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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn buff idea

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Well then ... I'm wrong. What matchups do you think Kotal wins then? I think anyone with an armored launcher is hard to argue that Kotal wins.
I think he decimates any scorpion variation that isn't ninjutsu

thats about it

the best way to play this character is just react to shit with EX OSS while frustrating your opponent with the occasional sword mixup, he's too unsafe and has to commit too much to do anything else worthwhile. It's nice to have really good buttons but you're almost just as limited as your opponent when you have to treat them as 1 hit command normals because anything more gets you killed.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
I think he decimates any scorpion variation that isn't ninjutsu

thats about it

the best way to play this character is just react to shit with EX OSS while frustrating your opponent with the occasional sword mixup, he's too unsafe and has to commit too much to do anything else worthwhile. It's nice to have really good buttons but you're almost just as limited as your opponent when you have to treat them as 1 hit command normals because anything more gets you killed.
I can see it. I played MIT's scorpion back at Combo Breaker and was about even and I only really played the match once. I'll have to look at it more but I could see it being bad as he doesn't have an armored launcher and he has to risk doing an EX teleport to blow up sword cancels.

For now I'd say the matchup is even but I'll take your word for it.
 

dark55

Noob
@dark55, if you're using Pig's definition, then bottom 5 doesn't mean what it normally does. In most fighting games, being the lowest tier would indicate that the character is unviable at a competitive level, except as perhaps a counterpick (e.g. Infiltration's Hakan in SF4). If you're saying that bottom 5 can still compete, then what is the point of that grouping? Are you saying that the other 23 characters on the roster have better options? Also, are you saying that all characters in the bottom 5 are equal to each other?

@Pnut, I'm not saying that Kotal is viable because one player has had success with him, like Xian with Gen, or Scamby recently with team Resident Evil in UMvC 3. I'm saying he's viable because in multiple locals he's winning/placing top 3 and in majors he's getting top 32/16. Of course, any singular, skilled FG player can have success with a bad character, but when you see this many instances, the tools of the character are assisting the player, at least to some degree. Now, as I mentioned above to Dark, if your argument is that bottom 5 characters in MKX can still compete at a high level, unlike most fighting games, then fine. Though, as I also say, that would seem to invalidate the point of calling them bottom 5.

To help with this, as I'm not looking to flame anyone, just debate, why don't we list our bottom/hard to win with picks. For me, I'd say Goro and Jacqui. Previously, I'd also include Reptile, but with his recent buffs, he's looking much better. Same with Kitana and Kenshi, to an even greater degree. Characters like Ferra/Tor, Kano, Takeda, Liu Kang, and Mileena don't win for free, but they're definitely not bad. Predator isn't that great, but it's too early to say for sure. So, all in all, with the recent patch, I'd say most characters in MKX can compete, which is pretty cool.

And, lastly, for anyone saying that Kotal has gaps in his strings, yes, we know, and so do players who are taking this game seriously. Does this weaken Kotal? Absolutely. It means you can't just go ham. However, having the option to go low/overhead at any point is still very useful and many characters can only punish if they react in time and have meter on deck to do so. Does it suck to play against characters like Jax and Reptile, who can punish you every time they block a low/overhead sword? Of course. That's why you play differently against those characters, use a different variation, or even counterpick. Almost all top level players right now can play multiple characters. That's what it means to be the best. If you're thinking you can just play Kotal and be top of the pack, well, that's highly doubtful.
nope not saying any of that. im just pointing out simply that i didn't say kotal was trash. Would i say Kotal is viable right now? sure...would i say the same thing in 6 months? prolly not. You let kotal get away with shit ofc he is going to be viable. If you really look at the character model of Kotal it would be so good if his strings werent so damn punishable. Kotal is a bottom 5 character that has gimmicks to blow up people which is making him able to compete. Not to mention he is one of the only true footsie characters in the game so people r still confused on how to deal with that. Unless he gets buffs people are going to be dropping him soon or just getting mad they are getting beat all the time.
 

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
Also NEATHERREALM FIX THE GODDAMN BLOOD GOD BRUTALITY, IF YOU HAVE A MATCH GET TO THE LAST 30 SECONDS YOU ARE PLAYING BLOOD GOD WRONG.
/rant
I have some good news and some bad news:

1) The good news is that Blood God's "Totem This" brutality works WITHOUT having to wait until the last 30 seconds to end the round. (i.e. The "must be under 30 seconds left" requirement is NOT an actual requirement. The Brutality works just fine no matter when you end the round)

2) The bad news is that this has been the case since day 1, and as a result, you have been missing out on swag D2 explosion brutalities since mid April.

Enjoy :)
 

Jeffrey Wolf

YouTube: Jeffrey B Wolf
@Qwark28, I've gotten blown up by some Goros as well (I played Bum at Next Level for a good bit), but I believe that was lack of character knowledge more than anything else. Besides having the best risk-reward wake up in the game, Goro doesn't have much going for him. It's interesting you say that about Scorpion. Is that because he has no armored wake ups in any variation? Also, Ninjutsu?

@dark55, I have a better sense of what you mean now. I definitely agree that there are multiple holes in Kotal's arsenal, which some people don't know how to exploit. However, despite those problems, I think he still has many solid options, better than a good chunk of the cast, and so will remain viable in the long run. Time will tell though.

@Buiu, the JC match up really isn't bad. I played against Maxter and DJT, and the only reason I lost against DJT's JC was because it was before the Fisticuff nerf. I'm not saying I would have beaten DJT if he had switched to Lao or something, but JC really doesn't have too many options: stand block him on neutral and wait for the third hit low.
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
What Kotal needs is not armour.

Why is it that noone wants to give their characters time to evolve and a million users keep constantly asking for buffs?
Bc TYM has conditioned everyone to ask for buffs/nerfs instead of grinding it out. NRS will comply if the whines are loud enough.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
@Qwark28, I've gotten blown up by some Goros as well (I played Bum at Next Level for a good bit), but I believe that was lack of character knowledge more than anything else. Besides having the best risk-reward wake up in the game, Goro doesn't have much going for him. It's interesting you say that about Scorpion. Is that because he has no armored wake ups in any variation? Also, Ninjutsu?

@dark55, I have a better sense of what you mean now. I definitely agree that there are multiple holes in Kotal's arsenal, which some people don't know how to exploit. However, despite those problems, I think he still has many solid options, better than a good chunk of the cast, and so will remain viable in the long run. Time will tell though.

@Buiu, the JC match up really isn't bad. I played against Maxter and DJT, and the only reason I lost against DJT's JC was because it was before the Fisticuff nerf. I'm not saying I would have beaten DJT if he had switched to Lao or something, but JC really doesn't have too many options: stand block him on neutral and wait for the third hit low.
Then take it from soneone who doesn't lose because of matchup inexperience, Goro easily wins the matchup.

Scorpion doesn't have a vortex, doesn't have good mids, good pokes that don't guarantee anything and a 50-50 air teleport game that you punish for 47% damage.

You also anti air very close jumps e.g crossups.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Why do you think Goro wins easily?
Punchwalk, jumpkick, chest lunge, command grab, D1, ground pound. @Metzos can explain more in depth but here's how it goes.

Oki is always in his favor even if you knock him out.

F2 and any sword is punished by chest lunge which gives him a guaranteed ground pound if he wants.

Kotal does slightly more damage but Goro has some of the best corner carry in the game and can stuff any wakeup and still frametrap you.

Then you have to deal with command grabs, fast pokes etc.

Goro wins anywhere on the screen, even when you've knocked him down you must respect an almost completely riskless wakeup.
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
Thanks for the breakdown.

If you had to fight Goro with Kotal, which variation would you use?
I play both characters. You should use War God or risk getting mopped up really bad. I felt it was close to even or slightly in Goro's favor because of Kotal's godly ji1 and EX overhead sword pretty much being punch walk w/o the extra hit of armor, but I've learned to AA better with EX stomp and trip guard sweep. Still a pain, especially w/ no meter, but KK is like the only char in the game that Goro can actually zone out with some success so between that and blocked punch walks, the meter build is decent.

I hadn't thought about punishing all swords (and most strings) with chest lunge, probably becuase I usually tend to use Dragons Fangs over Kuatan Warrior. But Quark is right, that shuts down almost everything he can do.
 

Iced_Taz

Characters loyalist :)
Sun Ray should be buffed. I think Kotal should get damage boost when he stands in light.

Another idea is that sun ray should heal bigger amount of your health.
 

Crayraven

Mortal
I'm right just like I was right about wonder woman. Don't worry, people will see in 6 months. I'm not saying he's not viable, but it's hard to argue that he isn't bottom 5 and has very glaring problems.
I've always felt this way, I still love the character though.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Playing vs Goro is how I developed the philosophy that war god is a character that 90% of the time reacts with ex overhead to anything he can't whiff punish in time. He jumps, you ex OSS, he crosses you up, you ex oss, he throws a fireball or stomps as you're running towards him you ex oss etc.

Tons more I could write on the matchup, it's pretty bad and if you get one ex sword blocked you're screwed not because of the punish but because he now has a lot of options.
 

Evil Canadian

G O K U
Elder God
Ok Wargod def needs more active frames on OH and Low sword swings. I am ok with the gap from string to special but after learning you can also just backdash almost everything for free after blocking the string on top of that is a bit much.
 

Vilén

too smart to play MKX
Kahn needs to have the best zoning and 50/50s ever, plus safe armored launchers and a six frame d1.

Fair and balanced. If it's good enough for Quan players to request, it's good enough for Kotal.
 

Buiu

Woot
Kahn needs to have the best zoning and 50/50s ever, plus safe armored launchers and a six frame d1.

Fair and balanced. If it's good enough for Quan players to request, it's good enough for Kotal.

he already have 2 6f pokes
 

Generalbit

The blade of osh-tekk is stale.
Kotal could use some love, a nice costume would be a start! But maybe make it so that if a mace parry lands, the opponent is momentarily stunned? Or give him a sickle special in BG and SG. Why give him those weapons if he doesn't use them except for a silly parry? They are offense weapons, a projectile or an oh hit that restands if combo'd into. And when meter burned has armor and is a hard knockdown.