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General/Other - Kano Coach Steve's Kano Change List for Potential New Patch

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
A lot of the frame data in this game is wrong. This could be why people are debating what can punish what. Like mentioned earlier the frame data is either wrong or its a glitch. I think it's the frame data at fault honestly.
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
up ball should has priority over JIP and JIK, commando > 3,2, grab little bit safer
I'd settle for up ball being the same, with EX upball having armor until Kano starts to fall. 321+3 is fine. Not every move needs to be safe. Choke was needed to be safe, and it really saved Commando.
 
Some of these changes are just silly. I've played Kano since release and not once have I had any issue with 112. Why? I never use it outside of a punish. Ex Upball whiffing is an issue but his armor meta is already strong as is. Cybernetic uplaser would be nice to be fixed but what would it really change? Him just having a move thats not entirely useless? For cybernetic I'd like a buff to his offense. He already has no 50 50 but unlike other chars without 50 50s such as Kitana or Kung lao; Kano doesnt have absurd damage. To fix this, I'd recommend removing the pushback on his 1+3 ender so he can apply pressure mid screen, which can make his damage compete with others mentioned. Cutthroat is a variation I don't play that much of as it removes his great mid for a crap range overhead. Sure the string is good but you have to take risks just to use it. A nice easy buff for cutthroat would be for more range on his overhead or universally make his jab 6 frames so he can net big damage consistently off of his b1. Even a universal buff to make Kano Ball a true hard knockdown would help immensely. Commando buffs mentioned in op are reasonable. And the upball 6 frame FIX is needed more than anything. Good thread @MrInsaynne
 
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DFC

Cutthroat Truther
Some of these changes are just silly. I've played Kano since release and not once have I had any issue with 112. Why? I never use it outside of a punish. Ex Upball whiffing is an issue but his armor meta is already strong as is. Cybernetic uplaser would be nice to be fixed but what would it really change? Him just having a move thats not entirely useless? For cybernetic I'd like a buff to his offense. He already has no 50 50 but unlike other chars without 50 50s such as Kitana or Kung lao; Kano doesnt have absurd damage. To fix this, I'd recommend removing the pushback on his 1+3 ender so he can apply pressure mid screen, which can make his damage compete with others mentioned. Cutthroat is a variation I don't play that much of as it removes his great mid for a crap range overhead. Sure the string is good but you have to take risks just to use it. A nice easy buff for cutthroat would be for more range on his overhead or universally make his jab 6 frames so he can net big damage consistently off of his b1. Even a universal buff to make Kano Ball a true hard knockdown would help immensely. Commando buffs mentioned in op are reasonable. And the upball 6 frame FIX is needed more than anything. Good thread @MrInsaynne

1. It does NOT matter if it doesn't affect you. It's still highs and mids whiffing on crouch BLOCKING players.
2. Again, it doesn't matter. The change was supposed to give Kano a safe armored wakeup option. Now it only does so whenever specific conditions are met. conditions that should not have to be met.
3. It would change a lot, because he'd have his dedicated anti air do its job. It would become a pretty key part of his keepaway game.
4. Kano gets, on average 32-37% one bar. Would I love 35-40? Yeah, but it's hardly important. Plus, find a way to make his meterless offense hit low 30s without making other stuff too strong. It's not as easy as it sounds.
5. That's actually a fine suggestion. Maybe add some more plus frames or something too, I dunno.
6. The OH does need a range extension, but to be honest, I'd take EX buff cancels being easier than a 1 frame link over it. not a billion frame link, but like.. three. I'd settle for 2. 6f Jab? with the aforementioned consistency fixes? This is such a dreamy buff.

Everything after that i don't really have a comment on.
 
1. It does NOT matter if it doesn't affect you. It's still highs and mids whiffing on crouch BLOCKING players.
2. Again, it doesn't matter. The change was supposed to give Kano a safe armored wakeup option. Now it only does so whenever specific conditions are met. conditions that should not have to be met.
3. It would change a lot, because he'd have his dedicated anti air do its job. It would become a pretty key part of his keepaway game.
4. Kano gets, on average 32-37% one bar. Would I love 35-40? Yeah, but it's hardly important. Plus, find a way to make his meterless offense hit low 30s without making other stuff too strong. It's not as easy as it sounds.
5. That's actually a fine suggestion. Maybe add some more plus frames or something too, I dunno.
6. The OH does need a range extension, but to be honest, I'd take EX buff cancels being easier than a 1 frame link over it. not a billion frame link, but like.. three. I'd settle for 2. 6f Jab? with the aforementioned consistency fixes? This is such a dreamy buff.

Everything after that i don't really have a comment on.
1-3 Just not important man. He already wakesup well and has strong anti airs. 112 is not threatening even if with proposed buff. The laser doesn't net much damage. Sure these things would be nice, I am not disagreeing with that as those things SHOULD be that way, but if your gonna have nrs change something why not have it something that may actually help in some bad mus for him to start placing a bit higher. The changes I listed here are much better in comparison to any I have seen here. And it still wouldn't make him broken or have hundreds of people flocking to him like people did with Shinnok.
 

MrInsaynne

PG Coach Steve
Some of these changes are just silly. I've played Kano since release and not once have I had any issue with 112. Why? I never use it outside of a punish. Ex Upball whiffing is an issue but his armor meta is already strong as is. Cybernetic uplaser would be nice to be fixed but what would it really change? Him just having a move thats not entirely useless? For cybernetic I'd like a buff to his offense. He already has no 50 50 but unlike other chars without 50 50s such as Kitana or Kung lao; Kano doesnt have absurd damage. To fix this, I'd recommend removing the pushback on his 1+3 ender so he can apply pressure mid screen, which can make his damage compete with others mentioned. Cutthroat is a variation I don't play that much of as it removes his great mid for a crap range overhead. Sure the string is good but you have to take risks just to use it. A nice easy buff for cutthroat would be for more range on his overhead or universally make his jab 6 frames so he can net big damage consistently off of his b1. Even a universal buff to make Kano Ball a true hard knockdown would help immensely. Commando buffs mentioned in op are reasonable. And the upball 6 frame FIX is needed more than anything. Good thread @MrInsaynne
112 is a fix that i would like, would it change anything? Maybe, maybe not. It doesnt make sense that the entire string is crouchable by many characters although it's high mid mid, it's interruptable AND -2. This is pretty much saying that everything is wrong with this string.

Cutthroat overhead should have more range but again it's not too necessary because of his corner carry and hard knockdowns, (sure, you can roll after, but you can roll after almost every hard knockdown, it is what it is. mid screen you dont necessarily need to be just trying to go for 50/50 after 50/50. Just whiff punish whatever and take em to the corner and then go for your 50/50s, the drawback from this move is the range, but it is a hit-confirmable, special cancelable string that is 0 on block also and uninterruptable.

Pushback on 1+3 ender in commando isn't the problem, the problem (similar to both chokes) is the hit advantage. It's only +4. I would rather him have more hit advantage than be closer.

Cybernetic Up Laser: Useless special moves are something I dealt with in SF and marvel, and they're really stupid and should not exist. I'd rather the move not be there at all so that I dont get an accidental input and that move comes out. I just want the move to have some kind of purpose.

Kano does not need more damage. His tools allow him to really chip out and pick at your opponents life little by little with grabs and D4s and projectiles. By the time you get a clean hit, you have meter if necessary, and they'll have lost a decent amount of life already. If he gets more damage, cool. But it's unnecessary.

I've said many times and will continue saying, aside from glitches. I am perfectly OK with the way Kano is in all variations. I dont want them to give him something really stupid and overbuff him or change his playstyle in each variation.

I always look at the bad before I look at the good, I know what's wrong with the character, and it's more glitches in the system than the character archtype himself.

Kano players "dont place" because the ones that actually would do well and are really good dont travel to every major or local, which means they dont have enough experience. (I win my locals 95% of the time when I actually go, but I cant go often) and at the end of the day, the game is not even 4 months old yet. Give it time. Kano is not an easy character to master, that doesn't mean he isn't strong.
 

OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
I think these changes are reasonable. I'm not gunna lie some of you guys are asking for some really crazy stuff that is completely unnecessary. I've stated numerous times that I already think Kano is an A-Tier character. Giving him too much buffs rather than fixes to glitches will make him really stupid (more so than he already can be)

Universal:
-Stand 112 more consistent hit box to hit crouching and blocking opponents. Last hit 0 on block (interruptable)

-Up Ball (Normal and EX): Fix so that it can actually punish a move that is -6 on block. It can only punish moves that are -9 but it starts up in 6 frames. Based on the game engine itself, this should not be the case

-EX Up Ball: Second hit no longer whiffs after the first hit is blocked

-Jump 1 or 2 has a better downward hitbox
Commando:
-All parry glitches fixed

-Glitch where backwards command grab will whiff when opponent crouch blocks a D3 and then stand blocks Fixed. (I listed this one because I've encountered it numerous times. I know there are other little glitches with the command grabs but I don't know them too well. However they should be fixed as well)

Cybernetic:
Make up laser useful. Somehow..do something.

Cutthroat:
No changes. Giving it anything will make it too strong. Maybe just a few slight frame changes and he'll be fine.
Changing up laser is a no-purpose, "See, we did something!" buff. Won't change anything about cybernetic what-so-ever.
 

MrInsaynne

PG Coach Steve
Changing up laser is a no-purpose, "See, we did something!" buff. Won't change anything about cybernetic what-so-ever.
It depends on what they do to it. If they make it faster and have less recovery so that we can use it as an anti air and follow up, then you wont be saying what you just said. Will they do that? You never know. NRS has done much worse things than that.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
At least ex up laser should do..... Something. I want it to juggle because damn it IT LOOKS SO COOL. Also totally luxury buff but food for thought: combine 32 so that it restands with advantage im cyber and cutt, deals 10% in commando. A little damage boost for commando (wood chipper string) and some restand potential for the others.
 

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
More hit advantage on Choke, Strangle for Commando, and 1+3 ender for Cybernetic would be just great.
 

Zatoichi

Fabulous Goofball
Might as well post my own changes for Kano since I've posted them in every other thread regarding Kano changes.

Universal
  • 112 string whiff bug fixed
  • b13 now does 8% damage, up from 6%
Commando:
  • Choke +10 on hit, up from -5
  • Strangle +10 on hit, up from +5
  • Choke and Strangle no longer whiff after f33 on hit
  • Fixed damage on 32, it now does the same damage as it does in the other variations. 10% damage, up from 7% damage. This means 32 1+3 will now do 21% instead of 18%.
  • The command grabs no longer whiffing on certain combo strings and specials
Cutthroat:

  • Bloody Slice now has a hit of armor. It just makes sense.
  • 32 hit properties are now like Commando's, it won't knockdown the opponent on hit..
Cybernetic:
  • b23 does 10% damage, up from 8%
  • Eye Burst does 7% damage, up from 6%
  • Eye Blast does 10% damage, up from 9%
  • Multi Blades +10 on block
  • 32 hit properties are now like Commando's, it won't knockdown the opponent on hit.
  • Up laser has less start up and recovery frames
  • 1+3 enders have increased hit advantage.
These changes won't make Kano OP would they?
 

OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
It depends on what they do to it. If they make it faster and have less recovery so that we can use it as an anti air and follow up, then you wont be saying what you just said. Will they do that? You never know. NRS has done much worse things than that.
My point is, it's not going to be better than b1, no matter what they do to it unless they make it a 30% conversion option
 
112 is a fix that i would like, would it change anything? Maybe, maybe not. It doesnt make sense that the entire string is crouchable by many characters although it's high mid mid, it's interruptable AND -2. This is pretty much saying that everything is wrong with this string.

Cutthroat overhead should have more range but again it's not too necessary because of his corner carry and hard knockdowns, (sure, you can roll after, but you can roll after almost every hard knockdown, it is what it is. mid screen you dont necessarily need to be just trying to go for 50/50 after 50/50. Just whiff punish whatever and take em to the corner and then go for your 50/50s, the drawback from this move is the range, but it is a hit-confirmable, special cancelable string that is 0 on block also and uninterruptable.

Pushback on 1+3 ender in commando isn't the problem, the problem (similar to both chokes) is the hit advantage. It's only +4. I would rather him have more hit advantage than be closer.

Cybernetic Up Laser: Useless special moves are something I dealt with in SF and marvel, and they're really stupid and should not exist. I'd rather the move not be there at all so that I dont get an accidental input and that move comes out. I just want the move to have some kind of purpose.

Kano does not need more damage. His tools allow him to really chip out and pick at your opponents life little by little with grabs and D4s and projectiles. By the time you get a clean hit, you have meter if necessary, and they'll have lost a decent amount of life already. If he gets more damage, cool. But it's unnecessary.

I've said many times and will continue saying, aside from glitches. I am perfectly OK with the way Kano is in all variations. I dont want them to give him something really stupid and overbuff him or change his playstyle in each variation.

I always look at the bad before I look at the good, I know what's wrong with the character, and it's more glitches in the system than the character archtype himself.

Kano players "dont place" because the ones that actually would do well and are really good dont travel to every major or local, which means they dont have enough experience. (I win my locals 95% of the time when I actually go, but I cant go often) and at the end of the day, the game is not even 4 months old yet. Give it time. Kano is not an easy character to master, that doesn't mean he isn't strong.
Lol naw man you got me wrong. I meant 1+3 ender in Cybernetic. I've played probably 5000 matches with Kano in multiple mus, variations, etc. I truly believe that one change would be great for his design and keep him from being a dreaded 50 50 reliant character. D4s, grabs, and knife are great in most mus but just short of enough in most as well.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Lol naw man you got me wrong. I meant 1+3 ender in Cybernetic. I've played probably 5000 matches with Kano in multiple mus, variations, etc. I truly believe that one change would be great for his design and keep him from being a dreaded 50 50 reliant character. D4s, grabs, and knife are great in most mus but just short of enough in most as well.
Well first things first the amount of matches you play with a character make no difference to how right your opinion is because someone that's played more matches than all of the Kano community combined could still be shit. But secondly that change would make no difference to his gameplan whatsoever, Cybernetic is a zoning variation. What would 1+3 leaving the opponent next to you do? He WANTS that space, he WANTS the opponent to be pushed away from him so he can get back to throwing knives and keeping the opponent off of them. I mean what's he going to do after the 1+3 that's that scary? If you block low you cover everything he'll do except a throw. Point is making 1+3 end closer won't improve his rushdown, he won't have better mixups or better damage or even arguably better positioning since you'd rather be between dash range and full screen most of the time in this variation. Why do you think this would improve his design?
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Well first things first the amount of matches you play with a character make no difference to how right your opinion is because someone that's played more matches than all of the Kano community combined could still be shit. But secondly that change would make no difference to his gameplan whatsoever, Cybernetic is a zoning variation. What would 1+3 leaving the opponent next to you do? He WANTS that space, he WANTS the opponent to be pushed away from him so he can get back to throwing knives and keeping the opponent off of them. I mean what's he going to do after the 1+3 that's that scary? If you block low you cover everything he'll do except a throw. Point is making 1+3 end closer won't improve his rushdown, he won't have better mixups or better damage or even arguably better positioning since you'd rather be between dash range and full screen most of the time in this variation. Why do you think this would improve his design?
Being able to choose wether to send them full screen or keep them close and go for b13/throw would be pretty useful IMO
 

MrInsaynne

PG Coach Steve
Lol naw man you got me wrong. I meant 1+3 ender in Cybernetic. I've played probably 5000 matches with Kano in multiple mus, variations, etc. I truly believe that one change would be great for his design and keep him from being a dreaded 50 50 reliant character. D4s, grabs, and knife are great in most mus but just short of enough in most as well.
Well first things first the amount of matches you play with a character make no difference to how right your opinion is because someone that's played more matches than all of the Kano community combined could still be shit. But secondly that change would make no difference to his gameplan whatsoever, Cybernetic is a zoning variation. What would 1+3 leaving the opponent next to you do? He WANTS that space, he WANTS the opponent to be pushed away from him so he can get back to throwing knives and keeping the opponent off of them. I mean what's he going to do after the 1+3 that's that scary? If you block low you cover everything he'll do except a throw. Point is making 1+3 end closer won't improve his rushdown, he won't have better mixups or better damage or even arguably better positioning since you'd rather be between dash range and full screen most of the time in this variation. Why do you think this would improve his design?

I gotta disagree. It actually would be helpful. Because he's 13 on hit right now. So leaving them closer to actually try and them or go low or something would be nice because the next hit wouldn't be reversaled
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
A lot of the frame data in this game is wrong. This could be why people are debating what can punish what. Like mentioned earlier the frame data is either wrong or its a glitch. I think it's the frame data at fault honestly.
In truth, I'm surprised that everyone is going by the frame data presented by NRS. Hell, NRS didn't even provide the frames for MK9...accurate frame data is just important. Oh wait, no, Brady Games did and it was all horribly wrong.

Did you guys forget that they're typically pretty...inconsistent as developers and or/don't give a shit? I wouldn't be surprised if that 'data' was just scribbled on napkins and they just had some lowly office assistant just inputting those frames into a spreadsheet. Why on earth would anyone that cares about the game on a competitive level trust them to provide accurate data? I wouldn't even be surprised if the frames were different on Xbone, PS4, and PC (this one is the red headed stepchild though - - ONCE AGAIN. NRS actually outsources this shit out to an EVEN WORSE developer.)

The best bet is to once again just have the people here provide that data. Actually trying to contact the developers and say, 'Hey, look. You screwed up. Fix this!' is about comparable with shitting in one hand and wishing in the other hand. One of them will fill up sooner and it's not the one that you want.

TL;DR I have no faith in NRS. Never have. It'd be great if there was SOMEONE that we could compile this data to and have them actually give a shit and fix it but uh...yeah...see above. I'm just fucking tired of their games being in the beta state and their perpetual fuck ups. I'll go play DayZ or Rust or some other early access perpetual alpha shit if I want to deal with this. No point even playing their damn games until they've actually finalized it (and then abandon it forever.) Fuck. Someone contact me by carrier pigeon or something once the game is FINALIZED. I learned my damn lesson with MK9.
 
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Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Being able to choose wether to send them full screen or keep them close and go for b13/throw would be pretty useful IMO
Being able to choose would be interesting, that actually hasn't been brought up but it's an interesting thought.
I gotta disagree. It actually would be helpful. Because he's 13 on hit right now. So leaving them closer to actually try and them or go low or something would be nice because the next hit wouldn't be reversaled
What do you mean it wouldn't be reversaled?
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Well first things first the amount of matches you play with a character make no difference to how right your opinion is because someone that's played more matches than all of the Kano community combined could still be shit. But secondly that change would make no difference to his gameplan whatsoever, Cybernetic is a zoning variation. What would 1+3 leaving the opponent next to you do? He WANTS that space, he WANTS the opponent to be pushed away from him so he can get back to throwing knives and keeping the opponent off of them. I mean what's he going to do after the 1+3 that's that scary? If you block low you cover everything he'll do except a throw. Point is making 1+3 end closer won't improve his rushdown, he won't have better mixups or better damage or even arguably better positioning since you'd rather be between dash range and full screen most of the time in this variation. Why do you think this would improve his design?
Yea I agree with this. I actually lije where it positions the person after a 1+3.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
I love ending with it in the corner because it leaves you plus on block for more punishment. I usually follow up with a b312 to bounce that sucker off the wall.
No I meant salt cause they were saying they like where it positions you which I assumed meant mid screen.