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Opinion on the what the current tiers look like

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
kung lao's satnding 1 is highly dependend on against which characters you are a playing and what jumping normals the opponent will use. It is not that reliable.
I was just pointing out that it has been and can be used as an anti-air, not if it's 100% reliable or not.
 
I was just pointing out that it has been and can be used as an anti-air, not if it's 100% reliable or not.
You were saying it in the context were we don't know how the game will develop and standing normal anti airs will definitely not be something were the anti air metagame will evolve to.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I was just pointing out that it has been and can be used as an anti-air, not if it's 100% reliable or not.
Im sorry but you are completely wrong on this one. Everyone has been jumping all over the place even during top 8s at majors. Since AAs are so situational most players know they can get away with jumpins a lot of the time. Not to mention crossover jumps are extremely hard to defend against unless you d2 them on a read.

Having a good AA in this game is super important. You can't downplay that fact.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Speaking of exaggerations, define this "good portion of the cast" that have "giant" hitboxes on their jump attacks. I mean I can think of Sonya, Kotal, Lao and Jin off the top of my head but who else? As was discussed by Tony At Home and Harold in one of Tony's threads people need to not worry so much about anti-airing and more on trip guarding/spacing themselves from jump attacks or even running under like I said depending on the attack. If the game doesn't have good anti-airs then we need to adapt to that, we just aren't fully used to our options yet since it's only 2 months into the game. Hell I've seen F0xy space himself and anti-air with standing 1 a bunch for a start even though Lao has spin, god knows how things will turn out later in the game's life as people learn to deal with things better. You don't see Sonic running around jumping, or DJT, that's for a reason.

Sorry you took my post literally but it's pretty obvious I'm not saying absolutely noone has ever jumped, does jump or will jump in MKX. What I meant is that you don't see as much jumping as, say, Injustice.
Bruh you can't downplay a good anti air in a game where people jump a lot by saying it's irrelevant because people don't jump.

Those characters, plus Scorpion, Sub, Slasher Jason, Cassie, Ermac, all have air attacks that often stuff anti airs. In Injustice there was a large space between characters at jump distance that couldn't be closed as quickly as they can in MKX, meaning that trip guarding was a better solution than it is in MKX because you didn't have to worry about runs into 50/50. One space solved all for most characters. Trip guarding its harder in this game period, so a character with a good anti air has a much easier time than one without it. Take JC and Liu as examples of this.

Foxy does standing 1 to people who jump over the hat but don't input a jump attack, which would chew up the standing 1.

DJT and Fox don't jump against eachother because Cage and Erron have average or below air normals and jump arcs, but both have very good anti airs. But you see DJT jump with Sub and Lao.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You were saying it in the context were we don't know how the game will develop and standing normal anti airs will definitely not be something were the anti air metagame will evolve to.
I meant more along the lines of trip guarding or running under jump attacks but I can see why you'd think I was referring to that.
Im sorry but you are completely wrong on this one. Everyone has been jumping all over the place even during top 8s at majors. Since AAs are so situational most players know they can get away with jumpins a lot of the time. Not to mention crossover jumps are extremely hard to defend against unless you d2 them on a read.

Having a good AA in this game is super important. You can't downplay that fact.
I'm not downplaying how important anti-airs are, I've already stated that I know anti-airs in general are mediocre and I know that myself from playing Shotgun Jacqui, but I just haven't noticed that much jumping in tournaments from characters that aren't Lao, Jin, Sonya or Kotal. I mean it could well be happening more than I realise and it's just not something I focus on but that's why I'm discussing this.
Bruh you can't downplay a good anti air in a game where people jump a lot by saying it's irrelevant because people don't jump.

Those characters, plus Scorpion, Sub, Slasher Jason, Cassie, Ermac, all have air attacks that often stuff anti airs. In Injustice there was a large space between characters at jump distance that couldn't be closed as quickly as they can in MKX, meaning that trip guarding was a better solution than it is in MKX because you didn't have to worry about runs into 50/50. One space solved all for most characters. Trip guarding its harder in this game period, so a character with a good anti air has a much easier time than one without it. Take JC and Liu as examples of this.

Foxy does standing 1 to people who jump over the hat but don't input a jump attack, which would chew up the standing 1.

DJT and Fox don't jump against eachother because Cage and Erron have average or below air normals and jump arcs, but both have very good anti airs. But you see DJT jump with Sub and Lao.
Eh? What good anti-air am I downplaying? Edit: If you mean Shinnok then I never said his anti-airs were shit, don't put words in my mouth.

Ermac? I agree with the rest but I've never had a problem with Ermacs. Even so that's 9/27, I mean call that "a good portion" if you want but it's not the majority of the cast...

Trip guarding is harder in this game? Really? I'm doing it more in this game than I did in Injustice considering there were characters like BG, Joker, Martian, Aquaman, Green Lantern, etc with relatively big jump attacks and I'm seeing it more in competition but I guess it just depends on the player. Take Liu and Johnny as examples of what? How it's harder to trip guard? I mean I don't know since I don't see them in tournament much but I'll take your word for it.

I didn't even say against each other, I meant in general. Yeah DJT will jump with Lao since Laos J2 is mental but you're proving my point with what you're saying, there's not much jumping with other characters.

In the end this has nothing to do with tier discussion or PPJs opinion which is the important topic here so it's not worth arguing over particulars (although that's kind of the point of the forum isn't it...oh well). We can agree to disagree.
 

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
that was 4 years ago and you guys bring it like it happened yesterday.

and nothing was questionable about being frustrated when SZ in MK9 was wrongfully nerfed several times (which literally 100% of the community agreed upon) while characters doing one touch kills stay in the game.

It was supposed to be all in good fun.
Oh trust me, it was fun. I laugh everytime I watch that camera shake.
My issue is more with the MKX Kitana stuff, not with the passion for SZ and MK9. Your upplaying of the princess isn't quite as funny, especially when she is at the business end of your own tier list
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
Great list overall. I agree with almost everything. I am surprised Jax isn't higher, but some people here pointed out a few flaws I was unaware of. Also, curious why people think Reptile is so low?

I do find it a bit ironic that that Kitana, while being bottom tier without a doubt, has favorable matches against some of the upper tiered characters. Kung Jin being the most brought up example, even though I think more Jin players should be looking into Ancestral. Then characters like Mileena or hell, even Goro give Kitana a lot of trouble. I think if she didn't fare well against some of these upper tiered characters, people would be saying she is D tier.

She needs help, obviously. Her zoning is easily the worst of all the "zoning" type characters. The threat of her zoning is moot once people start ducking fans and inching forward, something the entire cast can do. Mournful glaives hitting mid is nice, but the damage is terrible and leads to nothing. Air glaives are a joke and can be punished a good distance away.

Up close, Kitana is basically useless. She has no mix-ups, no pressure, no safe strings aside from 111 and b12 (both of which have terrible range), no safe quick pokes, float gimmicks that can be D2'ed once people start realizing it, and her only overhead is so slow and unsafe with crap damage that only leads to HKD. You can literally crouch block everything she does except for her x-ray, which she will never get to use because she has to blow meter on YOLO armored wakeups when people get in. You can shut her down completely by doing nothing but quick, safe strings and pokes because all her strings come out too slow and or are - on block. Her meterless damage output means nothing if she can't actually get it in outside of people making stupid mistakes.

I feel she needs buffs, but not to the extent some of the Kitana community thinks. I don't think f2 being an overhead is the answer. I don't think fans hitting mid is the answer either. Make D1 a good poke again like MK9 by making it 8 frames of startup and not -10 (seriously, why is this -10?) on block, make B2 faster so people have to respect it and not crouch block all day, and make some of her forward advancing strings like F112 or F22 safe on block. That's it.

She also needs some of her useless specials looked into. Players shouldn't be able to block successful parries. Reflect should at least be as good as Kenshi's by having faster startup. EX air glaive should have a reason to be used, because clearly there isn't one. Non-Royal Storm EX fan lift should have armor rather than deal, what, 3%? 5%? damage and screw up optimal followup combos.

Just my thoughts. Also I think a variation tier list would be more accurate in theory, but making one based on matchups when some are seldomly used (see Ancestral above) it would be almost impossible to do.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Summoner = Sorcerer = Warlock
how summoner is the same as warlock?

summoner's zoning is the best in the game, and so is his vortex. warlock has antizoning (that you really don't need if you have summoner's zoning) and a reversal. they aren't equal, summoner is overpowered man.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
how summoner is the same as warlock?

summoner's zoning is the best in the game, and so is his vortex. warlock has antizoning (that you really don't need if you have summoner's zoning) and a reversal. they aren't equal, summoner is overpowered man.
Summoner does not have the best zoning in the game, that's either Kenshi or Tanya.

Warlock has a great full screen resented with portal kick, decent wakeup, great anti-zoning etc. I'm not sure I'd rate it just as high as summoner overall, but it's still a very viable variation on it's own.
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Summoner does not have the best zoning in the game, that's either Kenshi or Tanya.

Warlock has a great full screen resented with portal kick, decent wakeup, great anti-zoning etc. I'm not sure I'd rate it just as high as summoner overall, but it's still a very viable variation on it's own.
warlock is good, not saying otherwise. summoner is broken as fuck. warlock doesn't even come close, and so doesn't sorcerer.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
S+ TIER

D'vorah: Has everything and much more. Swarm Queen f112 bugcancel is a guaranteed 50/50. Insane damage and footsies. Insane uppercut. Only real "weaknesses" are no true safe blockstrings in Venomous/Brood Mother, and her EX Ass is a pretty piss poor armored move/reversal/wakeup.
Swarm Queen > Brood Mother > Venomous
Eh... considering how SQ's blockstring doesn't really work against players that know what to do against it and being probably the single biggest thing that made her so strong, BM not really doing much, and Venomous still being good, I'd drop her down to somewhere in S tier(probably the top). Overall very solid early list though.
 

Bender

Product Manager. xBone tag: I3end3r.
In after the typical Liu Kang uplaying by people who don't play him. He's not that good of a character, DF is decent at best but it's still gimmick city, especially when you have characters like Jax, Scorpion, and D'vorah whose FBRCs are so much better in every way so there's no point in choosing him over those characters. Dualist and FF are just plain bad in this game and really shouldn't be looked into at all.
Pretty sure Hellfire is the only character with comparable FBC. Liu's FBC is a thousand times better than Jax's and I'm pretty sure the same hold true for devorah
 

Devin Thorn

chimp damage
Kano, Jax, Liu Kang, Johny Cage, Cassie Cage, Milleana, Kitana would be some of my top choices. If I can only pick one, then I'd pick Kano.
I agree with all of those except Cassie Cage but I may just be biased cuz I dislike that character
 

Bender

Product Manager. xBone tag: I3end3r.
We really need a definition of "honesty" if those characters are "honest"
It's hard to define "honest". I would say none of those characters are gimmicky, which puts them on the right track. All require pretty good understanding of footsies and spacing to do well. While some have a pseudo vortex (i.e. cassie nutpunch), it's nothing horrible that you can't get out of/ are terrified of all game. No half screen NJ punch. No overpowered teleports (Milleana is the only one and its not bad). Sure, there's some mixup there, but it's not like fighting sonia or EB where all of their best strings are crazy mixup. None of these characters can jump in all game long and get away with it (maybe kitana, but It's nothing to really worry about).

Basically, I think these characters require really good fundamentals to work with. Just my opinion, feel free to make your own list.

My least honest list would include: Scorpion, Grandmaster, Ermac, Tanya, Quan Chi, Shinnock.
 
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Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Speaking of exaggerations, define this "good portion of the cast" that have "giant" hitboxes on their jump attacks. I mean I can think of Sonya, Kotal, Lao and Jin off the top of my head but who else?
Ferra/Torr.

Theirs is the biggest.
 

haketh

Champion
Basically, I think these characters require really good fundamentals to work with. Just my opinion, feel free to make your own list.

My least honest list would include: Scorpion, Grandmaster, Ermac, Tanya, Quan Chi, Shinnock.
I wouldn't make a list because honesty in fighting games does not exist. You're either varying degrees of dishonest or you're bad.
 

Bender

Product Manager. xBone tag: I3end3r.
I wouldn't make a list because honesty in fighting games does not exist. You're either varying degrees of dishonest or you're bad.
Agree to disagree. I think characters can be good, but fairly honest. I think characters can be completely dishonest and mediocre or even bad (i.e. inferno scorpion comes to mind). Dishonest does not always = a good character.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
Oh yeah shit how could I forget that?!
Cause noone plays the duo :/
Ans i hear theyre fucking amazing
Ive only played 3 F/Ts, not counting rematches obviously.

But from what i hear they have so much potential. Which may be why theyre placed where they are. If more people played them i wonder where they would be.
 

Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
I seriously wonder about Ferra Torr. Ive never played really any F/Ts. Ive played more Kotal Kahns. But from what i know they have mix ups and good range.
Someones needs to break em