Does a character need a 50/50 to be good?

[Endeavor]

I know this was said earlier in the tread, I don't think they need 50/50s I agree that normals are what make a character, well that and good frame data. Pre-patch superman was considered the best character in the game cause F2 had gdlk range and was 8 frames. superman himself had no 50/50 with the exception of divebomb, and you didn't need to use that at all to win with him. Same thing with Johnny cage, his f3 was amazing at 9 frames and 0/+1 on block. No 50/50.

 

[SonicFox5000]

I want to know everyone's honest opinion. I've seen X and Y characters get labeled "not good" over the week and the most popular reasoning was because "they don't have a 50/50". Personally, I think a character can be great without needing a good 50/50. However, I will say that I DO believe that 50/50s are usually the easiest tools to search for and exploit early into the game without requiring much practice. Some of the dominate tools that may fall into the category of spacing, zoning, footsies, conditioning, etc. etc. you will most likely not see developed until later into the game through finesse. This is why I think 50/50s are always the culprit in to impulsively determining if a character is effective or not early on. Let us not forget that Killer Frost had one of the best 50/50s ever put into a NRS game, and she was considered to not be one of the best characters. (Injustice Example)

What do you guys think?

no look at AAAAAAAAAAAAquaman lol

 

[Shipetopic]

I know this was said earlier in the tread, I don't think they need 50/50s I agree that normals are what make a character, well that and good frame data. Pre-patch superman was considered the best character in the game cause F2 had gdlk range and was 8 frames. superman himself had no 50/50 with the exception of divebomb, and you didn't need to use that at all to win with him. Same thing with Johnny cage, his f3 was amazing at 9 frames and 0/+1 on block. No 50/50.

Of course its good to know exact definiton of 50/50, but superman's ability to start pressure from mile away and being safe all over while preforming low/over head mixup was godlike. (I guess he had somekind of overhead if I recall correctly)

50/50 is an easy way to open a medium level player. Who blocks in one stance(crouching or standing), not fuzziguarding.

For example, If we take Erron Black string(don't remember in particular ), but there is good range, it has low AND OH in it AND it launches into combo.

50/50 is one of the kinda natural gimmics.

 

[Smarrgasm]

Guys this is supposed to be in the frame of reference of MKX.

 

[Zyos]

Honestly i feel that a good 50/50 will be a deciding factor. People fail to realize a good 50/50 10 days from release or 10 years from now is still making the opposing player guess it doesnt matter the players skill level at that point hes still guessing.

 

[bjholmes3]

50/50 is an easy way to open a medium level player. Who blocks in one stance(crouching or standing), not fuzziguarding.

You miss the point on what a 50/50 is. You literally have 0 options except to guess whether to block high or to block low. Nothing else works. Your chances of escape are no different as a "medium level player" than they would be if you were Sonic Fox himself.

 

[Solid]

Nopes. Remember F23?

 

[Absinthesize]

is it required? no, depends what the character has going for it besides that.

does it help? certainly.

a 50/50 is a guess, the only thing some players have is the ability to guess better. whether it be luck or skill thru experience.

one could even argue 50/50 is bad for the skill progression of a game as its somewhat down to luck.

but i think they are good, considering i can do easy 30%+ no meter midscreen and nearly 40% no meter corner with mixups and no wake up game with the character im curently using basically if you guess wrong 3-4 times i win.

that said, normals are important imo. i just need to learn to better capitilize on my normals.

 

[bjholmes3]

I smell a fellow Quan

 

[Absinthesize]

I smell a fellow Quan

cryomancer actually

i know, dirty dirty weak cryomancer

 

[Red Reaper]

50/50s are good in this game but like 70% aren't safe vs tempest lao the real problem aha.

Really now?

...Why is that exactly?

 

[bjholmes3]

Really now?

...Why is that exactly?

4 frame EX spin, fastest move in the game

 

[Map the Soul]

People need to understand what 50/50s are first. Having an overhead and a low starter arent 50/50s.

My answer is No.

um ur example is a perfect demonstration of a 50/50

 

[bjholmes3]

um ur example is a perfect demonstration of a 50/50

Not so. 50/50 means the defender has two options, block high or low. Someone merely having a low and an overhead is not enough, it needs to be set up with the hitstun frame advantage. Otherwise there are other options, such as armor, snuffing, backdash, jumping, etc..

 

[Map the Soul]

my avatar conveys my reaction to the above

 

[Sultani]

Honestly i feel that a good 50/50 will be a deciding factor. People fail to realize a good 50/50 10 days from release or 10 years from now is still making the opposing player guess it doesnt matter the players skill level at that point hes still guessing.

This is true, but people are not understanding that there are very few situatiins where guessing high and low are your only options.

Mixups are not 50/50s. Running in after a knock down and throwing out a high or low is not a 50/50. Having an overhead starter and a low starter is not a 50/50.

Admittedly i have not played all the matchups, but i have encountered exactly one situation where i felt like guessing was the only option, but I plan on testing whether or not ita even true when i get the chance

 

[HeroesNZ]

If we take Erron Black string(don't remember in particular ), but there is good range, it has low AND OH in it AND it launches into combo.

You must be referring to F13 which is Overhead - > Low, but it doesn't make a difference because as soon as you block the F1 you should be blocking low anyway. It also doesn't launch, it must be cancelled into an unsafe launcher and can't be hit-confirmed (Outlaw). Marksman is a little different.

People are comparing Superman's F23 to MKX. In Injustice, movement was generally poor so if you had an 8f advancing normal with hella range then you were already dominating (not to mention all of the crossup/non-crossup shenanigans).

MKX is different. Movement is infinitely better across the cast, what with the run mechanic & faster walkspeeds. If Superman's F23 was in MKX you could probably just walk away/backdash and it would whiff (midscreen). Plus, it looks like most characters have similarly-ranged footsie tools in MKX, so most characters are on level ground.

There also aren't half as many plus on block moves anymore. No more +8 B/F3s, no more +5 D1s etc... and gone are the days of left/right mixups. There aren't any 80% 1 bar guaranteed resets (yet), and no more Kabal pressure/zoning (yet). No more IAZB zoning (until DLC is released Kappa).

People also compare to Aquaman, but there aren't any traits that let you slip out of combos for free, and there's nothing on Trident Rush's level (though I hear D'Vorah comes pretty close?).

I know it sounds bad, but if you don't have a damaging 50/50, you're already lacking. At this stage in the game's life it's an easy way to open someone up. I'm not saying that you need a 50/50 to be good (or that a 50/50 = good), I'm saying that there are less things that could compensate for the lack of the 50/50 so far (barely a week into the game's life).

 

[Peckapowa]

Dnt agree with anyone who thinks just a 50/50 cuts it. That would be a one trick pony. Need lots more than that.

You need more but the question is if you need them to be great/top tier

3 examples of chars who appear great without 50/50s

Kano(cyber): in need of patch 8f neutral mid and stupid mid projectile and armor + aa and mobility

TEmpest lao:

Liu kang: block infinite, doesn't need his ohs one bit

 

[Peckapowa]

Quan is bottom 1 even though he has a 50/50. Missing the point here.

Someone's playing the wrong variations

 

[Peckapowa]

50/50 set ups are great to have, but they do not necessarily make a character good. Scorpion in MK9 had 50/50 set ups, but he was not considered to be a great character. I feel that characters without 50/50 set ups need to work harder to open up opponents. In addition to that, characters without 50/50 set ups usually have some tools to compensate for the inability to mix up opponents. Good projectiles come to mind.

Yeah like quan chi, because he has the best zoning in the game they didn't give him a 50/50 vortex

Or johnny cage fisticuffs, because he has 0 50/50s they gave him a minor chip buff you have to activate, and a flash kick and force balls.

 

[Fergus]

I agree with certain posts, there's only a few certain situations where a 50/50 is real and cannot be backdashed, armoured through, delayed wakeup on etc.

Think of Cassie's EX Nutcracker in the corner, she has a real 50/50 there and F3/DF1 are 14f and 12f respectively so you cannot fuzzy guard either and she can loop back into the mixup again, this is an extremely scary situation to be in and I think this 50/50 alone just shoots Cassie up along with her b1,2 dominating at neutral and her extremely high corner damage (Just found a 46% meterless combo off her F3 overhead a few hours ago) She can also keep herself safe with EX DB2 after F3/DF1 which as far as I know only Reptile can punish it consistently. Also she has a F3,4 string in Hollywood that does 18% for an overhead string and is +1 on block. Corner Cassie is extremely scary and is no joke.

But whether a 50/50 makes or breaks a character I don't know, but in Cassie's case, it makes her extremely strong.

With regards to risk/reward off 50/50s (Just talked about Cassie's a bit there with EX DB2 and F3,4), there's option selects cropping up which may shift the risk/reward of a lot of 50/50s in the future which I'm not really a fan of. Cassie can already do an OS with her F3 (F3 xx DB2 comes out on hit and F33 comes out on block, a -6/-7 string with a bit of pushback)

But we should let the game flesh out and see what the meta game is like in the future, so for now. I'm of the opinion "no" but it certainly does help.

 

[Red Reaper]

4 frame EX spin, fastest move in the game

Someone told me about that recently.. lol. Holy sh*t. And that was my least favorite variation too!

 

[Wallach]

Sort of, but the potency isn't just in the 50/50's; it's also how they combine with the huge advantage on pokes. If you didn't have that, it'd still be a little earier to boil it down to reads. But there are several characters where, when they hit you with a d1 or d3, are given a 50/50 immediately -- which may or may not lead to either vortex, or some kind of looped guessing game.

Imo although you can try to bait pokes, someone who's fishing for them will still end up landing one, and then you're going to have to guess (maybe for the rest of your lifebar). The risk vs. reward on the poke confirmed into 50/50 is in many cases a lot less than a raw run-up 50/50 itself.

This to me is a large part of why I think some people feel 50/50s are so important here in the early days of MKX. I find it surprising how many fast pokes result in so much hit advantage.

 

[Eji1700]

In this game or in general?

It really comes down to what else is strong. While it wasn't perfect, the idea behind MK9 felt like GG, and that's why I liked it. Everyone (who mattered) had oppressively broken shit, and it was who could apply that shit best that won. You could win off of 50/50's, absurdly strong combo's, oppressive zoning, corner traps, KD vortexes, or insane footsies into horrific frame traps. At least in theory. The reality might not have been quite as ideal, but the pieces were all there and they at least did an ok job of making them work for some.

MKX right now feels like some characters get their "Style" fleshed out. So scorp, sub, black, cassie, etc. Others however feel like serious pieces of their kit are still missing. I've been desperately trying to main shinnok, and it feels very much like they knew what his gameplan was supposed to be (and it wasn't 50/50's), but never quite got around to giving him everything to execute that plan.

 

[Juggs]

No. But MKX's safe 50/50's that have quick start up AND lead to 25%+ damage are bullshit.

Once those are patched, the world will be a better place.