General/Other - Sonya Blade Sonya General Discussion Thread

[HugeMcBigLarge]

I have a potato quality video of me playing Dizzy at EVO. First match after pools was loser of DJT and Dizzy =( But I still think CO Sonya still has all the tools to compete. The more time I spend with her, the more dirt comes out and the more I realize I was completely under-utilizing a lot of her tools. Finding the strings that have holes in them through which you can parry is huge. Instead of eating a string, you get a 42% combo. I think she will have some bad match ups (kenshi, GM sub, vicious F/T, SF Sonya anyone that can safely zone her or just keep her out), but I think she'll be hanging out around top 10 for quite a while.

@Dedlock How can you not have a shout out for @YOMI MITYEAP 's hype Sonya vs Sonic Fox? I thought for sure he was going to take the first game off Fox and put him in to the counter-pick game.

 

[nleaguewitsatan]

Going to be posting my demo Sonya from Evo. I made it to the end of my pools but lost to a Kung lao

 

[Dedlock]

I have a potato quality video of me playing Dizzy at EVO. First match after pools was loser of DJT and Dizzy =( But I still think CO Sonya still has all the tools to compete. The more time I spend with her, the more dirt comes out and the more I realize I was completely under-utilizing a lot of her tools. Finding the strings that have holes in them through which you can parry is huge. Instead of eating a string, you get a 42% combo. I think she will have some bad match ups (kenshi, GM sub, vicious F/T, SF Sonya anyone that can safely zone her or just keep her out), but I think she'll be hanging out around top 10 for quite a while.

@Dedlock How can you not have a shout out for @YOMI MITYEAP 's hype Sonya vs Sonic Fox? I thought for sure he was going to take the first game off Fox and put him in to the counter-pick game.

My shout out "loud" happened when I saw it was Co Sonya as the mysterious character!and then sonicfox shattered all my hopes.

But MIT MS cancel 2, was something completey new and never occurred to me before. Also the D4 low dodge was interesting cause you can cancel into military straight after. Good stuff!

But Kitana is insane, I came across somebody replicating Fox's playstyle with her and I was floating in the air watching the damage counter reach 50% plus with one bar?
I'm sorry NRS went a little too far with her buffs, the damage she has is unbelievable. I mean come on!

 

[DaZengie]

My shout out "loud" happened when I saw it was Co Sonya as the mysterious character!and then sonicfox shattered all my hopes.

But MIT MS cancel 2, was something completey new and never occurred to me before. Also the D4 low dodge was interesting cause you can cancel into military straight after. Good stuff!

But Kitana is insane, I came across somebody replicating Fox's playstyle with her and I was floating in the air watching the damage counter reach 50% plus with one bar?
I'm sorry NRS went a little too far with her buffs, the damage she has is unbelievable. I mean come on!

I was the one yelling "let's go Sonya!" In the viewing hall lol. I was hyped. Going back to the matchup, noticed how MIT didn't use any dive kicks in the match? Dive kicks are risky against kitana. One fan juggle and you eat an easy 30+%. This match up is incredibly hard. The struggle is to get in. Not sure how I feel about CO in this matchup. SF is also difficult too since Kitana can reflect the homing missile. Demolition is hard too since you can't raw reload any time because the fan will hit you. You really have to play patiently and make some very good reads in order to win.

 

[Tony at Home]

I'm still on the fence about the usefulness of MS~2 cancels. After I did some testing, she is around -8 (which is actually safe, I had previously thought it was unsafe). So it does fulfill a function of making b14~MS hit-confirmable and safe.....

But I'm wondering, after a blocked b14, am I better of deciding to be safe but definitely not landing a mixup, OR be unsafe and have a pretty good chance at landing the mixup?

The military stance mixup is pretty nasty. A low, a grab, and an overhead. It's a 33/33/33. There's ALOT more nuance to it, but for the sake of argument, let's say this means Sonya has a 66% chance of hitting the opponent. That's a 33% chance she'll get punished...

But if Sonya's -8 against an opponent with a mixup game, is she really any more safe? If the opponent has a 50/50, then there's a good chance they can open you up once you're -8 and just standing there.

I'm over-simplifying it a bit, because there's things like backdashing and armor to take into account on both sides, I just want to throw the idea out there- that I don't really think opting to take another spin of the roulette wheel with military stance instead of safely canceling it is the "unsafe" option. At least I don't think she's in significantly more danger than if she just opted to be -8.

 

[Dedlock]

I used to have trouble against Kitana even before her buff, now its like she's god tier or something, I also noticed no dive kicks, but can you blame him, against pros the dive kick in its current form is a death sentence also if he gets cought in that Kitana air fan toss you'r e looking at 50% juggle ( trust me I did today) . I mean atleast before we could use it to move around now its strictly punishment for what a measly 2% extra damage?

 

[errormacro7]

I'm still on the fence about the usefulness of MS~2 cancels. After I did some testing, she is around -8 (which is actually safe, I had previously thought it was unsafe). So it does fulfill a function of making b14~MS hit-confirmable and safe.....

But I'm wondering, after a blocked b14, am I better of deciding to be safe but definitely not landing a mixup, OR be unsafe and have a pretty good chance at landing the mixup?

The military stance mixup is pretty nasty. A low, a grab, and an overhead. It's a 33/33/33. There's ALOT more nuance to it, but for the sake of argument, let's say this means Sonya has a 66% chance of hitting the opponent. That's a 33% chance she'll get punished...

But if Sonya's -8 against an opponent with a mixup game, is she really any more safe? If the opponent has a 50/50, then there's a good chance they can open you up once you're -8 and just standing there.

I'm over-simplifying it a bit, because there's things like backdashing and armor to take into account on both sides, I just want to throw the idea out there- that I don't really think opting to take another spin of the roulette wheel with military stance instead of safely canceling it is the "unsafe" option. At least I don't think she's in significantly more danger than if she just opted to be -8.

I think the usefulness of canceling the MS is that you can bait the opponent to armor through it and if it's an unsafe armored move, you can punish.

 

[Dedlock]

I'm still on the fence about the usefulness of MS~2 cancels. After I did some testing, she is around -8 (which is actually safe, I had previously thought it was unsafe). So it does fulfill a function of making b14~MS hit-confirmable and safe.....

But I'm wondering, after a blocked b14, am I better of deciding to be safe but definitely not landing a mixup, OR be unsafe and have a pretty good chance at landing the mixup?

The military stance mixup is pretty nasty. A low, a grab, and an overhead. It's a 33/33/33. There's ALOT more nuance to it, but for the sake of argument, let's say this means Sonya has a 66% chance of hitting the opponent. That's a 33% chance she'll get punished...

But if Sonya's -8 against an opponent with a mixup game, is she really any more safe? If the opponent has a 50/50, then there's a good chance they can open you up once you're -8 and just standing there.

I'm over-simplifying it a bit, because there's things like backdashing and armor to take into account on both sides, I just want to throw the idea out there- that I don't really think opting to take another spin of the roulette wheel with military stance instead of safely canceling it is the "unsafe" option. At least I don't think she's in significantly more danger than if she just opted to be -8.

it could also be -7 because I read somewhere that -1 is not counted, but the thing that impressed me is MIT was doing it point blank! and got away with it, I'm certianly going to be experimenting with this, because some times cancelling out MS safely and going for a quick back jump or bait out a punish and parry, maybe. its hard but i'm going to see how it works out.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

I am also very on the fence about the ms cancels. Instead of cancelling I just delay my option. There is deep mind games there. You need to delay just a little bit for the MS stance 1 to connect after a blocked string, so you can start delaying your MS options. This will make them stop trying to fuzzy guard low-OH because you can delay the low, hit them with a grab or anything. Once they start trying to armor out, you can use MS 4 to actually break armor becasue it double hits. They then start to expect the delay and you can just keep laying into them wiht the guessing game.

Very read heavy and guess intensive, but it's insanely in your favor. As un-safe as her options are, it really is a 33-33-33 they need to take, and guessing wrong means they get to guess again because you can normally get a jump-in off of the strings.

 

[Tony at Home]

After labbing it out, I think Covert Ops is the way to go against Ermac because parry at least gives her some options (risky as it may be) where she literally would have had zero options.

Fun fact, Ermac's d4 actually hits mid, so you can parry his d4.

But yeah, his d1 is a 6 framer, so he frame traps Sonya with it on his neutral strings. And he's got two strings that are pretty mcuh neutral on block, and can confirm into full combos. His d3 is slower though, and you can actually counter poke that on his neutral strings.

ALOT of Ermac's stuff crushes the living f* out of lows. Be careful of every doing a d3. His b3 will crush it and put you in the grinder.

Neutral game is pretty important here. He definitely doesn't have anything that is as good as b1 in terms of range, so playing a smart neutral is one way to keep him from getting his up close pressure game started.

Instant-jump-back divekick is also ok. But you have to do it too quickly to confirm. You are whiff punishing, but not really able to do it on reaction, so it's basically an unsafe option if you want to use it to punish a d3 followup to one of his strings. I like EX Parry because it gives Sonya at least some better damage for the risk.

 

[Speedsterr]

What do you guys think about the damage scaling after Sonyas X-ray?
Is it working as intended or are they gonna nerf it?

I wish they kept it. Every time I catch someone with an X-ray who has 70%ish health remaining the feeling that they are dead in case I don't drop it is so cool

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Only in Demolion with 3 grenades in the corner though. In CO she has no other launcher so Xray combo is not that big. In SF she can only launch the drone once. I'm fine with that damage

 

[Dedlock]

guys in Covert Ops, was F+4 always able to cancel into MS 4, I could have sworn it used to whiff before, but now its connecting? I never knew this, its a 17 frame start up but its safe and whiff proof compared to the shaky B+3,3,2. Also its a great to do after an Ex Parry 1 instead of the back jump dive kick.

I've started incorporating it into my post dive kick combos and also into pokes, I feel like its execution is much simpler especially with lag. it also solves alot of a will it or wont iB3,3,2 connect drama, damage is comparable to B3,3,2.

 

[Colares]

..

It's a guess between the low and the high grab. The cartwheel is reactable.

 

[Tony at Home]

It's a guess between the low and the high grab. The cartwheel is reactable.

Cartwheel hasn't been shown to be reactable. When people start blocking it consistently in tournaments, then we can call it reactable. But for now, it's not.

Keep in mind, she can throw out her carthweel at different times during the combo as well. Opponents aren't just seeing b14, blocking low, and looking for an overhead to come. They need to look for it after b1, and they need to look for it after b14.

Maybe it will become reactable as people adapt, but we can't say that when literally no one is consistently reacting to it.

 

[errormacro7]

How long did it take for you guys to get used to and master run cancels? Characters that have BNBs that require you to run farther, like Cassie after B12~flipkick or Subzero after 242, I can do it consistently, but when it comes to canceling the run almost immediately or doing it twice, I have some difficulty. For example, in CO, I do:
X-ray run 12 run 121~leg grab, or EX garrote parry 2 njp 12 run 121~leg grab.

As someone who had played MK9 intensively before, I find myself dashing a lot and dropping these combo. I either forget to press block to run or forget to release block.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

@errormacro7 It took a little while, but once the run cancels came, I started being able to cancel into some cool air2air shit and some other good conversion shit. It's just getting comfortable with the engine.... keep playing and it comes. I was super resistant to adjusting to that after playing injustice/mk9 for a long time, but once I got used to it, it feels pretty natural. Just keep at it.

@Tony at Home Love to see you on these forums this much, keep giving that sonya love! But agree, it's not 100% reactable.... Take a reaction speed test... I average ~400ms or less, which is like 30 frames or so. Regardless, I think even Sonic fox and his godlike reactions are probably going to get it like MAYBE 60% of the time. Plus with the threat of delay or with the other options, you can easily get in their heads and keep up pressure so they're guessing. Cartwheel is by no means free, even with my training partners who I've played over 1000 matches with, still catches em off guard.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

People should stop complaining about Kitana's damage. She had that damage since the first day of the game, NRS ONLY NERFED IT, THEY NEVER BUFFED HER DAMAGE. You only get hit by her 45% midscreen when you make terrible mistakes (MIT threw ring blast at very close range or REO forgot to block low)
And about Sonya CO, I have combos that do not require running:
[low/OH mixup] MS Cartwheel, walk forward F2, 2134 or 21U4 or 213 leg grab: very damaging, took a few attempts to get used to the F2 timing, after that it's very easy to do

 

[Dedlock]

How long did it take for you guys to get used to and master run cancels?

I don't really run cancel in Covert ops I find regular substitutes, the 4 or 5% increased damage is not really worth the risk of dropping the combo, factor in lag and other variables and it's more of a burden. For example sometimes I'd rather just ex parry 2/4 followed by an uppercut for a guaranteed 29% damage rather than a 34% high execution run cancel.

All my guaranteed bnb combos do not include run cancelling and damage ranges from 27-33% without using a bar, I normally run just to bridge the distance between me and my opponent, it normally scares the crap out of them when they see Sonya running towards them which usually leads to panic mistakes.

Also with every hit you put in there the more the damage scaling.

 

[Dedlock]

People should stop complaining about Kitana's damage. She had that damage since the first day of the game, NRS ONLY NERFED IT, THEY NEVER BUFFED HER DAMAGE. You only get hit by her 45% midscreen when you make terrible mistakes (MIT threw ring blast at very close range or REO forgot to block low)
And about Sonya CO, I have combos that do not require running:

One mistake should not equal losing a match, her damage will get nerfed I'm very sure of this, NRS did not really factor her one and a half pages of buffs properly. Oh and 45% is not the number I saw that number easily went above 53%, after being caught out of an air dive kick with those insipid air fan throws.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

One mistake should not equal losing a match, her damage will get nerfed I'm very sure of this, NRS did not really factor her one and a half pages of buffs properly. Oh and 45% is not the number I saw that number easily went above 53%, after being caught out of an air dive kick with those insipid air fan throws.

45% midsceen, 53% corner (max damage for 1 bar) automatically mean a round loss? Are you kidding me? THE QUESTION IS HOW THE HELL YOU GET HIT BY THAT. And what's your reason for Sonya's 75% corner xray combo in Demolition? And please look at Jax's, Quan's, Kotal Kahn, Cassie Cage damage lol. I'm done with you. And trust me they're not gonna nerf her damage again

 

[Dedlock]

And what's your reason for Sonya's 75% corner xray combo in Demolition? And please look at Jax's, Quan's, Kotal Kahn, Cassie Cage damage lol. I'm done with you. And trust me they're not gonna nerf her damage again

You said it yourself it's an "xray" that requires three bars and three stun grenades and everything else in between to execute in a live match.

I've looked at those and Quan Chi was nerfed recently, Jax and Cassie require alot of work to pull off,

kitana's is very advantageous and the air fan toss gives her alot of time, you're kidding me one bar equals eating an easy 55% corner damage and you're comparing that to Sonya's three bar three stun grenade xray combo?

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

I think nerfing Katana's dmg is definitely a knee jerk reaction... things are simply sonic fox tier because he is a god tier player. Back when everyone thought EB needed to be nerfed because he won every major... Have you seen anyone else play it like sonic does? Kitana has major trouble opening people up and once you get in on her fans, you just block the second hit low and she has nothing. You bully her on the ground, she has major trouble getting up, just trouble all around. Standard zoning match up.

Kitana needs the dmg just as she did in mk9 because she has such a hard time opening people up. It's a bad match up for us, as any zoner would be, but nothing oppressive. Sonya has 40+% 1 bar combos off parrys as well (kung lao, kitana, +more have ONLY high starters!!!!) so I think nothing is incredibly out of tune at present.

 

[Dedlock]

In an age where people go on to YouTube and copy paste the " optimal" play style, I'd say yes.

I've already had somebody do that 1 bar 55% corner combo on me with ease "online" with lag!,

Listen I make an effort to play differently with Sonya, I take more risks and as mentioned above I don't run cancel. But getting hit by a 55% punishment is too much, even 45% is too much, kitana's combo is either not scaling properly or it should have us fall to the ground faster after the 35% threshold.

Kitana has always had great zoning cabibilties, but now she's become ridiculous and her usage has sky rocketed post EVO.

 

[DaZengie]

In an age where people go on to YouTube and copy paste the " optimal" play style, I'd say yes.

I've already had somebody do that 1 bar 55% corner combo on me with ease "online" with lag!,

Listen I make an effort to play differently with Sonya, I take more risks and as mentioned above I don't run cancel. But getting hit by a 55% punishment is too much, even 45% is too much, kitana's combo is either not scaling properly or it should have us fall to the ground faster after the 35% threshold.

Kitana has always had great zoning cabibilties, but now she's become ridiculous and her usage has sky rocketed post EVO.

Kitana needs to spend 1 bar to achieve damage past 40%, which is fair because most characters can do that. Sonya can do 40+ with an ex leg grab ender in demolition with 3 grenades and close to 40 in CO off of a starting 50/50.

I think kitana's damage is fine. Once you get the matchup, the 45% combo is avoidable. It requires the ex fan toss. If the ex fan toss comes out raw you can block it. All other times, kitana is going to initiate the combo from a low or one of her bnb strings. Her overhead is reactable and doesn't combo.

If you're stuck in the corner with her then something went wrong midscreen that caused you to be in the corner. You should be pushing her towards the corner, not the other way around. You really have to play patiently against her. I feel like I'm playing street fighter instead against kitana. It's all about whiff punishing little things and avoiding her projectiles.