Can we get a consensus on Character/Variation Lock rules?

[Desperdicio]

People have to keep in mind that the simpler the better when it comes to rules. I remember when Injustice started we used some stage counterpick rules and a ton of people screwed them up. In the variation unlock ruleset, you have to first have the loser declare they are switching characters, have them pick the character and WAIT for the winner to pick his variation, then allow them to pick their variation. There are a lot of places people could mess it up, especially if they are just pot monstering for MKX but don't really play.

Ideally I think variation unlock would be best but I am skeptical that tourney's could be ran smoothly with it. I guess we'll see after the tourneys that have it.

My thoughts are basically the same, now. It's true that letting the loser choose between 30 different characters is one thing; letting him choose to counterpick with 90 characters is quite another. It's more complicated to pull off, but still possible.

 

[RoboCop]

That's my one issue, is that unlocks require communications between players. If the loser says they're going to just change variations so the winner picks their locked variations and then the loser wants to change their mind, I guess the winner could back out and re-select easily enough. But if the loser said they wanted to choose a new character and the winner chose a new variation and then the loser changed their mind, I suppose that would be on the loser, but I could see it getting ugly, especially if there wasn't a neutral party nearby to confirm the communication.

 

[KRYS9984]

If your point is that there could potentially still be a double counter-pick on the losers end with or without variation lock, then why bother having variation lock at all?

Because by standard / traditional rules, the winner is locked to their character while the loser is free to make changes (if they decided to do so). This is the most basic option and (imho) should be adopted first as a benchmark for further modifications (if necessary).

A winner shouldn't have options to better their chances after taking a match; they already won which puts them at an advantage and they should be tested against a rematch / counter-pick. The unlock rule obviously doesn't give the winner any advantage seeing that they must choose variation first but why give them the option if ultimately there could still be a counter-pick / double counter-pick scenario. It's the same argument made for pro lock / unlock; both can result in a counter-pick / double counter-pick so none is better than the other, It will only change the degree of difficulty for the winner (if any) and we don't even know what that degree of difficulty could possibly be since the MKX release date timer is still ticking away.

If we notice that the character lock results in HARD counter-picks (when MKX is released), the rules should to be altered and the unlock option is taken into effect. However, if the counter-picks are actually not too bad / manageable, then guess what, we're playing a solid fighting game after all. This will encourage people to grind out match-ups and become character / variation loyalists / specialists who overcome a disadvantage match-up instead of retreating to a better option right off the bat.

 

[Konqrr]

Whatever we choose MUST remain simple or we will look like the biggest scrub fool community even worse than we were before MK9.

We can't have shit like the loser has to alert the winner or a judge if they are going to change characters. WHAT THE FUCK?!?! That is ridiculous!

Either winner can change variation if opponent changes character OR variation lock. Those are the ONLY options for us to move forward. That being said, let's wait until we actually PLAY THE DAMN GAME before we make any sort of decision.

Remember, this game will have players from ALL other fighting games playing it. So if they come into our game with some fucktard rules, they will not stay. For those of you who say "fuck them, let them leave", you are a cancer to the community.

 

[Eddy Wang]

This thread is fun, i need more popcorns

 

[KRYS9984]

Whatever we choose MUST remain simple or we will look like the biggest scrub fool community even worse than we were before MK9.

We can't have shit like the loser has to alert the winner or a judge if they are going to change characters. WHAT THE FUCK?!?! That is ridiculous!

Either winner can change variation if opponent changes character OR variation lock. Those are the ONLY options for us to move forward. That being said, let's wait until we actually PLAY THE DAMN GAME before we make any sort of decision.

Remember, this game will have players from ALL other fighting games playing it. So if they come into our game with some fucktard rules, they will not stay. For those of you who say "fuck them, let them leave", you are a cancer to the community.

I agree,

I could just see players from other communities utterly confused as to what is going on (in terms of rules).

They might do something incorrect (choose a character and back out after the winner selects a variation) which will prompt their opponent or judge to fill them in. They can either enforce the rule on the newcomer (which lacks courtesy) or let it slide since they're not aware (which lacks rule enforcement).

Everyone knows what character lock is all about so there are no mysteries to this; right off the bat is seems like the most basic option to keep (this new game) running smoothly and later on people can be eased into the transition of modified rules (if necessary).

You can't fix what's not broken (referring to the game not being released yet) so (imho) MKX should be played with standard / traditional rules of character (variation) lock and see where it takes us. If it results in a hard counter-pick fest that makes the game unpleasant to play / watch, fix it. If not, we'll be concentrating on match-up knowledge / experience and growing as a community with the game.

 

[KH_Seraph]

I feel like winners should be able to change variations if they do so before the loser is able to select their character/variation.

 

[RoboCop]

Whatever we choose MUST remain simple or we will look like the biggest scrub fool community even worse than we were before MK9.

We can't have shit like the loser has to alert the winner or a judge if they are going to change characters. WHAT THE FUCK?!?! That is ridiculous!

Either winner can change variation if opponent changes character OR variation lock. Those are the ONLY options for us to move forward. That being said, let's wait until we actually PLAY THE DAMN GAME before we make any sort of decision.

Remember, this game will have players from ALL other fighting games playing it. So if they come into our game with some fucktard rules, they will not stay. For those of you who say "fuck them, let them leave", you are a cancer to the community.

While I do agree with you, it seems like the only compromise available is that the winner has to choose before the loser picks their character, and the only way to make that happen is through communication. It's a hassle, but the primary concern of pro-lock players seems to be that the winner can somehow counterpick the loser. I don't know any other way to do it, unless the winner can choose after the loser picks their character, which isn't something the pro-lock characters are going to be OK with.

 

[Konqrr]

I feel like winners should be able to change variations if they do so before the loser is able to select their character/variation.

While I do agree with you, it seems like the only compromise available is that the winner has to choose before the loser picks their character, and the only way to make that happen is through communication. It's a hassle, but the primary concern of pro-lock players seems to be that the winner can somehow counterpick the loser. I don't know any other way to do it, unless the winner can choose after the loser picks their character, which isn't something the pro-lock characters are going to be OK with.

Think about how that sounds... The loser waits for the winner to anticipate what they will pick and guess counter it to which the loser says haha and does a hard counter based on what the winner picks.

this system favors bad players and is a terrible idea.

Let's face it, there will never be a consensus and we should save time and our (my) sanity and just lock the winner completely. /thread

 

[haketh]

Amazing how this scene cannot handle things so many other scenes have been able to like stage bannings, variation unlock, & countless others. Just fucking hilarious.

 

[Fractured_Shadow]

Reptiles variations actually make a huge difference, his core move kit is still in tact, but he gains advantages in certain match ups depending on the variation, so yeah even him.

How could you possibly know that at this point lol.

 

[Doombawkz]

I asked if you attended tournaments because my original response to Venom was about how resetting a bracket in a grand finals set is obviously a new set and both players can pick whoever they want. If you don't attend tournaments or follow them then you wouldn't know that. So for you to even respond to me in the way you did tells me you either don't know what happens at tournaments, or didn't understand what I was responding to and took offense. Either way... WTF?!

Gweedo attends tourneys. He went to the waffle with me and indi at FR.

 

[KH_Seraph]

@Konqrr Whatever system becomes the standard, there is no way it will be as convoluted and confusing as the smash rulesets...Playing at some local tournies and reading up on what they have for the rules in Evo, they talk about different stage bans at the various round level, and how the winner can change their character completely as long as they do so before the loser decides on/picks their character...IDK, I don't think it will ever really get that bad but allowing variation switches seems interesting from a mindgame standpoint, although I'd be fine if there was a character lock too and loser can change characters/variations.

 

[Vilén]

So, why does it have to be "winner can change variation IF loser changes character?" That creates a clusterfuck. Precedent for this system dictates that you should be able to change your variation between matches regardless of whether or not you win or lose.

 

[Gengar]

Far as i know SF doesnt even let you change your ultra and UMvC doesnt even let you change assits. Variations are far bigger a change than an ultra or assist selection. full lock regardless of what opponent does. there can be no other way.

 

[Konqrr]

Far as i know SF doesnt even let you change your ultra and UMvC doesnt even let you change assits. Variations are far bigger a change than an ultra or assist selection. full lock regardless of what opponent does. there can be no other way.

Winner can change ultra if opponent changes character in SF4

So, why does it have to be "winner can change variation IF loser changes character?" That creates a clusterfuck. Precedent for this system dictates that you should be able to change your variation between matches regardless of whether or not you win or lose.

No... winner should only be able to change variation only if opponent changes character. No changes otherwise.

 

[Rip Torn]

How could you possibly know that at this point lol.

Some of his other posts have led me to believe he has actually played the game.

 

[westtrade]

“Towards the end of the last Mortal Kombat, we’d been talking about fighting tournaments such as EVO,” says Boon. “Those who participate and attend tournaments are always talking about matchups;

“To make it a competitive match, you have to change characters. But people don’t want to stop playing with their favorite characters. They would say, ‘I love Sub-Zero and I don’t want to play with anyone except Sub-Zero.’ So we said, ‘Let’s make a version of Sub-Zero that plays differently and has different strategies.’ And that escalated to making different versions for every character. That ultimately led to each character having three play styles."

-From the gamesradar.com article with Ed Boon

After reading that article and reading the comments from colt, it seems like the dev's wanted people to be able to change characters after any match to get the best gameplay out of both players. Maybe the best coarse of action is not to make any rules at this time and let people use skill to determine who is the best player.

 

[Prinz]

After reading that article and reading the comments from colt, it seems like the dev's wanted people to be able to change characters after any match to get the best gameplay out of both players. Maybe the best coarse of action is not to make any rules at this time and let people use skill to determine who is the best player.

Error or refference? I say error, because that skin is awful.

 

[NYCj360]

How could you possibly know that at this point lol.

Some of his other posts have led me to believe he has actually played the game.

 

[SaltShaker]

Amazing how this scene cannot handle things so many other scenes have been able to like stage bannings, variation unlock, & countless others. Just fucking hilarious.

 

[Charybdis]

The ESL has it down as character and variation lock for the winner, free pick for the loser. So I guess that's that solved for the time being at least

 

[solidsnake]

The ESL has it down as character and variation lock for the winner, free pick for the loser. So I guess that's that solved for the time being at least

Bad decision

 

[Juggs]

The ESL has it down as character and variation lock for the winner, free pick for the loser. So I guess that's that solved for the time being at least

Smart choice, glad they went with this rule.

 

[Compbros]

The ESL has it down as character and variation lock for the winner, free pick for the loser. So I guess that's that solved for the time being at least

It's solved for ESL but not the community as a whole and rules do change. Adding to OP when I get the chance.

Smart choice, glad they went with this rule.

Whenever I see things like this it makes me think that people believe what we're proposing is the dumb choice and I really don't like that. Full lock is no smarter or better than unlock until we see how both work in tournaments.