Question - Kano KANO needs some buffs?

[SaltShaker]

When I said that part about "no way he loses to Raiden" I meant matchup wise not that he cannot lose a single game to Raiden. Even matchup

Ah ok I understand now. I thought you were saying there was "no way" the MU wasn't in Kano's favor lol. That's where the mixup came from.

That's a tough one. The character himself is incredibly strong which leads to some of the difficulty, but I don't think it's an unearthly MU. If I had to stick a number on it this early I'd call it 4-6, so we aren't too far apart on that MU.

 

[OG Mannimal]

Ah ok I understand now. I thought you were saying there was "no way" the MU wasn't in Kano's favor lol. That's where the mixup came from.

That's a tough one. The character himself is incredibly strong which leads to some of the difficulty, but I don't think it's an unearthly MU. If I had to stick a number on it this early I'd call it 4-6, so we aren't too far apart on that MU.

Yeah I mean it's still winnable either way.

Also, I just want to clarify that it's not that I don't think Kano would benefit from buffs, I just don't think he needs them to compete at a high level. I'd be happy if he did receive buffs, I just don't want to cry for them like so many other character forums are doing right now, especially so early in the game. (I'm not saying you're crying for them but there are definitely a few people that are)

 

[SaltShaker]

Yeah I mean it's still winnable either way.

Also, I just want to clarify that it's not that I don't think Kano would benefit from buffs, I just don't think he needs them to compete at a high level. I'd be happy if he did receive buffs, I just don't want to cry for them like so many other character forums are doing right now, especially so early in the game. (I'm not saying you're crying for them but there are definitely a few people that are)

Yea trust me I understand. I've been reading some of the other threads. -.- Only MU I can 100% say is just absurd is Hellfire Scorpion. No fun involved in that MU for me lol.

The only reason I haven't made a proper listing yet of the small things I think that he really does need patched, like say his Commando Command Grabs to not whiff randomly (they fixed Kotal's) or Cutthroat B1 to not have such a small hitbox that I can whiff in the corner with it (lol), is that I don't want a list of real issues with a couple of reasonably suggested buffs be lumped into "Buff my character to God Tier thread number 11".

The main reason where I think the debate started from a while back was when someone brought up how he fared against the Top 10, which was the initial spark. Then it became "it doesn't matter because he's a solid character who can handle them" vs "solid won't be enough against these guys" which lead us here. I'm somewhere in the middle leaning to the right.

I do think he needs a couple of things in the sense of "buffs" though, like a faster B2 in Cyber, not losing your EX Powerup when getting hit, or a better Choke in Commando, but more of the things I and some others are suggesting can be seen as needed adjustments moreso than buffs.

 

[Dean]

umm these posts have absolutely zero content.

Your random reply to my post is the definition of zero content. If you don't have anything to contribute maybe you should go fly a kite?

I was giving my opinion.

My reasoning is Kano's overall kit in comparison to other characters is weak.

Kano does not have tools that make a match in your favor on a consistent basis. You have to work really hard to keep up with several of these characters, some characters have way more counters to Kano's game then they should.

Kano's hitbox's are awful

Kano's strings are mostly unsafe

Kano's footsies are great but are still lacking against characters like Ermac or Cassie.

Kano's mixup game is really hard in comparison to half the cast in this game.

Kano has 1 overhead, in one variation. That overhead is not the best due to its hitbox. Hell its not even an average overhead.

Kano's wakeup game is OK I guess but once they read your wakeup ball, things get even harder than it already was.

Kano is a good zoning character, except, he isn't a great zoning character when you have other characters like Kenshi who is viewed as a zoning character, then gets buff after buff on top of it to make him viable. Kenshi now has the tools to zone, do damage, and punish opponents hard when they do find a way in. Kano's game doesn't have very good for that.

I could keep going but I won't because I'm sure you think Kano is perfect and needs nothing from nobody.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Kano's strings are NOT mostly unsafe lol. Maybe in CT I guess? I'm pretty unfamilar with the data on those variation specific strings, but over here in commando land all my strings are safe brother.

edit: and a real B1 which has like the sexiest hitbox in the game LOL

that said he could probably use a smidge of love in a few areas we all seem to agree on. Really the most kinda glaring issue is the god awful hitbox on CT B1 lol

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm Australian and Kano is my mate for sure, but for your guys sake I hope he gets nerfed next patch, if it happens I will laugh, and will once again be a believer in karma

this community is the epitome of the things that I hate about TYM. I can understand Kitana players asking for buffs, I can even understand Reptile players asking for it, but Kano?! Seriously?!!

I love how in your "completely impartial" opinion, the only people allowed to have any authority on the matter should be the people with the most reason to downplay, lie, misdirect conversation, and blatantly ignore stronger reasoning concerning the matter.... who then proceed to do exactly that. Lol. Why is the entire rest of the communities opinions here worthless? I have no reason or bias to say your character is any weaker than any of the other ones, and I'd love to see a balanced game so if he was below the rest, buffs would definitely be in order.

However, WE ALL KNOW that is not the case what so ever. Salt Shaker, keep back-pedaling, if I have to go back a couple of pages and quote the posts of you saying Kano is at the middle of the cast and at a fine spot right now, and that the only reason you want buffs is for a meta 3-5 patches away from now where you predict he will be low tier, I will. This argument is so ridiculously stupid and short-sighted all I'm reading is "NRS, turn on easy mode for my multiplayer experience please!"

 

[ando1184]

At this moment I don't think he needs buffs. Having an unblockable untechable command grab off of safe options means that you can just walk straight ahead into the enemy and block string them into guaranteed damage.

Ok since I've seen some comments about how good commando is "as is", I decided to do a little comparison. Commando Kano is a grappler correct? Well Kotal Kahn (sungod), in all intent and purposes is also a grappler. Kano can tic throw using jmp3/4, d1/3/4, f33, now Kotal can use all of those (minus f33) "PLUS" b1, b14, and standing 1, so already we see more tic throw setups. Kano's command throws do 16/17% w/o meter, Kotal does 19% lvl 3 that doesn't go away EVER and is easily attained in round 1. Both characters can combo into command grabs, Kano gets 35% 1 bar, Kotal gets 35-38% meterless(43% 1bar minimum). When getting "in" Kano has f4(safe), run, dash, ball(full combo punishable), air ball(full combo punishable). Kotal has f1(shoulder-safe), f2(uppercut-semi safe), run, dash, and "amazing"walk speed. When "luring" and making them come to you; Kano has knives(high and negative on block but fast) and backdash, Kotal has sun ray(gains life), backdash, and a mid projectile that gives you +5 on block but slow. So with Kano they never "have" to come in, vs Kotal they do. Kano's command throw input is dbf4/dfb4, kotal's input is db2. Parries; Kano's counters net 18-19%, Kotal's parry nets around a 30% or more combo. Both characters take about the same risks when doing those moves. AA throw; Kano has df1 and it does damage and tosses the opponent away(even when MB'd), Kotal has an AA that does damage but when MB'd leads to a high damage combo. Both characters have to make solid reads, depend on their safe footsies, and can't rely on 50/50 to open up your opponent. Now tell me, which character is just "fine as is"?

 

[GAV]

SAFE ON BLOCK
A
F
E

PLUS ON HIT
L
U
S

How hard do I have to complain on an internet messageboard before i get my way?

It doesn't work like that anymore.

 

[kabelfritz]

Your random reply to my post is the definition of zero content. If you don't have anything to contribute maybe you should go fly a kite?

I was giving my opinion.

My reasoning is Kano's overall kit in comparison to other characters is weak.

Kano does not have tools that make a match in your favor on a consistent basis. You have to work really hard to keep up with several of these characters, some characters have way more counters to Kano's game then they should.

Kano's hitbox's are awful

Kano's strings are mostly unsafe

Kano's footsies are great but are still lacking against characters like Ermac or Cassie.

Kano's mixup game is really hard in comparison to half the cast in this game.

Kano has 1 overhead, in one variation. That overhead is not the best due to its hitbox. Hell its not even an average overhead.

Kano's wakeup game is OK I guess but once they read your wakeup ball, things get even harder than it already was.

Kano is a good zoning character, except, he isn't a great zoning character when you have other characters like Kenshi who is viewed as a zoning character, then gets buff after buff on top of it to make him viable. Kenshi now has the tools to zone, do damage, and punish opponents hard when they do find a way in. Kano's game doesn't have very good for that.

I could keep going but I won't because I'm sure you think Kano is perfect and needs nothing from nobody.

i can only talk about commando kano, and i reply the following:

hitboxes: what do you mean, hitboxes on his moves or his body like when ducking?

his strings are not mostly unsafe, the opposite is the case. 23 and b12 are -1, b31 is +1, even f33 is safe as well as his most important footsie tool f4.

kanos footsie tools are a bit short in the sense that they are not like cassies b1 (or f1?) (even though cybers b2 is) but they are safe and he has other Tools to make up for it. not every char has to be a footsie god, and kano is somewhere in the mid region of footsie quality.

commando kano is a walking mixup and i dont wanna be on the recieving end of his oki game. not just that he can mix up your defensive options 50/50 and gets standing resets everywhere, he also threatens to parry your attempts to armor out.

commando kanos wakeup game is one of the better imo, because he can either roll cancel for a combo or wakeup command grab which beats baiting blockers and can revert positions in the corner. db 2 is also a great unarmored wakeup which you can sneak in mid-string and win.

kano has good and not great zoning, i agree with that (even though cybers mid knives are very valuable), and thats alright because his gameplan is not one-dimensional.

kano is a very well-designed character whose power should be the measurement for every character in the game, and as long as the rest of the cast doesnt get overbuffed and maybe some chars lose a bit more bullshit here and there (hellfire scorp uninterruptable cancels, shinnok plus a bazillion MB on block), he is completely fine.

 

[RYX]

let's not bring reptile into this thread, we all know he doesn't need anything

i don't even want to start on that kotal comparison lol

i don't see any issue with kano right now. aside from buff threads being the newest TYM plague, he's pretty solid as a character and very functional.

 

[kabelfritz]

Ok since I've seen some comments about how good commando is "as is", I decided to do a little comparison. Commando Kano is a grappler correct? Well Kotal Kahn (sungod), in all intent and purposes is also a grappler. Kano can tic throw using jmp3/4, d1/3/4, f33, now Kotal can use all of those (minus f33) "PLUS" b1, b14, and standing 1, so already we see more tic throw setups. Kano's command throws do 16/17% w/o meter, Kotal does 19% lvl 3 that doesn't go away EVER and is easily attained in round 1. Both characters can combo into command grabs, Kano gets 35% 1 bar, Kotal gets 35-38% meterless(43% 1bar minimum). When getting "in" Kano has f4(safe), run, dash, ball(full combo punishable), air ball(full combo punishable). Kotal has f1(shoulder-safe), f2(uppercut-semi safe), run, dash, and "amazing"walk speed. When "luring" and making them come to you; Kano has knives(high and negative on block but fast) and backdash, Kotal has sun ray(gains life), backdash, and a mid projectile that gives you +5 on block but slow. So with Kano they never "have" to come in, vs Kotal they do. Kano's command throw input is dbf4/dfb4, kotal's input is db2. Parries; Kano's counters net 18-19%, Kotal's parry nets around a 30% or more combo. AA throw; Kano has df1 and it does same and tosses the opponent away(even when MB'd), Kotal has an AA that does damage but when MB'd leads to a high DMG combo. Both characters take about the same risks when doing those moves. Both characters have to make solid reads, depend on their safe footsies, and can't rely on 50/50 to open up your opponent. Now tell me, which character is just "fine as is"?

if you also wanna talk about kotals downside: kotal has a super-awkward backwalk, his parry is way harder to make use of than kanos (mostly against single-hitting wakeups imo), all of his strings have either long startup or block disadvantage and he will never get his projectile out against a knife-throwing kano.

imo kotal clearly outdamages kano, while kano has the way better mobility and zoning. kotals biggest advantage in this mu is that he can potentially heal himself while ducking knives, but i also think he has a hard time getting in on kano at all.

imo both are perfectly fine characters which are neither over- nor underpowered.

i dont mean to defend (commando) kano at all cost, but some of the stuff written here is simply wrong or incomplete.

 

[Dean]

i can only talk about commando kano, and i reply the following:

hitboxes: what do you mean, hitboxes on his moves or his body like when ducking?

his strings are not mostly unsafe, the opposite is the case. 23 and b12 are -1, b31 is +1, even f33 is safe as well as his most important footsie tool f4.

kanos footsie tools are a bit short in the sense that they are not like cassies b1 (or f1?) (even though cybers b2 is) but they are safe and he has other Tools to make up for it. not every char has to be a footsie god, and kano is somewhere in the mid region of footsie quality.

commando kano is a walking mixup and i dont wanna be on the recieving end of his oki game. not just that he can mix up your defensive options 50/50 and gets standing resets everywhere, he also threatens to parry your attempts to armor out.

commando kanos wakeup game is one of the better imo, because he can either roll cancel for a combo or wakeup command grab which beats baiting blockers and can revert positions in the corner. db 2 is also a great unarmored wakeup which you can sneak in mid-string and win.

kano has good and not great zoning, i agree with that (even though cybers mid knives are very valuable), and thats alright because his gameplan is not one-dimensional.

kano is a very well-designed character whose power should be the measurement for every character in the game, and as long as the rest of the cast doesnt get overbuffed and maybe some chars lose a bit more bullshit here and there (hellfire scorp uninterruptable cancels, shinnok plus a bazillion MB on block), he is completely fine.

Commando is the only Kano variation I don't play.

Hitbox, his attack hitbox is shit. NJ, B1 (CT), f33, 112.. Its not good.

I have a good pressure game in cutthroat but its because I've got really creative with his variation.

Against specific characters, that pressure is limited due to their superior kit. Raiden, Cassie for example.

Overall he isnt a viable competitive character, I just think he needs slightly tweaked to keep up with half the cast in this game.

I don't think Kano is awful but I don't think he stands a chance in the competitive scene as is, he needs a little love.

There isn't anything wrong with that.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Let's be honest, people in this thread are NOT looking for balance - they are looking to be brought up to par with other unbalanced characters, we know this, and underneath all the bullshit, they know this too, hence why all efforts to point out what a good place this character is in, have been met with no attempt to be reasonable and have just been ignored, misdirected, or met with increasingly reaching responses to justify their demand for buffs.

It's ok for a character to have some flaws guys, they don't need to be a monster in every single aspect. Kanos defined strengths and weaknesses are what has him in such a good place. If he got all the buffs you are asking for, give it a month and you'd be complaining he doesn't have the reach of Kung Jin or some other nonsense. Just stop guys

 

[DFC]

let's not bring reptile into this thread, we all know he doesn't need anything

i don't even want to start on that kotal comparison lol

i don't see any issue with kano right now. aside from buff threads being the newest TYM plague, he's pretty solid as a character and very functional.

Most people are asking for reasonable things like making a move useful(choke, up laser, ex buff), Or outright fixes(OH B1, Command grabs, though thats universal). Of course there are things that too much (my ex knife suggestion, the OP), and things that are very debatable(damage scalinhttps://youtu.be/krJjuwLcI-kg).

 

[DFC]

And this is why I never post from mobile. The above post of mine is incomplete fyi, I'll fix it later

 

[SaltShaker]

I'm Australian and Kano is my mate for sure, but for your guys sake I hope he gets nerfed next patch, if it happens I will laugh, and will once again be a believer in karma

this community is the epitome of the things that I hate about TYM. I can understand Kitana players asking for buffs, I can even understand Reptile players asking for it, but Kano?! Seriously?!!

I love how in your "completely impartial" opinion, the only people allowed to have any authority on the matter should be the people with the most reason to downplay, lie, misdirect conversation, and blatantly ignore stronger reasoning concerning the matter.... who then proceed to do exactly that. Lol. Why is the entire rest of the communities opinions here worthless? I have no reason or bias to say your character is any weaker than any of the other ones, and I'd love to see a balanced game so if he was below the rest, buffs would definitely be in order.

However, WE ALL KNOW that is not the case what so ever. Salt Shaker, keep back-pedaling, if I have to go back a couple of pages and quote the posts of you saying Kano is at the middle of the cast and at a fine spot right now, and that the only reason you want buffs is for a meta 3-5 patches away from now where you predict he will be low tier, I will. This argument is so ridiculously stupid and short-sighted all I'm reading is "NRS, turn on easy mode for my multiplayer experience please!"

Everyone, I want you all to read this post. Then I want everyone to reference my posts in this thread and othe Kano forum. People on both sides of the discussion that have talked with me. If have shown to be the "epotime" of what's wrong with TYM, "lied", or of all things "misdirect conversation", let me know how I did so and I'll drop Kano today for Erron Black.


That's how confident I am that you are on an island with that perspective of me, and to a greater extent the community.

 

[Dean]

Let's be honest, people in this thread are NOT looking for balance - they are looking to be brought up to par with other unbalanced characters, we know this, and underneath all the bullshit, they know this too, hence why all efforts to point out what a good place this character is in, have been met with no attempt to be reasonable and have just been ignored, misdirected, or met with increasingly reaching responses to justify their demand for buffs.

It's ok for a character to have some flaws guys, they don't need to be a monster in every single aspect. Kanos defined strengths and weaknesses are what has him in such a good place. If he got all the buffs you are asking for, give it a month and you'd be complaining he doesn't have the reach of Kung Jin or some other nonsense. Just stop guys

This doesn't make sense though.

Kano is my dude. I'm sticking it out with him even though I find it so much easier to win with other characters.

Other characters are really strong, Kano isn't.

So your argument is that Kano players should suffer because he is more balanced (weaker) than other characters, like that Is a good thing?

If all of these other characters got normalized, cool, I get it. That's not going to happen though.

So by default doesn't it make more sense to have a few tweaks to Kano's game to contend with these other characters?

Am I supposed to feel good about being beat because of certain characters kit, not because of another players skill?

I don't think so. I can't help that they made these other characters unbalanced, but they did, I want my main to be viable against them.

I don't care if they get nerfed or Kano gets buffed. Something has to give if he is ever to be viable in a competitive sense.

 

[GLoRToR]

which character is just "fine as is"?

No character is "fine" I would think, because this is a system we're talking and they're all linked in a mix-and-match.
What I find wrong is unblockable untechable moves in a setting such as this.
I'll learn to backstep it but then I'm still opening myself for a 50/50 with his spin if he decides to follow up with that instead.

 

[kabelfritz]

Commando is the only Kano variation I don't play.

Hitbox, his attack hitbox is shit. NJ, B1 (CG), f33, 112.. Its not good.

I have a good pressure game in cutthroat but its because I've got really creative with his variation.

Against specific characters, that pressure is limited due to their superior kit. Raiden, Cassie for example.

Overall he isnt a viable competitive character, I just think he needs slightly tweaked to keep up with half the cast in this game.

I don't think Kano is awful but I don't think he stands a chance in the competitive scene as is, he needs a little love.

There isn't anything wrong with that.

creativity and trying to make the best of your character is a necessary step before asking for changes, good job on that. i understand that kanos footsies in commando seem to be lacking because b1 is gone and you dont have a parry to threaten reverse mixups after f4, while the added advancing strings are unsafe and his mediocre jumpins dont make up for it. These things dont carry over into commando though, so changes should be limited to his variation-specific tools. with my limited knowledge i feel that the only thing he could have changed now is a better hitbox on b1. still i always felt that move is intended as a more defensive move to punish opponents footsie tools at max hit range due to its backward movement, or as mixup tool in the corner only. imo his neutral game still revolves around throwing knives and forcing spacing errors.

 

[RYX]

No character is "fine" I would think, because this is a system we're talking and they're all linked in a mix-and-match.
What I find wrong is unblockable untechable moves in a setting such as this.
I'll learn to backstep it but then I'm still opening myself for a 50/50 with his spin if he decides to follow up with that instead.

command grabs are the farthest thing from problematic in this game, lol

 

[GLoRToR]

command grabs are the farthest thing from problematic in this game, lol

I'd think zoning is the farthest but you're right that they are not AS problematic as frame data issues, mixup galore and a vast layout of horribly balanced roster times three.

 

[RYX]

I'd think zoning is the farthest but you're right that they are not AS problematic as frame data issues, mixup galore and a vast layout of horribly balanced roster times three.

you misunderstand

command grabs are -not- a problem. Most of the characters who have one have a tradeoff for having it, especially if it's really strong, and it's usually their primary mix-up/threat tool. especially for Commando Kano, he's nonexistent without them

being able to tech them would make them worthless too

 

[MsMiharo]

Also, I like how this thread, not counting the original OP, has been one of the most rational, logical, and reasonably discussed buff/nerf threads in TYM history on both sides of the argument, yet some people would still criticize the discussion lol.

"The salt is real" not really...?

 

[SaltShaker]

"The salt is real" not really...?

Well maybe for one person it is.

 

[Error]

It's ok for a character to have some flaws guys, they don't need to be a monster in every single aspect. Kanos defined strengths and weaknesses are what has him in such a good place. If he got all the buffs you are asking for, give it a month and you'd be complaining he doesn't have the reach of Kung Jin or some other nonsense. Just stop guys

Gotta love slippery slope arguments. Fact is, it's been a pattern of NRS to leave certain characters behind on patches for 2 games now, so not asking for simple fixes now is asking to have your character left behind once the ~6 month mark comes around. NRS is very unlikely to tone down the current top 10 to the point where they completely drop with a few exceptions, and it would be pointless to, because every game will have top characters and bottom characters regardless.

Speaking strictly as a Commando player, having choke be ~useful~ and having his armored command grab not whiff for no reason would make him no way near broken, and he still wouldn't be top 10.