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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn buff idea

Wigy

There it is...
he's always had high damage, it only gives you more reward and slightly better frame advantage on the knockdowns

war god is not unpunishable, don't spread that misinformation.
Unless the ex one is done point blank its unpunishable from most characters. Watching combo breaker i saw barely anyone punishing it at all. The normal ones are pretty much just frame punishes cause pushback thats if ur character has a fast mid or teleport. The low hitting one has so much blockstun you're sitting for like an entire second and then not even cassies b1 punishes for me.

This is not me saying he needs nerfed this is me saying hes good and you's need to stop crying JUST after you got buffs that u need buffs
 
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Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
Unless the ex one is done point blank its unpunishable from most characters. Watching combo breaker i saw barely anyone punishing it at all. The normal ones are pretty much just frame punishes cause pushback thats if ur character has a fast mid or teleport. The low hitting one has so much blockstun you're sitting for like an entire second and then not even cassies b1 punishes for me.

This is not me saying he needs nerfed this is me saying hes good and you's need to stop crying JUST after you got buffs that u need buffs
When you play people that constantly punish, you will understand. Half the cast has reversal punishes and I'm sure more have actual combo punishes. Stop spreading misinformation, you do this constantly. And War God did not get any buffs, the air-grab was hardly anything good.
 

Wigy

There it is...
When you play people that constantly punish, you will understand. Half the cast has reversal punishes and I'm sure more have actual combo punishes. Stop spreading misinformation, you do this constantly. And War God did not get any buffs, the air-grab was hardly anything good.
Im not saying its not punishable. Sorry i worded badly, but its extremely tight especially from long range. Cause of the variation in hitstun as well. If you're character hasn't got a fast advancing special or normal you'll not punish and even then its not exactly consistent at all. Its one of the trickiest punishes for me

His EX Airgrab is not useless at all, certain characters can basically only whiff punish JIP's in this game cause they're so dominant. If you read a JIP and use AA grab its great and converts to high damage. Kotal is probably one of the only characters who can antiair himself consistently. I got my 6 frame cartwheel beat by kotals jump in 4 times in 2-3 games yesterday, thats supposed to be one of the best anti airs in the game.

Quit it with the downplaying. War god didn't get touched cause its fine and the rest JUST got buffed so let the game evolve before u go crying for more buffs
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
Im not saying its not punishable. Sorry i worded badly, but its extremely tight especially from long range. Cause of the variation in hitstun as well. If you're character hasn't got a fast advancing special or normal you'll not punish and even then its not exactly consistent at all. Its one of the trickiest punishes for me

His EX Airgrab is not useless at all, certain characters can basically only whiff punish JIP's in this game cause they're so dominant. If you read a JIP and use AA grab its great and converts to high damage. Kotal is probably one of the only characters who can antiair himself consistently. I got my 6 frame cartwheel beat by kotals jump in 4 times in 2-3 games yesterday, thats supposed to be one of the best anti airs in the game.

Quit it with the downplaying. War god didn't get touched cause its fine and the rest JUST got buffed so let the game evolve before u go crying for more buffs
Why would I "read a JIP" with a bar of meter and risk losing it when I can OS low profile both a JIP and JIK? Yeah and the JIP beats cartwheel because the hitbox of the punch outranges the hurtbox of kotal, you should spend a bar. He has good tools (j1, d4, ex OH smash), but in a game where every character has a plethora of good tools, he is lacking because he has no way to stay safe. The buffs to the rest were negligible and didn't really help the overall problems with the character. The obsidian totem and sun choke damage were good but he still has very glaring weaknesses in both of those variations. This "Kotal has 3 lifebars" nonsense needs to end considering he won't have it out all the time.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Why would I "read a JIP" with a bar of meter and risk losing it when I can OS low profile both a JIP and JIK? Yeah and the JIP beats cartwheel because the hitbox of the punch outranges the hurtbox of kotal, you should spend a bar. He has good tools (j1, d4, ex OH smash), but in a game where every character has a plethora of good tools, he is lacking because he has no way to stay safe. The buffs to the rest were negligible and didn't really help the overall problems with the character. The obsidian totem and sun choke damage were good but he still has very glaring weaknesses in both of those variations. This "Kotal has 3 lifebars" nonsense needs to end considering he won't have it out all the time.
What weakness do you think Sun god has?
 

Predannok

Kombatant
What weakness do you think Sun god has?
soul scorch is not worth losing the damage of the command grab ,3 whiffed AA grab give about the same amount of meter of lvl 3 sorch. Why use The meter to get some health when there's already The sun Beam?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
soul scorch is not worth losing the damage of the command grab ,3 whiffed AA grab give about the same amount of meter of lvl 3 sorch. Why use The meter to get some health when there's already The sun Beam?
That's not even an argument... how does this cause problems in matchups...
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
You asked for weaknesses and a useless variation special is a weakness.

But if u want matchups then anybody who can zone will give Sun God KK problems.
No, it's not a weakness, you haven't even listed any matchups in which that gives him trouble in, weaknesses are correlated to bad matchups.

Anyone who will zone is vague, like who? KK has no trouble getting in on 90% of the cast. Instead of wasting both our times you should list the exact matchups he has trouble in and what makes it so difficult beyond general statements.
 

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
The obsidian totem and sun choke damage were good but he still has very glaring weaknesses in both of those variations. This "Kotal has 3 lifebars" nonsense needs to end considering he won't have it out all the time.
Obviously, saying that Blood God has three life bars is a huge exaggeration, but the fact remains that safely getting totems on the screen is quite easy. So, while Blood God Kotal may not be playing with three life bars, he is taking 50% less damage for significantly large portions of the match.

And yeah, Blood God still has weaknesses. But, virtually every variation of every character in this game has some weaknesses. It's just that, some characters have more crippling weaknesses than others. I personally think the new Obsidian totem makes Blood God's most significant weakness (i.e. his lack of armor and resultant susceptibility to being rushed down) manageable, and as a result, I think he is viable.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
What weakness do you think Sun god has?
For starters b14 tick throw stinks. It can be option select armored/jump and is so negative that it can be punished by most armored moves or instant njp. His footsies are good but even more unsafe here then they are in wargod and there's no real mixup on them to keep your opponent guessing. B1 tickthrow is good but that's about it. He has a whatever wakeup in the fact that a lot of moves in this game are throw immune so you get blown up for making the right read.

The crux of the problem is that he's lacking mixups in a mixup heavy game. There's a reason why the best grappler in this game is Erron Black ... because he has ways to make you respect his 50/50 while also having a CG. They either need to give him more strings that you can tick throw off of or he needs some of those strings to be safe to fix his issues. You can't just buff Sun Choke and expect it to make a huge difference.
 

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
For starters b14 tick throw stinks. It can be option select armored/jump and is so negative that it can be punished by most armored moves or instant njp. His footsies are good but even more unsafe here then they are in wargod and there's no real mixup on them to keep your opponent guessing. B1 tickthrow is good but that's about it. He has a whatever wakeup in the fact that a lot of moves in this game are throw immune so you get blown up for making the right read.

IMO, tick throws should not be utilized as a major emphasis of Sun God's game, in the first place (Whereas, relentless and unstoppable Jason, for example, should both be using tick throws all the time). Sun Choke simply has too many recovery frames to make perpetually throwing tick throws out a safe strategy. Your opponent should be conditioned to block with F2, 114, B32, F1B2, etc. and then should be punished repeatedly for that decision with Sun Choke.

Also, I find that people tend to do very silly things to avoid Sun Choke, so I get a lot of full-combos off of raw F1B2s and F2s.

The crux of the problem is that he's lacking mixups in a mixup heavy game. There's a reason why the best grappler in this game is Erron Black ... because he has ways to make you respect his 50/50 while also having a CG. They either need to give him more strings that you can tick throw off of or he needs some of those strings to be safe to fix his issues. You can't just buff Sun Choke and expect it to make a huge difference.
While I agree that MKX is centered on mix-ups and 50/50s, I do believe Sun God has enough unique, individually tailored strengths to make him viable in the right hands. Basically, if you play Sun God or Blood God, you can't play like most of the cast . . . but, that doesn't mean you can't play.
 

DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
The problem I've been having with Sun God is that he has no overhead starter, no low ender, no mid string linkable low. Basically zero mixup potential against anyone with a clue.
 

DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
Sungod no mixup potential? Damn...
Would you be willing to play a few matches? I genuinely would like to learn Sun but I cant seem to find any good players or videos. Im sure Sun has mixups, I was just saying that for where im at in my Sun development I cant seem to figure them out.
 

Predannok

Kombatant
Would you be willing to play a few matches? I genuinely would like to learn Sun but I cant seem to find any good players or videos. Im sure Sun has mixups, I was just saying that for where im at in my Sun development I cant seem to figure them out.
his mixup Are throw or command grab cuz after 114 into whiffed AA grab ur +4 and they have to respect it.
U got tick throws to amke them fear blocking 1, d1, d3, d4, b1, b14 all of them tick throws but if the opponent didnt block ur throw will whiff and u eat a full combo.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Would you be willing to play a few matches? I genuinely would like to learn Sun but I cant seem to find any good players or videos. Im sure Sun has mixups, I was just saying that for where im at in my Sun development I cant seem to figure them out.
Sure dude. My GT is in my avatar.
 

DoctorSexual

XBL: DoctorSexual PSN: Osh-Tek
his mixup Are throw or command grab cuz after 114 into whiffed AA grab ur +4 and they have to respect it.
U got tick throws to amke them fear blocking 1, d1, d3, d4, b1, b14 all of them tick throws but if the opponent didnt block ur throw will whiff and u eat a full combo.
So is this where option selects come into play? I havent learned how to do those yet. Because yeah, for example nobody ever blocks the low kick in b14 which causes my grab to whiff. So do I have to option select the grab so that it only comes out if blocked?
 

Predannok

Kombatant
So is this where option selects come into play? I havent learned how to do those yet. Because yeah, for example nobody ever blocks the low kick in b14 which causes my grab to whiff. So do I have to option select the grab so that it only comes out if blocked?
Even though i despise OS this is one Helps out a character and yes u can try it. OS pretty easy :

 

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
U got tick throws to amke them fear blocking 1, d1, d3, d4, b1, b14 all of them tick throws but if the opponent didnt block ur throw will whiff and u eat a full combo.
Exactly, and this goes to my point earlier about tick throws not being a great tactic for Sun God. Sun Choke has too many recovery frames. Tick throws are much more suitable for characters with faster recovering command grabs, like Jason.
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
Exactly, and this goes to my point earlier about tick throws not being a great tactic for Sun God. Sun Choke has too many recovery frames. Tick throws are much more suitable for characters with faster recovering command grabs, like Jason.
That was kind of my point without explaining it. This game is about mixups and kotal's only mixup in sun god is super unsafe which is why i think he's bad. He can beat people but its extremely difficult. There's no matchup I would choose Sun God over War God.
 

Predannok

Kombatant
Exactly, and this goes to my point earlier about tick throws not being a great tactic for Sun God. Sun Choke has too many recovery frames. Tick throws are much more suitable for characters with faster recovering command grabs, like Jason.
But the thing is what else should SG be doing? 114 ~ AA grab the whole time?

Your opponent should be conditioned to block with F2, 114, B32, F1B2, etc. and then should be punished repeatedly for that decision with Sun Choke.
F2 may be safe for many characters but others can blow u op for it like Jax, cassie or raiden. b32 , f1b2. b122 all of these would be great if they weren't unsafe as fuck. A good Opponent won't respect it but blow u up for trying. All he get his f1 and b1,. No 50/50, No real armor cuz Alot of moves are throw immune, Useless parry unless Exed.

10f normals to punish doesn't help neither
 

Predannok

Kombatant
That was kind of my point without explaining it. This game is about mixups and kotal's only mixup in sun god is super unsafe which is why i think he's bad. He can beat people but its extremely difficult. There's no matchup I would choose Sun God over War God.
Exactly, its just another example of "why should i take this variation when the other one does everything better?".