Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[THTB]

With character variations completely changing some characters' movesets, the variation lock definately makes sense.

While that does make sense, the fact that's being ignored is that characters still have a core set of normals and specials, and counterpicks are sometimes just going to come down to something in that core being the main culprit on either end.

 

[Vilén]

I really disagree with variation lock, at least for a while in the competitive scene, just to try it out. Say like "Standard character lock rules, no variation lock" for a while just to try it out either up to or after the first MKX major.

Longterm, I'd like to see it really pan out and become a sort of chemotherapy for the cancer that is counter-picking.

Or it could be a total disaster, who the fuck knows? But at least this way it would actually encourage early exploration of the metagame rather than just nipping it in the bud because seriously, fuck that bud.

We'll certainly discover bullshit a lot faster one way or another.

 

[Zoidberg747]

For anyone who is confused on the proposed rulesets, let me try and get things straight(Please correct me if I am wrong).

1. Variation lock. Winner must stay with the variation they won with, no matter what.

2. No Variation Lock. Winner must stay with the variation they won with UNLESS the loser changes character. Then once the loser picks their character, they must WAIT until the winner now picks their new/same variation. The loser is then free to pick whichever variation they choose.

Im not going to debate either way, but did I list both supposed rulesets?

@Doombawkz
@Compbros

 

[Compbros]

For anyone who is confused on the proposed rulesets, let me try and get things straight(Please correct me if I am wrong).

1. Variation lock. Winner must stay with the variation they won with, no matter what.

2. No Variation Lock. Winner must stay with the variation they won with UNLESS the loser changes character. Then once the loser picks their character, they must WAIT until the winner now picks their new/same variation. The loser is then free to pick whichever variation they choose.

Im not going to debate either way, but did I list both supposed rulesets?

@Doombawkz
@Compbros

Correct.

 

[Desperdicio]

Can somebody explain the tournament rules of those games that are supposed to have a similar system? Or send a link, of course. Because while some of the pro "winner variation unlocked" tell us to inform ourselves, they don't provide a source of information. It'd be nice to also point out what exactly led the players of those games to that decision. Was it happening all the time that the winner of the first round was the loser of the second and the winner of the third? I would like to know in what sense these games had "variations", too. For instance, I don't consider ultras in Street Fighter that similar to variations in MKX. In fact, before I read all these comments, I thought variations as they are in MKX were something pretty new to fighting games; now I'm in doubt.

If someone sent me links or explained personally all of that, I would appreciate it.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Correct.

Alright.

I'll let the rest of you debate. I'm still torn to be completely honest.

 

[Vilén]

Can somebody explain the tournament rules of those games that are supposed to have a similar system? Or send a link, of course. Because while some of the pro "winner variation unlocked" tell us to inform ourselves, they don't provide a source of information. It'd be nice to also point out what exactly led the players of those games to that decision. Was it happening all the time that the winner of the first round was the loser of the second and the winner of the third? I would like to know in what sense these games had "variations", too. For instance, I don't consider ultras in Street Fighter that similar to variations in MKX. In fact, before I read all these comments, I thought variations as they are in MKX were something pretty new to fighting games; now I'm in doubt.

If someone sent me links or explained personally all of that, I would appreciate it.

The only other game I know with this kind of system are Melty Blood and Arcana Heart. Primarily Japanese audience, thus this discussion is moot because they character lock you from the start just by default. No clue on the American scene for either game.

 

[Compbros]

Can somebody explain the tournament rules of those games that are supposed to have a similar system? Or send a link, of course. Because while some of the pro "winner variation unlocked" tell us to inform ourselves, they don't provide a source of information. It'd be nice to also point out what exactly led the players of those games to that decision. Was it happening all the time that the winner of the first round was the loser of the second and the winner of the third? I would like to know in what sense these games had "variations", too. For instance, I don't consider ultras in Street Fighter that similar to variations in MKX. In fact, before I read all these comments, I thought variations as they are in MKX were something pretty new to fighting games; now I'm in doubt.

If someone sent me links or explained personally all of that, I would appreciate it.

I doubt you find recent things because the rules are known at that point, it'd be like seeing "double random stage select" late in Injustice's life.


http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3584-west-toast-xiv-the-revival-july-24th-ffa-mbcc105-ah3-gg-bb-and-more/

Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code v1.05:
Time: 5:00PM
Entry Fee: $5.00 (+.25 pay to play)
Rules:
- Will be held on Arcade cabinet.
- Double Elimination, 2/3 matches, 3/5 Finals
- Winner must keep character (but may switch Moon-style). Loser may counter-pick. Double-blind character selection available on request.
- No restriction on infinite combos or characters. Glitches are allowed if they do not crash (soft-crash or hard-crash) the game.
- We will be using v1.05. If a new version comes out without sufficient time to practice it, we will not use that version. (For now, we will be using v1.05 unless noted otherwise)
- Controller Failure: Controller Failure: If you suspect your arcade controls of malfunctioning, immediately raise your hands to halt the match. You may not retroactively call control failure after a round or match has finished. This will be penalized as a Forfeiture if abused to gain an advantage in a match.
- DQ/Forfeiture: If you cause interference during a match (due to physical distraction), you are subject to forfeiture of the round. If it is deemed intentional, you may be subject to a two-round forfeiture or outright disqualification.
- Cover-My-Ass-Clause: In case of a dispute that is covered by this ruleset, final decision will be made by a judge. In the case of an event not covered by this ruleset, all decisions made by judges are final.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3944-frosty-faustings-iv-ggxx-bb-umvc3-ssfivae-mk-and-more-chicago-il-1712/

Arcana Heart 3: singlesPS3 (by Greats)

$5 entry fee (top 3 payout 70/30/10 split)
Best 2/3, double elimination. Winners finals, Losers finals, and Grand finals are all 3/5.
No game breaking glitches (i.e. Tyr Nazuna lock glitch)
Winner must keep character, loser my switch. Both players are allowed to switch Arcana on win or loss. Blind arcana select is allowed (by the games built in function)

Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code 1.07 PC Ver. (run by Brandinoli)
- $5 Entry fee (payout's 70/20/10 for top 3)
- Double elim, best of 2/3 games, winners finals, losers finals, and grand finals will all be 3/5
- In game macros are allowed
- No game breaking glitches, pausing will result in forfeiture of the match
- Winner may not switch characters, losers may switch character, both players will be allowed to switch moon styles win or lose.

I could keep going through these posts but it's mostly this same thing over and over.


Edit: As for why, it's most likely because they found that to be best for their game. It may not have been anything egregious that forced a switch, just a general "the game seems better overall if we do this". I was not a part of the AH scene back then so I couldn't tell you outright.

 

[Vilén]

So all the other games that have this feature have their tournament rules set to Character Lock/No Variation Lock.

This should be the MKX standard until it ruins the game for some reason. Thread literally over, right?

But of course not.

 

[Konqrr]

bro you need to chill this is a discussion not a end all be all and honestly i think it should be ran like cvs 2 in that game winner didn't get to change anything the whole point of the three variations is to basically make your pick a counter pick if one of the variations is good against there type. example would be kotal blood omen is ass against kano's commando but his other is really good at making the match up even or in his favor why should the loser have to deal with a possible oh i know this beats his but he wants to change that will only drag out the set in the long run

WTF are you talking about? Reread what I responded to, then my response. If you still feel the same way (first sentence), then you obviously don't understand what you read and I don't know what to tell you... maybe you don't attend tournaments.

 

[Zoidberg747]

So all the other games that have this feature have their tournament rules set to Character Lock/No Variation Lock.

Capcom vs. SNK 2 had Grooves(i.e variations) and you could NOT change them even if the loser changes character. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

Also, can we stop pretending like precedent matters here? This is not the supreme court, nothing is forcing us to adopt rulesets used by AH or MB. I respect those franchises but they are NOTHING like MK at all so why would we derive a ruleset from theirs? It just doesnt make any sense.

WTF are you talking about? Reread what I responded to, then my response. If you still feel the same way (first sentence), then you obviously don't understand what you read and I don't know what to tell you... maybe you don't attend tournaments.

He helps run KIT iirc. So....

 

[colt]

why are characters locked in the first place beside OG legacy stubbornness cause the old arcade locked the winner character when the loser continued? just man-up and random select all day, learn every character, stop ya whining.

 

[SaltShaker]

If dinosaur defeats evolution, I'm side betting any money match that happens between @FOREVER KING and his opponents if we're at the same tourney.


Easy money is easy.

 

[haketh]

Capcom vs. SNK 2 had Grooves(i.e variations) and you could NOT change them even if the loser changes character. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

CVS2 is an awful example Jesus Christ, question to all of you bringing that up how much of CVS2 did y'all play? CVS2 doesn't work as a connection because it was a system choice for your characterS, emphasis on that plural there. Being able to switch mechanics on all three characters is a huge leap from changing one thing on one single character.

 

[HomeLee1121]

Thread title is "can we get a consensus".....based on that poll consensus is that winner stays character/variation lock.

 

[ChatterBox]

Thread title is "can we get a consensus".....based on that poll consensus is that winner stays character/variation lock.

Right now it's 131 for vs 125 against variation lock. I'd hardly say that's a consensus.

I'm interested in the debate and I'll be trying to get each rule set run at locals in the first month or two. Right now my favorite is var change if loser changes character, winner picks var first. That seems to me the most likely to get variation changes to happen, quickly, and actually treat it as a 30 (or whatever) character game.

 

[HomeLee1121]

Right now it's 131 for vs 125 against variation lock. I'd hardly say that's a consensus.

I'm interested in the debate and I'll be trying to get each rule set run at locals in the first month or two. Right now my favorite is var change if loser changes character, winner picks var first. That seems to me the most likely to get variation changes to happen, quickly, and actually treat it as a 30 (or whatever) character game.

I mean 3 different options adding up but still being outvoted by one option.......says a lot

 

[ChatterBox]

I mean 3 different options adding up but still being outvoted by one option.......says a lot

Yea, it says five percent difference, hell that's a margin of error in most polls. Everybody needs to calm down.

 

[RoboCop]

I mean 3 different options adding up but still being outvoted by one option.......says a lot

That actually means the vote for unlocks is being diluted between 3 different options. In reality, it's 126 for unlock, 131 for lock. So 49%/51%. That's pretty damn close.

 

[Compbros]

I mean 3 different options adding up but still being outvoted by one option.......says a lot

Well the one option is easy and is something all players are familiar with. It'd be like "what's the best pizza in your town" and everyone picks some fast food chain instead of one of the local spots because they've never had the local pizza but have had dominos for years.

 

[HomeLee1121]

Well the one option is easy and is something all players are familiar with. It'd be like "what's the best pizza in your town" and everyone picks some fast food chain instead of one of the local spots because they've never had the local pizza but have had dominos for years.

So it may have been brought up somewhere in these 600 posts but what if a player can hidden select a variation?

 

[Compbros]

So it may have been brought up somewhere in these 600 posts but what if a player can hidden select a variation?

I think there is an option to do that but that wouldn't be allowed for winner.

 

[Doombawkz]

I mean 3 different options adding up but still being outvoted by one option.......says a lot

Now count how many of those people it will apply to when the game comes out. Add also most of those votes were done before the argument against full lock was even formed.

If you count vote growth, more people have voted for variation unlock recently then full lock by a fair margin

 

[KRYS9984]

I have a question to ask those in favor the variation unlock rule (might have been talked about earlier and I overlooked it):

What are the winners options if his opponent (loser) decides to stick to the same character but opts to switch variation?

 

[Compbros]

I have a question to ask those in favor the variation unlock rule (might have been talked about earlier and I overlooked it):

What are the winners options if his opponent (loser) decides to stick to the same character but opts to switch variation?

Full lock. Winner can't switch character or variation in that scenario.