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Juicy IV: Which reportedly 3-7 or worse match ups are a bill?

coolwhip

Noob
At the highest possible level of play when everyones defense stops sucking, Batman is a zoning character. He can't really do much up close besides forcing you to block for long periods of time, which results in you losing like 10% chip damage if you block for 30 seconds. But he just wasted all his meter and trait to make you block for that 30 seconds, now he's fucked.

At the highest possible level of play, if Batman can zone you out it could possibly be a 5-5 or losing matchup for you. If he can't zone you out then it's either a 5-5 or losing matchup for Batman, most likely losing
Yeah, Batman needs to be played lame and just react to what the opponent does and punish. In match-ups where he can get a life lead, get his bats out and chill, he can be very irritating. For example, even though he doesn't beat WW, if he gets a life lead on her, it can be pretty annoying for her since he can lame her out with batarangs, throw up batarangs to prevent her from air dashing in, while covering his ass with bats. The moment she gets overaggressive you catch her jumping or dashing in with bats. He can be very frustrating to play against when he does that, especially late in a match since he can deal plenty of chip and the opponent might get too worked up and feels he has to get in because he's down on life, thus making mistakes in the process. The problem is there are match-ups where you can't play like that.

But, if people are still complaining about 30 second blockstrings then they're still stuck in early 2014. People are probably respecting him way too much if they're allowing that anyway. Trait bats have no block stun. Now granted, it's tricky and quite risky to press buttons after you block them, but acting like bats are suddenly Zod's trait when they're released is just false. Even though you beat him, I noticed Max was actually doing a good job at anti-airing you right after blocking bats, or hitting you after blocking bats right before your b3 connected. But yeah, it's risky as hell, since if you mess up the timing you get combo'd. I'm not downplaying Batman's trait of all things, since it's pretty ridiculous, but offensively, it isn't a free way to get in, pressure, jump-in, etc... Not against someone who knows what he's doing anyway.
 
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cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
So your the type of person to think every person in the world is wrong besides you? Gotcha

How about these people grinded the Batman matchup with me and many other Batmans to get their number based off of experience
two things:
1. I think Batman losing to Flash is a bill (as @HoneyBee ) suggests and I think GL could be 5-5.
2. Even if we accept you MU chart, there is no way that Batman is outside of the top 10.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
BTW I don't think Catwoman vs. Batman as 5-5 is finalized. That is not a MU number I feel confident in.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
He's a really good player. This would be a blow-up no matter what character he thinks is cool and dedicates time to.

I like how I'm getting put on blast so hard. I've never done the "dude these are my MU #'s. They're absolutely true because I'm the best."

How about,
"I think bane has 4 losing MU's and 2 of them (Batman, Sinestro) I admitted I could have been wrong (in just about every post), I let Biohazard regulate the Flash MU because he LIVES with Honeybee, and Deg bodied me with Zatanna and insisited that she wins, I have little to no say in that."



Ouch.
One thing I thought was interesting watching KIT was how much Ducky guessed right in Sinestro's vortex. I don't think he ever actually gussed wrong. I'm not sure if he's able to see/fuzzy it, or if Wound wasn't doing something to make it more ambiguous.

So I'm not sure if Ducky is doing better against Wound with Bane because he knows Wound so well, or if he knows Sinestro so well. If it's because he knows Wound so well then blowing up the Bane players is a little harsh. If it's because he knows Sinestro so well then it's justified.
 

coolwhip

Noob
Also let's be clear, Batman being a bill in no way means he's bad. He's pretty damn good, lol. It's just that until relatively recently, some genuinely believed he's in the top 5 discussion when he probably isn't even a top 10 character. That is bill material right there.
 

coolwhip

Noob
This is an amazing line. People need to take this into consideration in every MU number.

Just a question, does this mean that Batman's jump-in mixups after MB grapple are easily blocked?
Do you mean his 50/50 after straight grapple? I mean, it's a 50/50. Mid screen, you can slightly make an informed guess based on the distance separating Batman from you before he jumps in, but he can still mess you up if he changes timing or does J3 instead of J2, so it's pretty hard to block based on anything other than guessing. In the corner, it's just impossible. You have to make a guess. Because after MB grapple, he does NJ2 then he does cross over J2 or cross over j3, except the J3 doesn't actually cross up even though the animation of the jump looks like it's crossing up. It's a true 50/50.
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
Batman losing to Flash has always been a bill.
Not at all. I'll tell you why right now:

Flash outdamages Batman
Flash outfootsies Batman
Flash's d2 anti-airs Batman j2 99% of the time
Flash has better mixups then Batman
Flash has better oki then Batman
Flash punishes Batman's slide ON HIT
Flash can shake through all of Batman's zoning and isn't even forced to get in if he doesn't want to

If the Flash player doesn't have the defense of Wound Cowboy and can actually block all of Batman's mixups and react to f3 and trait cancel gimmicks, the matchup is extremely hard for Batman. If the Flash player gets the first hit of the match, and has a 60% life lead on Batman (meaning Batman has 40% of his white bar and Flash has 100% of his white bar still) what is stopping the Flash player from sitting across the stage shaking through all Batman's zoning until time runs out and he wins?

Think about it. If Flash has the life lead and has good defense, he can anti air ALL of Batman's j2's with his d2, block all of Batman's mixups on reaction, and shake through all of Batman's batarangs. How is Batman supposed to make that comeback? It's virtually impossible. Flash can just sit there and block and d2 and shake until the time runs out. Not to mention he outfootsies Batman and if he lands a mixups while playing defensive he takes another 60% out again from Batman
 

coolwhip

Noob
2. Even if we accept you MU chart, there is no way that Batman is outside of the top 10.
Very few still agree with this though. I mean, I guess it's debatable that he might be in the bottom end of the top 10 but why is he incontestably better than Deathstroke or Doomsday, for example?
 

Pnut

Mouth of the Illuminati
Also let's be clear, Batman being a bill in no way means he's bad. He's pretty damn good, lol. It's just that until relatively recently, some genuinely believed he's in the top 5 discussion when he probably isn't even a top 10 character. That is bill material right there.
No one is saying he's top 5. Wound did when he was emo but now he is much more reasonable. But saying he isn't top 10 or even in the conversation is a HUGE indication for downplaying. For the record, Superman is probably a winning match for Batman and King's personal struggles are revealed in this chart.
 

coolwhip

Noob
No one is saying he's top 5. Wound did when he was emo but now he is much more reasonable. But saying he isn't top 10 or even in the conversation is a HUGE indication for downplaying. For the record, Superman is probably a winning match for Batman and King's personal struggles are revealed in this chart.
Always believed Bats-Superman was 5-5. MIT is saying Superman probably beats him though, so it's worth pondering.

I think Batman is 11th so I never suggested he isn't in the top 10 conversation (I mean, if you're one spot away from the top 10 then you're in the conversation). But Wound is saying "there is no way Batman isn't top 10" when I really don't see how Batman is just undeniably better than other characters in the lower half of the top 10.

Nobody can deny that Batman has been significantly up-played since the October 2013 patch. Wound is still pretty much the only person who thinks as highly of Batman now as he did back then.
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
No one is saying he's top 5. Wound did when he was emo but now he is much more reasonable. But saying he isn't top 10 or even in the conversation is a HUGE indication for downplaying. For the record, Superman is probably a winning match for Batman and King's personal struggles are revealed in this chart.
He's not even in the discussion for top 10 if that matchup chart is correct that everyone agrees on
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
No I saw all the down playing. I didnt feel like acknowledging it.
There was no downplaying at all. I talked about how I beat everyone with Batman, he's not a bad character, and then I showed a bunch of matchups that everyone agrees on. 0 downplaying
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
One thing I thought was interesting watching KIT was how much Ducky guessed right in Sinestro's vortex. I don't think he ever actually gussed wrong. I'm not sure if he's able to see/fuzzy it, or if Wound wasn't doing something to make it more ambiguous.

So I'm not sure if Ducky is doing better against Wound with Bane because he knows Wound so well, or if he knows Sinestro so well. If it's because he knows Wound so well then blowing up the Bane players is a little harsh. If it's because he knows Sinestro so well then it's justified.
He mostly just guessed right. I hit him a few times with it, but I mostly went for the full screen ender to build trait. It's also worth mentioning that it can be really hard to cross up Raven because of her hitbox and walkspeed.
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
BTW I don't think Catwoman vs. Batman as 5-5 is finalized. That is not a MU number I feel confident in.
It's definitely not Batman's favor I'll tell you that. You have a meterless vortex on me when you knock me down, you have real mixups on me I have fake mixups on you. If it wasn't for my trait you would literally destroy me in footsies. Batman's zoning is good against Catwoman don't get me wrong but I highly doubt it's enough to warrant 6-4 Batman
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
One thing I thought was interesting watching KIT was how much Ducky guessed right in Sinestro's vortex. I don't think he ever actually gussed wrong. I'm not sure if he's able to see/fuzzy it, or if Wound wasn't doing something to make it more ambiguous.

So I'm not sure if Ducky is doing better against Wound with Bane because he knows Wound so well, or if he knows Sinestro so well. If it's because he knows Wound so well then blowing up the Bane players is a little harsh. If it's because he knows Sinestro so well then it's justified.
I just guessed correctly everytime. I know Sinestro extremely well. And it's not just wound I'm doing well against with Bañe. I played whiteboi and bodied him 6-0 with Bañe and made him curl up into a ball in the corner. I also beat pig in a set with my bane and have done well against other top players and they've told me my Bañe is the hardest. I'm sorry if what im saying bothers people but this is the truth. I don't want to sugar coat shit and say these guys are playing Bañe at the highest level when they're not.
 

coolwhip

Noob
All things being even, I can see Batman-Flash being 5-5. In other words, if Batman isn't down on life, yeah, he can play lame with batarangs and bats, and even though Flash can speed dodge, he ultimately isn't getting in when doing so.

But in the end, Flash will get in, and while it can be claimed it's a life lead based match-up, Flash just has an easier time getting a significant life lead, since he hits far harder and destroys Batman on knockdown. Then Batman is forced to get in to make up the life deficit, and well, good luck with that. D2 is a problem and no matter what people say, Batman not being able to rely on J2 is a pretty big game changer so he can't even pressure as consistently or open Flash up.

We've discussed this match-up in depth recently so I don't want to rehash those points but I do think it's slight advantage Flash based on damage output and oki.
 

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
two things:
1. I think Batman losing to Flash is a bill (as @HoneyBee ) suggests and I think GL could be 5-5.
2. Even if we accept you MU chart, there is no way that Batman is outside of the top 10.
What are you talking about in 2.?

If we accept that matchup chart, then Batman is guaranteed NOT in the top 10 lol. That is not a top tier matchup chart. If we accept that matchup chart, then we would be accepting that the characters at the end of top 1o such as Wonder Woman, Doomsday, Deathstroke and Superman all have superior matchup charts
 
No one is saying he's top 5. Wound did when he was emo but now he is much more reasonable. But saying he isn't top 10 or even in the conversation is a HUGE indication for downplaying. For the record, Superman is probably a winning match for Batman and King's personal struggles are revealed in this chart.
No way bats beats supes lmao, and I am willing to debate this without a doubt. Also how is batman better than DS is the question? I would like a discussion on that.