Ff10 - Tom Brady (Sub-Zero) Vs CDjr (Jax)

[CrimsonShadow]

I get what you're trying to say, but using casual games as a determining factor for anything is completely ass-backwards. It goes against the standard of every other competitive event in the history of the universe. There is nothing on the line in casuals, and it's an opportunity to try new things and learn. That is why wins and losses do not count in a casual setting. Not to mention the yomi is competely different in a long set vs. a ft2 or 3.

I hear you -- in terms of player standing, tournament record is definitely where it's at.

But in terms of determining a matchup, tournaments don't carry nearly as much weight. In such a short set you're trying to 1) Adjust to whoever you're playing, and how they're playing and 2) Adjust to whatever gimmicks/character-specific strategies they're making use of. Plus the tournament conditions and whatever pressures come along with that.

Emprically there's very little you can gain from a couple of games played under these conditions as far as determing all the ins and outs of a MU.

It's in longer sets, when both players have an opportunity to feel each other out, see all the gimmicks and tactics, and basically exhaust each others' resources and tools, that you have an opportunity to see what really works and doesn't work in a matchup overall. It's not a matter of personal pride like the tournament record stuff; just of mining possibilities and collecting lots and lots of data. That's impossible to do in a miniscule set under tournament conditions.

 

[Bidu]

You can't determine the extent of a matchup from FT2's and FT3's. So yeah, it takes a much longer set (more than one) to fully explore the nuances.

For sure, no one should ever be declaring a matchup "because this is what happened in a couple of FT2s in tournament".

I know it's a different game but this instantly reminded me when Infiltration (Akuma) just obliterated Daigo (Ryu) at EVO 2012. Few months later Daigo goes against Infiltration again in a FT10 set. I'll post the videos in case someone didn't watch this and is curious about the results. Winning a single FT2 in a tournament doesn't mean that much.

EVO 2012:

FT10 Challenge:

Now tell me. Who's the better player?

 

[Cossner]

I'm not defining anything. I'm simply stating how several top players overcame this seemingly impossible ice clone issue in tournament to beat one of the best Sub Zero players because they learned the match up. I also forgot to add Zyphox (Takeda) who beat Tom at Paradise found by playing excellently to his characters strengths, and the scorpion player (forget the name) who eliminated him from NWM.

Funny that you mention him. Did you know that Taquito-Reptile is like massively in Reptile's favor? Zyfax could barely get if at all a single game on me an entire morning, not because he "doesnt know the mu" or because he's a bad player. It's a bad match up. That's it.

You're the one defining the entire meta game (trying to anyway) by calling the ice clone an issue and implying that it needs to be changed.

I'm defining the entire meta game by calling the ice clone an issue and implying that it needs to be change.

Wow. Do you even read yourself?

First off, stop insulting people who are genuinely trying to debate with you. All these not-so-subtle posts like the one above "Lawl these randoms" and "Lawl inb4 tym meta catches up".

What's there to debate? It's obviously an absurd tool but you guys keep crying about it. Just deal with it. Repeat after me: "the clone is amazing". See that wasnt too hard. And yeah, I'm not gonna get blown up by some random Brazilian who has no idea the struggle my characters have suffer throughout the years lawl. > Plays a low tier for 2 years > places at majors with him > random people come and tell him to gitgud. Yeah right.

You're the complaining that it's an issue and you're the one that has failed to give any validate points here whatsoever. You were even asked what you would change if it were to be nerfed and you couldn't think of anything reasonable. Something about breathing room but then saying that wouldn't change much.

Yeah. What points? If I jump I get blown up by the OH. If I poke I get frozen. If I throw or tech a throw I get frozen. If I tech roll I get frozen. If I block I get thrown and frozen. You have to realize I'm not playing your run on the mill random Sub who does strings on block to Ice Clone.

Tournaments results are what matter and when everyone tries to play their best. I don't care if you play with them behind the scenes or who beats who in casuals, tournament results are a very valid thing to use in an argument and always have been.

Are you seriously suggesting that we base match-ups on casuals and not actual tournament play?

Are you seriously suggesting that we do? In that case GA is 7-3 against Bane and JC is better than Sonya and Kenshi. Base match ups on opinions from top players who play the game offline at the highest level for hundreds of games, not from what you see in a FT3. Duhr.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Funny that you mention him. Did you know that Taquito-Reptile is like massively in Reptile's favor? Zyfax could barely get if at all a single game on me an entire morning, not because he "doesnt know the mu" or because he's a bad player. It's a bad match up. That's it.

I'm defining the entire meta game by calling the ice clone an issue and implying that it needs to be change.

Wow. Do you even read yourself?

What's there to debate? It's obviously an absurd tool but you guys keep crying about it. Just deal with it. Repeat after me: "the clone is amazing". See that wasnt too hard. And yeah, I'm not gonna get blown up by some random Brazilian who has no idea the struggle my characters have suffer throughout the years lawl. > Plays a low tier for 2 years > places at majors with him > random people come and tell him to gitgud. Yeah right.

Yeah. What points? If I jump I get blown up by the OH. If I poke I get frozen. If I throw or tech a throw I get frozen. If I tech roll I get frozen. If I block I get thrown and frozen. You have to realize I'm not playing your run on the mill random Sub who does strings on block to Ice Clone.


Are you seriously suggesting that we do? In that case GA is 7-3 against Bane and JC is better than Sonya and Kenshi. Base match ups on opinions from top players who play the game offline at the highest level for hundreds of games, not at what you see from a FT3. Duhr.

I don't play against a run of te mill sub either (In fact, isn't Usedforglue the only sub to win at a real tournament by this point?), I agree with you that the clone is powerful, but you forgot to mention that you can punish all the options you said you'd get hit by.

Just try your best not to let that shithead character corner you, I spose.

 

[Briggs8417]

The only things I've learned from this thread is that @RM Cossner is getting super Hollywood, and Sub Zero is still broken.

 

[SplitMushroom]

It's probably just because I haven't played a really good Sub-Zero yet, but I use F/T and the corner isn't tooo too bad. Like I get that it isn't where I want to be at all, but I can NJP while I'm there and a well timed one of those can lead to an opportunity to escape.

Also boss toss might worked but it might freeze me, I haven't tried it.

 

[Cossner]

I don't play against a run of te mill sub either (In fact, isn't Usedforglue the only sub to win at a real tournament by this point?), I agree with you that the clone is powerful, but you forgot to mention that you can punish all the options you said you'd get hit by.

Just try your best not to let that shithead character corner you, I spose.

I get 9% or so for 1 bar. Doing the ex klaw swipe is suuuper hard. I can't really punish the b2 if the clone is next to me. My best option so far is literally nj4. But yeah if he's not in the corner, I win for free, if he is in the corner, I'm 95% confirmed dead.

The only things I've learned from this thread is that @RM Cossner is getting super Hollywood, and Sub Zero is still broken.

These are $500 dollar sunglasses. Also, why am I getting talked down by people I've never heard or seen play? Thank god for actual top people like Foxy being useful and understanding.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Sub is finaly a realy great Character (after MK9 ) but i dont think he is OP , people forget on big faktor in these vids and its Tom Fucking Brady, he is at this point the best Sub Zero and his corner game is flawless. So maybe nerf TomBrady first

 

[Bidu]

Just posted 3 more sets from CDjr's stream. Two against REO (playing Quan chi and Erron Black) and another one against CDjr's Jax.

 

[Invincible Salads]

I said what I said, because it's not the first time I see you around crying over Sub-Zero. And I don't really understand why you're only talking about Kung Lao here when the video shows another bunch of characters. There's a lot harder matches ups for Sub than KL. And that video was done has a counter-asnwer to all the cry baby in this forum saying Sub-Zero is absolutely safe in all of this strings ending in Klone, which he obviously isn't. Did you even read the exemple I gave to you about Ermac and Jacqui?




I woulnd't really call a waste if it leads to 25%+ punish.




It ain't free, son.




I really don't agree with this. Like I said it's not a "free combo" like the other dude said. It's all about mind games. It's not like it's inescapable.

pretty close to free though.

 

[-narshkajke-]

sub is good the way it is, the klone damage have been normalized, just let it be, every character have their own way to beat the klone, it's not an end all be all if there's a klone out there. And Tom is just that good of a player, you should call nerf on Tom not on sub)

 

[Bidu]

Exactly lol

 

[itzpookiie]

Can we replace every "C" in the game with a "K"?