closer. In the corner if I restand them I get a free string into chip, or i can use the frame advantage for other little mix ups and baits. If they were to change where it leaves them midscreen (I think B1 range would be ideal, anything closer I dont think I would want too much), now I would have the option to pressure if I want, or I can end in Kano ball and continue zoning.

If they dont change it I really dont care, but I would see it as a helpful buff.

 

[MrInsaynne]

Makes statements like what? That he doesn't have substantial pressure? Please don't tell me you actually think that. Blockstring into ex knives is not pressure lol. If you want to show Kanos options go to a tournament since online doesn't mean shit. As for your "the potential of Cybernetic" crap clearly you don't understand that he's a zoner so I'll just wait for you to go offline

as for this, blockstring into EX knives is definitely pressure...and chip....and you're at frame advantage. Frame Advantage = Pressure opportunity. If they want to get out, they have to take a risk with armor and cant just poke back at you like that.

 

[Youphemism]

1+3 leaving them close to you would be a good thing imo. I dont know about any of you guys, but being at +13 gives you a lot to work with. The problem with it right now is that midscreen leaving them standing doesn't give too much. The reason why it's good is because there is no auto-timing for reversals when you restand them. So not only does the input have to be on point if they want to reversal, but they also will still have to eat a projectile or something too. The run up grab option isnt too good, as you're losing your frame advantage. Run up a little bit and D4 into projectile is alright. I'd prefer that they be left closer. In the corner if I restand them I get a free string into chip, or i can use the frame advantage for other little mix ups and baits. If they were to change where it leaves them midscreen (I think B1 range would be ideal, anything closer I dont think I would want too much), now I would have the option to pressure if I want, or I can end in Kano ball and continue zoning.

If they dont change it I really dont care, but I would see it as a helpful buff.

I'm a believer in the idea that it's not the amount of frame advantage something has that makes it good but the options you can use because of that advantage that make it good. Right now at +13 you get a guaranteed high/mid/throw but the low is backdashable which I wouldn't say is that great considering B31 is the only blockstring that leaves you plus meterlessly (besides standing 2 I guess). As for the auto-reversals thing it won't take someone 5 minutes in the lab to figure out when they recover and when they can reversal so I don't see that as a big deal right now. I think if they want to give the restand more use either give it more advantage so we can take advantage of the awkward space it leaves the opponent at or give us the ability to position the opponent when restanding them because although we're at advantage we don't have the best offensive options to take advantage of after that and putting them full screen doesn't put us at a disadvantage since it gives us the space we want. I would be more intent to apply pressure if his pressure game was better, maybe by making his ex knives more plus or something because he doesn't need an overhead, but right now I personally don't think his pressure game is strong enough for leaving them close to be that good. I can see the potential for chipping them out at the end or something though.

as for this, blockstring into EX knives is definitely pressure...and chip....and you're at frame advantage. Frame Advantage = Pressure opportunity. If they want to get out, they have to take a risk with armor and cant just poke back at you like that.

Yeah I didn't word that right, I meant it's not substantial pressure and by that I mean compared to the other pressure characters in the game his pressure isn't amazing. They can even backdash his pressure though too, not just armour, but his normals are good enough to follow the opponent I guess. It's alright but you kinda need the bar for combos.

 

[Zatoichi]

Been thinking about it and I really have no idea what can be done about F33. I know for sure that the "low profiling" that the low 3 gives to the opponent needs to be removed so choke and high knife can connect after F33 on hit. Same with b3.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Or just like don't use your shittiest string very much? I mean... NRS loves to put in strings that just seem worthless, Kano got away with only one; and it's still marginally useful at least.

 

[beatlejuice]

i dont want to have to smell my opponents breath to use my B1. if the opponent is blocking i literally have to be as close as possible. one step back and it whiffs. you say it doesnt need to be bigger because of the kano ball is a hard knockdown. so its a win more move cant help me if im losing...... i dont agree with that. all im asking is to slightly increase the hit box.

 

[Apex Kano]

My only question to you is why you would play commando when you can play cutthroat lmao.

Cause I love grapplers and Commando is the best Kano for my playstyle. Defense over offense

 

[DFC]

I know that I've been considered a really, really bad homeless man's Coach Steve, so I'll throw one suggestion that just crossed my mind.

Increase the damage of the 3 in B13, or decrease the scaling. Doesn't affect B1, and doesn't make other starters overbearingly strong, but would get his most used string some respectable damage in the corner. I mean, right now it looks like

B13 xx DB1 112 xx BF3EX B312 B1 32 xx 112 xx BF3 is at 39%, and most people don't seem to add that B1 in there. Maybe make it so B13 as a total hits 8%~ rather than 5.85%. This way Cyber can regularly hit the 40% in the corner. provided he spends one bar. It'd probably bump the midscreen BnB to about 36% as well.

I mean, it's probably a dumb Idea, but I'm just thinking about this stuff.

 

[Youphemism]

I know that I've been considered a really, really bad homeless man's Coach Steve, so I'll throw one suggestion that just crossed my mind.

Increase the damage of the 3 in B13, or decrease the scaling. Doesn't affect B1, and doesn't make other starters overbearingly strong, but would get his most used string some respectable damage in the corner. I mean, right now it looks like

B13 xx DB1 112 xx BF3EX B312 B1 32 xx 112 xx BF3 is at 39%, and most people don't seem to add that B1 in there. Maybe make it so B13 as a total hits 8%~ rather than 5.85%. This way Cyber can regularly hit the 40% in the corner. provided he spends one bar. It'd probably bump the midscreen BnB to about 36% as well.

I mean, it's probably a dumb Idea, but I'm just thinking about this stuff.

I use B31 in the corner to start combos tbh, and corner combos use B132+4MB not BF3EX.

 

[DFC]

I use B31 in the corner to start combos tbh, and corner combos use B132+4MB not BF3EX.

For example, B31 xx DB1 112 xx BF3EX B312 32 112 xx BF3 does 39% (I realized that the B1 adds no extra damage to metered combos, and 1% to meterless combos), and B31 xx DB1 B312 32 B132+4MB NJP JIP 112 xx BF3 does 39% as well. It really comes down to preference between the two combos to be honest.

 

[Derptile]

I'm fine(sort of) with the way Cybernetic deals damage, he builds meter fast enough to the point where he'll always have a bar for his combos. If I would change him it'd probably be

-Changing his projectile damage to around 7% normal and 12-14% Ex
Or
-Making B1 0 on block and recover much faster(close to vanilla) as well as make B1/B23 1+3 much safer to around -2 or 0 on block

He feels like a confused character that doesn't know if he should zone or pressure.

 

[DFC]

I'm fine(sort of) with the way Cybernetic deals damage, he builds meter fast enough to the point where he'll always have a bar for his combos. If I would change it'd probably be

-Changing his projectile damage to around 7% normal and 12-14% Ex
Or
-Making B1 0 on block and recover much faster as well as make B1/B23 1+3 much safer to around -2 or 0 on block

Projectile damage has been an issue, but I will always fight for more plus frames on EX before damage on knifes. B1 on block is pipedream tier. I miss the +2 days, but I've really accepted -2 and made the best of it.

Though I will say that god damn, 8% for EX Knives is a joke.

 

[Youphemism]

I'm fine(sort of) with the way Cybernetic deals damage, he builds meter fast enough to the point where he'll always have a bar for his combos. If I would change him it'd probably be

-Changing his projectile damage to around 7% normal and 12-14% Ex
Or
-Making B1 0 on block and recover much faster(close to vanilla) as well as make B1/B23 1+3 much safer to around -2 or 0 on block

He feels like a confused character that doesn't know if he should zone or pressure.

B1 doesn't need to be vanilla, he's not a rushdown character.

How is he supposed to be a pressure character? He was never designed that way, it's not confusing at all lmao. I think you're too focussed on vanilla B1 which was never supposed to be that way anyway.

 

[Derptile]

Projectile damage has been an issue, but I will always fight for more plus frames on EX before damage on knifes. B1 on block is pipedream tier. I miss the +2 days, but I've really accepted -2 and made the best of it.

Though I will say that god damn, 8% for EX Knives is a joke.

I think the main reason NRS wouldn't make his Ex knives +10 or so is that off a jump in you could do 112 Ex knives and just jail them for however many bars you have. It wouldn't be broke, but NRS doesn't like having funky looking stuff like that in game(FistiCage b121 nerfs)

And for as long as this game exists I will always complain about B1. They could've just fixed it so that it went from +2 to 0 or even -1 and since everyone has a 8 frame move it wouldn't have been a problem. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, that shit was made -2(not that big of a deal) and nuked in recovery(huge).

@Youphemism Well he sure as hell ain't a good zoning character I can tell you that. Also why would he have +5 knives if he wasn't a pressure character? Doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[DFC]

I think the main reason NRS wouldn't make his Ex knives +10 or so is that off a jump in you could do 112 Ex knives and just jail them for however many bars you have. It wouldn't be broke, but NRS doesn't like having funky looking stuff like that in game(FistiCage b121 nerfs)

And for as long as this game exists I will always complain about B1. They could've just fixed it so that it went from +2 to 0 or even -1 and since everyone has a 8 frame move it wouldn't have been a problem. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, that shit was made -2(not that big of a deal) and nuked in recovery(huge).

@Youphemism Well he sure as hell ain't a good zoning character I can tell you that. Also why would he have +5 knives if he wasn't a zoner? Doesn't make much sense to me.

As it stands, you can do 112 xx DF2EX 112 xx DF2EX before the first 1 whiffs, plus, the fact that 112 has a clear gap in it, so you'd basically have 10 frames to get a 9f B1 in there. It'd never be to the level of pre patch Lao/Shinnok.

And I do think that Cyber is a good zoning character, but against most of the played cast his zoning can be neutralized without too much effort. Which is why I really think they should give love to the up close game as well.