Match-Up Discussion - Summoner Dink's Proposed Quan Chi Post-EVO changes

[I GOT HANDS]

"Argue with logic, not by trying to win the popularity contest."

[Makes a post name dropping absolutely everyone to agree with him]

Got it



You guys are actually hilarious.

 

[PunkMafia83]

Interesting thread for an interesting character.

I really used to hate fighting quan. But now I have reaslized that once you corner the bold headed pimp he ain't so bad. In fact, I feel sorry for when he is pinned down.

I think as long as he can poke out he can compete properly.

Right now he either bodies or gets bodied depending on what happens in the early stages of the round. At least, that's what it feels like. Give him a poke buff.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

I don't know what else to do, so I guess I'm checking out of the argument.
I mean, this whole thread's about making a poke 1-3 frames faster.
Granted, I documented Liu Kang's block infinite in detail.

Either people missed the videos (understandable, there are a lot of posts in this thread) OR (and I'm afraid of this answer) these people saw my videos and were like "So what? Not a big deal."

And then we get people missing the point and some arguments non-sequitur and by now I'm half bald.

There's only so many times it can be rephrased.

Spoiler

Also, apparently I'm posting hentai. Great analysis.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Because you can't special cancel it into a safe, + on block, launching special move, right?

If you are talking about canceling into puddle you should just stop talking about Dvorah lol

 

[Rude]

Got it



You guys are actually hilarious.

Another false talking point.

You're trying to rewrite the narrative.

You were the one that started this by implying that the only people who agree are people who benefit.

To which i "name-dropped" people that agree that don't benefit.

If you don't want me to mention other people, don't imply that only Quan Chi players are agreeing with this.

You created the talking point.
I shot it down and in lieu of an actual response, you tried to change the narrative to one that suits you when it isn't factually true.

Speaking of logic and facts, go back and read what Legion666 has said in this thread. Or me.

All we've been doing is talking about the actual gameplay data.

However, since i now know you have no actual points to make and are only interested in shifting the narrative to make youself look better when you actually have nothing of value to say, i think we're done here.

 

[Rude]

If you are talking about canceling into puddle you should just stop talking about Dvorah lol

I'm well aware that you can armor the puddle. But you don't always have meter.

You can also cancel both the low and overhead into wasp grenade.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I'm well aware that you can armor the puddle. But you don't always have meter.

You can also cancel both the low and overhead into wasp grenade.

You dont have to armor, you just have to do any string/special that moves your character forward. F212 moves Quan enough IIRC.

Also F22 and b1 Wasp cancels can be poked out of, again even by quan.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Actually, if you paid attention, I've been shooting your points down left and right.

You said Quan's overhead can stop jumping.

I pointed out that actually, characters can jump THROUGH it.

It's very easy to dismiss a point that you have no argument for.

You argued that Quan's defense is fine and when i pointed out several characters, like Raiden or Boneshaper that do very similar things as Summoner, your only response was, "yeah well, they're broken, too!"

Which isn't an argument at all.

Also, a character or characters infinitely pressuring Quan Chi to death isn't just a bad match up. In a bad match up, you have options.

You have no options versus an infinitely loopable situation.

You mentioned Quan spending meter to stay safe and I pointed out several situations where any character can armor and negate the usefulness of spending meter.

Sky Drop is not an effective option because anything can hit him out of the move, even if he's absorbed a hit and is coming down from the air.

As for tournament players who agree, didn't Mr. Aquaman come in and agree with me? He did.

The problem is that you're willing tp disregard all of this simply to push your agenda and blatantly ignore the facts. In lieu of actual talking points, you try to craft a false narrative of events that paints you in a favorable light because if you didn't, everyone would see your ignorant, mis-informed, and transparent talking points for what they are:

Bullshit.

Dude.. no.
1) I didn't say his OH isn't jumpable, that's besides the point, it's a good footsie/anti-air/converter OH.
2) Yes! Stop using other characters that don't have the mixup game QC has as an example. Again, if we can be realistic with all the characters someday we'll get a balanced game.
3) I know sky drop is a bad special, I never said otherwise, he NEEDS drawbacks
4) I'm giving some valid arguments about Quan Chi's options, no one is disputing the fact that great offense should come with bad defense yet I'm getting these "brush-off" replies about other stuff emphasizing he needs a buff... I explained why a 6 or 7 frame (or any other buff) is a bad idea, if you prefer to guess how I perceive things rather than actually debating my arguments then I guess there's no further point discussing.

 

[Rude]

You dont have to armor, you just have to do any string/special that moves your character forward. F212 moves Quan enough IIRC.

Also F22 and b1 Wasp cancels can be poked out of, again even by quan.

Isn't the full f22 string safe? I don't know about the low.

I didn't know about f212. I used to just try to armor. Thanks for the info.

 

[Rude]

Dude.. no.
1) I didn't say his OH isn't jumpable, that's besides the point, it's a good footsie/anti-air/converter OH.
2) Yes! Stop using other characters that don't have the mixup game QC has as an example. Again, if we can be realistic with all the characters someday we'll get a balanced game.
3) I know sky drop is a bad special, I never said otherwise, he NEEDS drawbacks
4) I'm giving some valid arguments about Quan Chi's options, no one is disputing the fact that great offense should come with bad defense yet I'm getting these "brush-off" replies about other stuff emphasizing he needs a buff... I explained why a 6 or 7 frame (or any other buff) is a bad idea, if you prefer to guess how I perceive things rather than actually debating my arguments then I guess there's no further point discussing.

B2 isn't an anti air move. Characters can JUMP THROUGH IT. The fact that you read me saying this earlier and call it an anti air move is just....frustrating to deal with.

I literally addressed all of your arguments.

The fact that you don't think Jax or Raiden's mix up game is comparable to Quan's is very telling of your bias.

You explained why it was a bad idea. I explained why your explanation just doesn't work and why he needs a faster poke.

But you, like I Got Hands choose revisionist history when you're proven wrong.

You literally gloss over or blatantly ignore all of the things you either have no argument for or don't agree with. You then change the goalposts to suit your agenda and finally, when that doesn't work, you try creating a victim narrative as a last-ditch attempt to save face.

Yes. We are done here.

 

[Gustavness]

In case anyone reads this and thinks my opinion is worth anything..

There can be no debate about Sky Drop, it has always been broken. In fact, every character in the game (except for one) is immune to sky drop during their upwards jumping arc, regardless of position or the type of jump. Easy way to get a general idea of how that works is to do 1,2 and skydrop. it will always whiff, whether midscreen/corner, NJP etc etc. This occurs from about the midway point of the jump to the peak, so even on a correct read you will never hit your opponent. I have witnessed this cause Michaelangelo and others losses in tournaments. While fixing that would not solve his issue on wakeup, it shouldn't.

As for a faster poke, I agree it would be nice, but i'm not sure its necessary. I have not played against a liu kang or anyone else that can do a so called block infinite, but i'd like to if anyone wants to demonstrate to me. PSN tag is Gustavness, I'd like to see if there is really no escape. send me a friend invite and let me investigate.

There are also many things that people think are "traps" or "safe" options but can be punished by his 6F iNJP relatively easy. For example, D'vorah's shoulder rush string into puddle can be iNJP into 36% quite easily, and it is easy to see. In fact, i believe quan is the ONLY person in the game that can use his iNJP in this fashion, and I never see anyone use it. wakeup iNJP is very effective, you can ask @AoK Ryan how he feels about it

 

[NissanZaxima]

If I jumped into this thread in the middle of I would have thought the Quan Chi players were asking for an armored launcher that leads into 100% damage and a backdash that teleports you out of the corner to the other side of the screen. Jesus Christ.....

 

[Rude]

If I jumped into this thread in the middle of I would have thought the Quan Chi players were asking for an armored launcher that leads into 100% damage and a backdash that teleports you out of the corner to the other side of the screen. Jesus Christ.....

Ridiculous how hard people are fighting this, isn't it?

It's JUST a faster poke. It can ve unsafe. It can be less + on hit. Just something that lets us poke out.

 

[Hellbringer]

If y'all stop replying to igothands it would make this thread more easy to read. This guy starts endless discussions with walls of text in alot of threads. Stop feeding the trolls...

 

[legion666]

In case anyone reads this and thinks my opinion is worth anything..

There can be no debate about Sky Drop, it has always been broken. In fact, every character in the game (except for one) is immune to sky drop during their upwards jumping arc, regardless of position or the type of jump. Easy way to get a general idea of how that works is to do 1,2 and skydrop. it will always whiff, whether midscreen/corner, NJP etc etc. This occurs from about the midway point of the jump to the peak, so even on a correct read you will never hit your opponent. I have witnessed this cause Michaelangelo and others losses in tournaments. While fixing that would not solve his issue on wakeup, it shouldn't.

As for a faster poke, I agree it would be nice, but i'm not sure its necessary. I have not played against a liu kang or anyone else that can do a so called block infinite, but i'd like to if anyone wants to demonstrate to me. PSN tag is Gustavness, I'd like to see if there is really no escape. send me a friend invite and let me investigate.

There are also many things that people think are "traps" or "safe" options but can be punished by his 6F iNJP relatively easy. For example, D'vorah's shoulder rush string into puddle can be iNJP into 36% quite easily, and it is easy to see. In fact, i believe quan is the ONLY person in the game that can use his iNJP in this fashion, and I never see anyone use it. wakeup iNJP is very effective, you can ask @AoK Ryan how he feels about it

We have a video in this thread that demonstrates Liu's block infinite, I will ask my friend to give me notations to the Tanya's block infinite, he showed me this, I just don't remember her buttons. And you can find Qwark's thread about Kotal's block infinite on Quan.(where I by the way was trying to make an argument of being able to get out with iNJP)
Are you sure his iNJP is 6 frames total?!? I know it is a 5 frame move in the air, but it feels like in mkx it takes more than 1 frame to get airborne. Would be awesome if it was 6 indeed. I use it as a wake up a lot)

 

[Zoidberg747]

Isn't the full f22 string safe? I don't know about the low.

I didn't know about f212. I used to just try to armor. Thanks for the info.

Its -8, so against most characters yes. But if she tries to wasp cancel it you can either armor or poke.

No problem.

 

[Evil Canadian]

You Quan guys need to hitch your wagon to the Buff Kano movement, and perhaps you can have some leftover buff crumbs as a reward.

 

[Alright RyRy]

In case anyone reads this and thinks my opinion is worth anything..

There can be no debate about Sky Drop, it has always been broken. In fact, every character in the game (except for one) is immune to sky drop during their upwards jumping arc, regardless of position or the type of jump. Easy way to get a general idea of how that works is to do 1,2 and skydrop. it will always whiff, whether midscreen/corner, NJP etc etc. This occurs from about the midway point of the jump to the peak, so even on a correct read you will never hit your opponent. I have witnessed this cause Michaelangelo and others losses in tournaments. While fixing that would not solve his issue on wakeup, it shouldn't.

As for a faster poke, I agree it would be nice, but i'm not sure its necessary. I have not played against a liu kang or anyone else that can do a so called block infinite, but i'd like to if anyone wants to demonstrate to me. PSN tag is Gustavness, I'd like to see if there is really no escape. send me a friend invite and let me investigate.

There are also many things that people think are "traps" or "safe" options but can be punished by his 6F iNJP relatively easy. For example, D'vorah's shoulder rush string into puddle can be iNJP into 36% quite easily, and it is easy to see. In fact, i believe quan is the ONLY person in the game that can use his iNJP in this fashion, and I never see anyone use it. wakeup iNJP is very effective, you can ask @AoK Ryan how he feels about it

Fuck that NJP

 

[I GOT HANDS]

If y'all stop replying to igothands it would make this thread more easy to read. This guy starts endless discussions with walls of text in alot of threads. Stop feeding the trolls...

My last post was 2 sentences. Yet the response to it was 9 paragraphs. The irony is real.

You just salty as hell that I disagreed with you before. Keep it up.

 

[haketh]

I mean you can ask Dink, I'm the biggest "Quit whining and deal wth what we got" guy around, Quan getting a 6-8 frame D1 should happen so when he's cornered he at least has SOMETHING he can do about the pressure that is well infinite on Quan.

 

[Nuovo_Cabjoy]

B2 isn't an anti air move. Characters can JUMP THROUGH IT. .

I'm gonna stop you there man. If people are jumping through your b2's, that means you're playing at the wrong range. When I'm playing quan, I sit far enough away for his zoning to be a threat and for b2 to catch jump ins. It completely eliminates the opponents desire to jump in, in between his zoning, because of how good it is for swatting people out of the sky. If you're close enough for b2 to whiff, njp would be close enough to anti air, or even uppercut for that matter. Or a run under whiff punish.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

If you change his d3 from +15 on hit to +7, increase the startup to 6/7 frames that would eliminate the free mixup/vortex he gets after the poke as it is right now. That's a fair trade imo

This sounds fair to me as well, I can support that

 

[Rude]

I'm gonna stop you there man. If people are jumping through your b2's, that means you're playing at the wrong range. When I'm playing quan, I sit far enough away for his zoning to be a threat and for b2 to catch jump ins. It completely eliminates the opponents desire to jump in, in between his zoning, because of how good it is for swatting people out of the sky. If you're close enough for b2 to whiff, njp would be close enough to anti air, or even uppercut for that matter. Or a run under whiff punish.

I'm talking about using b2 at max range.

It can be jumped through. In fact, if used the move as soon as i see them go airborne, only to have them jump through it.

 

[Gustavness]

We have a video in this thread that demonstrates Liu's block infinite, I will ask my friend to give me notations to the Tanya's block infinite, he showed me this, I just don't remember her buttons.

I went and looked at the video, and duplicated what i saw

F213 FB Dash cancel into another F213 can be beaten with a standing 2. trades with 1, trades with iNJP, can trade with D+1. D+3 loses. Timing is stricter, you cant mash the buttons out but actually hit 2 when you're coming out of block stun

F213 FB Run cancel can be done 3 times before they're out of stamina and have to do something else. MB bicycle kick is -1 and while they are safe, they have nothing guaranteed after that

looks to me to be a poor mans pre-nerf scorpion. doesnt have the air game scorpion had, similar ground block pressure but not quite as good.

 

[Zoidberg747]

We have a video in this thread that demonstrates Liu's block infinite, I will ask my friend to give me notations to the Tanya's block infinite, he showed me this, I just don't remember her buttons. And you can find Qwark's thread about Kotal's block infinite on Quan.(where I by the way was trying to make an argument of being able to get out with iNJP)
Are you sure his iNJP is 6 frames total?!? I know it is a 5 frame move in the air, but it feels like in mkx it takes more than 1 frame to get airborne. Would be awesome if it was 6 indeed. I use it as a wake up a lot)

I highly doubt Tanya has an actual block infinite against him. One of my scenes best players plays Quan and I have labbed him extensively. She rapes him but nothing she has is a true block infinite, it just makes Quan take a huge risk to get out lol.

But if you prove me wrong that's cool with me

Hint: His best tool to get out of her pressure is iNJP