General/Other - Liu Kang What's Liu Kang missing to be top tier?

[STRYKIE]

Har har, big talk coming from a guy who personally told me it was -2

Also I'd probably give scorpion back his old 214/FBRCs, seeing that F44 is +10 lmao like wtf.

I never said anything about it apart from all I knew is that it was safe and I needed more time to test the lesser known strings. Alas, look what I dug up when I did.

It's a lost cause, NRS doesn't rescind nerfs. Besides, now that it's gone, it has brought attention to Scorpion's other issues, bringing back the old blockstring won't make them go away suddenly.

True but hellfire is still a decent variation. He still retains mixups and great mobility. If Liu loses his FB run cancels what does he have?

By mixups and mobility, you mean his fuckboi 25 frame overhead and his unsafe teleport? Is Raiden's superman a case for great mobility now?

I'm not saying to get rid of the FBRCs, they will most likely still remain advantage on block, just not enough to jail for a free bar of meter and over 10% chip. The ball will still be in Liu's court, if not even more so if the opponent is compelled to spend meter or stamina attempting to get out.

Fair point, but I really think it's more a point in favor of my argument.

Well if it makes you feel better about it, I did say they should also look at possibly adding more frames to Dragon's Fire's fireball cancel to prevent some of these blockstrings rather than decreasing the advantage on every single string.

 

[Derptile]

I never said anything about it apart from all I knew is that it was safe and I needed more time to test the lesser known strings. Alas, look what I dug up when I did.

It's a lost cause, NRS doesn't rescind nerfs. Besides, now that it's gone, it has brought attention to Scorpion's other issues, bringing back the old blockstring won't make them go away suddenly.


By mixups and mobility, you mean his fuckboi 25 frame overhead and his unsafe teleport? Is Raiden's superman a case for great mobility now?

I'm not saying to get rid of the FBRCs, they will most likely still remain advantage on block, just not enough to jail for a free bar of meter and over 10% chip. The ball will still be in Liu's court, if not even more so if the opponent is compelled to spend meter or stamina attempting to get out.

Nah cuz, Slips stream chat and you said it was -2, don't front with me boi. But it's whatever lol, you're better going off for F44 FBRCs against the majority of cast's wakeups if you know how to time it correctly which really isn't that hard. This character literally has a Grand Canyon of dirt waiting to be found.

And I wouldn't count out scorp buffs, they did nerf Flame in one week and and Evo just passed. I think they'll be somewhat kind to him.

 

[TotallyNotKotalKahn]

I think the buff Liu really needs are like 5 hidden brutalities.

 

[WITNESS]

I don't understand what is so hard for people just to take 10% chip, do you really want an option to get out of f21 pressure and risk getting full combo punish. 10% chip or risk 30%+ punish. People don't like to block it seems, they like to press a lot of buttons.

 

[Lone]

I'm just thinking of Scorpion and D'Vorah as far as nerfs go, sure we don't have access to the ridiculous 50/50s(let's stop with the whole "no one gets hit by Hanzo's overhead." I don't care how slow it is, we see it land in tournament or casuals all the time. Like when Slips streams his STL crew playing....) but still.

It's the idea I think, people do not want to have to block for that long, etc. and maybe NRS deems stuff above +10-14 too much? I don't know.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Also I think Dualist might be as good as flame fist(probably not but he has a decent chance), the Dualist players are really putting life into this character that most people(including me) thought was dead from the start. Or I could just be potato and be up-playing like an idiot.

I have these moments where I feel Dualist can be viable and is better than I thought...then inevitably, that changes when I fight someone who is really good.

I'm on the Dualist hype train right now. I'm playing this game for pure fun now and I hate Tanya so back to dualist it is. I have some nasty character specific setups I'm working on.

 

[ando1184]

I don't understand what is so hard for people just to take 10% chip, do you really want an option to get out of f21 pressure and risk getting full combo punish. 10% chip or risk 30%+ punish. People don't like to block it seems, they like to press a lot of buttons.

It's not just 10%, it's actually around 18% while building a bar and a half. He then can do b12, which stuffs most armor attempts and interrupts anything slower than 7 frames. If that's not bad enough, after the b12 he cancels into MB flying kick and get +2 again and by this time his stamina has completely recharged so he gets to do this all over again. That's why everyone is speakin up about this and imo, it's warranted.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

It's not just 10%, it's actually around 18% while building a bar and a half. He then can do b12, which stuffs most armor attempts and interrupts anything slower than 7 frames. If that's not bad enough, after the b12 he cancels into MB flying kick and get +2 again and by this time his stamina has completely recharged so he gets to do this all over again. That's why everyone is speakin up about this and imo, it's warranted.

I keep hearing about this 18% chip but i'm not seeing it anywhere.

 

[GAV]

The only thing Liu Kang is missing is the same thing every character is missing to be top tier - and that's a Predator nerf - since Predator is the only top tier right now.

 

[WITNESS]

It's not just 10%, it's actually around 18% while building a bar and a half. He then can do b12, which stuffs most armor attempts and interrupts anything slower than 7 frames. If that's not bad enough, after the b12 he cancels into MB flying kick and get +2 again and by this time his stamina has completely recharged so he gets to do this all over again. That's why everyone is speakin up about this and imo, it's warranted.

this is the problem no one is blocking low, a liu kang player shouldn't be able to hit you with flying kick unless your blocking high, and +2 means nothing

 

[WITNESS]

I keep hearing about this 18% chip but i'm not seeing it anywhere.

i guess they are getting hit by mb bicycle kick during block string, ppl dont know how to duck

 

[ando1184]

this is the problem no one is blocking low, a liu kang player shouldn't be able to hit you with flying kick unless your blocking high, and +2 means nothing

Even blocking low isn't the answer. If the LK player times the EX correctly you will still be in blockstun while crouching. He won't go flying over your head unless he EX's early.

 

[9_Lives]

I'm not trying to say one is better than the other. I'm just sharing my opinions for why I like to play DF Kang more than FF Kang. I have no resume, but my time in the lab and on here has mostly validated my facts (minus my mistranslations assuming there are some).

I play DF Kang.

I like to use f213~fbrc~f213~fbrc~f213~flying kick meter burn. It's about 7% of chip damage, it builds back more meter than you started with and it's more reliable than Kung Lao's ex hat spin shenanigans as it hits all characters while they are ducking, even Cassie, which gives it a big one up over 11212. If they choose not to block f213 and I am a jedi, then I can cancel into bicycle kicks and run in for an uppercut for 25%. Sometimes I will end my combos short with the ex grab to tack on that extra chip as I build that meter back shortly thereafter. Or maybe bicycle kick them after a standing string for the guaranteed f213 to start it all over. But the whole thing is guaranteed when executed properly. No backdashing in the middle, no surprise armor reversal, no ducking out of the fourth punch in the block string. There is only blocking, not blocking or breaking. Zoning was significantly improved by making it so he can duck projectiles with his low fireball. And run cancel shenanigans can bait jump ins for free uppercuts.

I also play a little FF Kang, but not as well.

As far as I can tell he can do everything the DF can with meter, but that's not an issue since he builds it back real quick, and his fists do more chip for sure. But his offense is a little too readable for my liking. I'm pretty sure if they block the exwp they can mb reversal through that last extra punch tacked on the end, in many cases for a full combo. If they backdash, it negates the parry (minus the meter building) and blows up the wp. From what I see the fear of mbwp leaves them with the choice to block, armor, or backdash and people I feel will learn to choose not to armor after a while. Not armoring or poking leaves you more room to chip, but it also puts the parry on blast. Them blocking forces them to eat chip, but if you both spend a bar in this circumstance and they combo at the end vs us chipping, I think they win out overall. I was goin balls deep on this variation before when it first got patched, but I found I prefer DF after they nerfed out the bug.

So I feel like the FF is a little higher risk, higher reward while the DF Kang is more rewarding for patient play (which in this game you simply cannot afford sometimes, so it's understandable why people are so against it.) I just think over time people will realize that there are safer reads to make to get out of FF pressure and it may hurt him overall. That being said, Kung Lao has a gap in 11212 and people still use it all the time and win. Sometimes things that seem really good on paper simply do not pan out when you test it against skilled players.

But what do I know? The only majors I've won are in my living room lol.

 

[9_Lives]

i guess they are getting hit by mb bicycle kick during block string, ppl dont know how to duck

Even blocking low isn't the answer. If the LK player times the EX correctly you will still be in blockstun while crouching. He won't go flying over your head unless he EX's early.

I actually dropped DF Kang for a while before learning to delay the mb on the flying kick for that exact reason lol.

 

[STRYKIE]

Nah cuz, Slips stream chat and you said it was -2, don't front with me boi. But it's whatever lol, you're better going off for F44 FBRCs against the majority of cast's wakeups if you know how to time it correctly which really isn't that hard. This character literally has a Grand Canyon of dirt waiting to be found.

And I wouldn't count out scorp buffs, they did nerf Flame in one week and and Evo just passed. I think they'll be somewhat kind to him.

I have some ideas, but none of them are particularly related to his FBRC.

I'm just thinking of Scorpion and D'Vorah as far as nerfs go, sure we don't have access to the ridiculous 50/50s(let's stop with the whole "no one gets hit by Hanzo's overhead." I don't care how slow it is, we see it land in tournament or casuals all the time. Like when Slips streams his STL crew playing....) but still.

It's the idea I think, people do not want to have to block for that long, etc. and maybe NRS deems stuff above +10-14 too much? I don't know.

Scorpion's overhead is used extremely sporadically in scenarios where people aren't really looking for it. If you can find me footage of a top player being hit by Scorpion's overhead within direct setplay, I will apologize and hold that. It's like saying Liu has a 50/50 between 113 and 11~FBRC~F4. (well actually, if the hitbox on 11 wasn't such a sack of shit, maybe that would actually work, who knows)

The block advantage is intentional and it is what NRS envisioned, I guess they just changed their minds and aren't happy about how they've come into play.

 

[Phosferrax]

I don't understand what is so hard for people just to take 10% chip, do you really want an option to get out of f21 pressure and risk getting full combo punish. 10% chip or risk 30%+ punish. People don't like to block it seems, they like to press a lot of buttons.

By this reasoning, Kung Lao shouldn't be comboing anyone ever out of his pressure.

It's not just the chip, but the meter building and the fact that even if he used meter to continue his pressure he's built more meter than when he started. Then you add in throws on top of that.

And +2 from mb flying kick doesn't mean anything? When b12 beats nearly everyone's pokes, backdashes and armour but it doesn't mean anything? Come on man.

 

[Zyphox]

He's not talking about the gap between EX WP into another special, EX WP itself is straight up interruptible on block by most characters before the last hit. In training mode, do EX WP on block on Cassie with her set to do reversal flipkick and you'll see what I mean.



For what it's worth, I thought vanilla Dualist was better than vanilla Flame Fist. It's just that Flame Fist got the necessary help to improve it's conversion arsenal and let the variation actually do it's job without being negative 1 million on everything. (although I still maintain EX SF should have the same recovery as the previous patch meterless SF, LIKE THE CURRENT PATCH NOTES FUCKING SAID).

Dualist hasn't received that kind of help for it's utility yet, although most Dualist enthusiasts seemingly would be satisfied if it gets the MB Flipkick option after BK from Dragon's Fire.

You act like I haven't tried that, you get interrupted between the last hit of wp and the ex wp back fist, but did you know that unless your Kung Lao or cassie you be parried for your attempt to interrupt? Try it in training mode bro, also low or airborne armor does the trick but have a counter too like ex db2 after ex wp

 

[SaSSolino]

please don't call for buffs because a liu kang made "only" top 7 at evo. liu kang is already good.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

By this reasoning, Kung Lao shouldn't be comboing anyone ever out of his pressure.

It's not just the chip, but the meter building and the fact that even if he used meter to continue his pressure he's built more meter than when he started. Then you add in throws on top of that.

And +2 from mb flying kick doesn't mean anything? When b12 beats nearly everyone's pokes, backdashes and armour but it doesn't mean anything? Come on man.

B12 doesn't beat out everyone's armor after a blocked mb flying. Everything else is correct tho.

 

[Phosferrax]

B12 doesn't beat out everyone's armor after a blocked mb flying. Everything else is correct tho.

I said it beats out NEARLY everyones armour.

 

[SaSSolino]

Armor breaking strings are dumb, can't people just block armor? Oh well...

 

[Derptile]

Armor breaking strings are dumb, can't people just block armor? Oh well...

He can break armor with B12 and F44 lol.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Armor breaking strings are dumb, can't people just block armor? Oh well...

Armor breaking strings are just another dimension to the game. I mean, considering all of the bullshit I have to deal with as a LK player i'd say it's completely fair.

 

[Phosferrax]

Imo he shouldn't be plus on armour breaking moves. He can just though out b12 after mb flying kick and it deals with pretty much everything and is plus on block.

 

[Derptile]

Imo he shouldn't be plus on armour breaking moves. He can just though out b12 after mb flying kick and it deals with pretty much everything and is plus on block.

I can live without B12 FBRC being +5, it can be - for all I care(should still combo on it). As long as they leave F44 FBRC reasonably plus then I'd be fine. In a couple of months most people will predominately be using that for armor breaking on wakeup(I hope so).

BTW which characters did you test for backdash after B12 FBRC? I know Kano and Sub-Zero can get out, so a fair amount of characters also could get out.