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The Argument Against Variation Lock

Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
MAPUSA said:
ok, then tell me if char variation is kinda picking a complete different char? :)
in sf4 you can choose ultras like you want, even if you win. thats not counter picking :)
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In MK they don't have ultras, they add more than one special moves or unique normals in the already existing move set, some of those are pretty game changing.
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
coolwhip said:
Have you played the game? Do you know how big (or small) an impact will variations have? We don't know, so making an analogy to other games might not be entirely accurate. For example, Sub-Zero being able to put a clone on a screen may well change match-ups considerably. Likewise, Raiden being able to teleport, might change match-ups considerably. I'd argue this is more significant than changing ultra, but then again, I haven't played the game nor do I know how it works, which is why I'm arguing for character and variation lock and we'll revisit the debate a few months into the game once we start forming a clearer idea about how variations work.

People acting like this is some straightforward issue amuse me. IF it's a straightforward issue, then I'd argue it's only because we should start with a variation lock for the winner.
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I feel like "doing character lock till we know more about variations" is the same as "banning Interactables till we know more about injustice."

We didn't ban Interactables when injustice came out so I don't think we should limit the variation piece of MKX. It's new to us so let's not limit it out the gate. In my mind, the only way to fully understand variations is to play with tournament standards that allow more use of them.

Can we also state the facts? These are things we all know to be true (or should know anyway)
-- The only thing we know that changes between variations is specials. This means that walk speed, dash speed, dash distance, run speed, normals, jump arch, air normals and interactable use will all be the same. In injustice these things all make HUGE differences in gameplay. Monumental differences. Multi hitting normals break armor, jumps can get you out of frame traps, air normals have different priority, AAs are a huge game changer (see Aquaman for questions). Specials are only half the issue.

If the winner has to stay in both character AND variation then the loser can counter in 2 different ways. One is the choice of standardized move sets (normals, jump, etc as mentioned above) and the second way is in specials. Because of this extra way to counter pick I feel the rules should be as follows.

Match 1:
Players pick characters and double blind pick variations.

Match 2: (the loser has 2 options)
1) Loser can choose to pick another variation of their first character while winner is locked into the same character and variation.
2) If the loser decides to pick another character, then the winner is now unlocked fom their first variation but is still locked into their character until they lose. Blind pick of variation is still required.

Match 3 and on follow the same rules as above.

If blind pick does not exist, then the winner must always pick their character first. Once the loser picks their character, the winner always picks their variation first.

Stages are always random.
 
Shark Tank

Shark Tank

I don't actually play these games
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
I feel like "doing character lock till we know more about variations" is the same as "banning Interactables till we know more about injustice."

We didn't ban Interactables when injustice came out so I don't think we should limit the variation piece of MKX. It's new to us so let's not limit it out the gate. In my mind, the only way to fully understand variations is to play with tournament standards that allow more use of them.

Can we also state the facts? These are things we all know to be true (or should know anyway)
-- The only thing we know that changes between variations is specials. This means that walk speed, dash speed, dash distance, run speed, normals, jump arch, air normals and interactable use will all be the same. In injustice these things all make HUGE differences in gameplay. Monumental differences. Multi hitting normals break armor, jumps can get you out of frame traps, air normals have different priority, AAs are a huge game changer (see Aquaman for questions). Specials are only half the issue.

If the winner has to stay in both character AND variation then the loser can counter in 2 different ways. One is the choice of standardized move sets (normals, jump, etc as mentioned above) and the second way is in specials. Because of this extra way to counter pick I feel the rules should be as follows.

Match 1:
Players pick characters and double blind pick variations.

Match 2: (the loser has 2 options)
1) Loser can choose to pick another variation of their first character while winner is locked into the same character and variation.
2) If the loser decides to pick another character, then the winner is now unlocked fom their first variation but is still locked into their character until they lose. Blind pick of variation is still required.

Match 3 and on follow the same rules as above.

If blind pick does not exist, then the winner must always pick their character first. Once the loser picks their character, the winner always picks their variation first.

Stages are always random.
Click to expand...

Some normals and strings are added/changed.
 
Mst

Mst

Apprentice
First Round - Stage Random => Each Person picks his Character and variation blindly
Second Round - Looser Picks Stage or changes Character/Variation in case he switches to another Character/Variation Map is Random again Winner stays with the same as the first round
repeat
repeat
....

This is what i would like to see, i still think each variation should be treated as a differnt Character but this might be a bit early to decide yet.
 
AK L0rdoftheFLY

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Shark Tank said:
Some examples for reference

Kano's cutthroat variation basically knife strings.

One of scorpions variations adds swords on his air normals.

Khan war god add that weapon and he gets a long range low sweep with it.

Did you see the MKX stream?
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I just skimmed the YouTube videos after.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
If so I am a dumbass

Can anyone else confirm this?
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So far this is stated correct but its not a drastical add, Scorpion loses his flame uppercut in Ninjutsu but gains a upslash but the animation is still the same only with a sword in hand, Devorah's venomous strings have extended range.

What it does adds or gets removed is that some of these variations have more ranged normals, other characters not so much:

Scorp:: Ninjutsu
Sub:: Cryomancer
D'vorah - Venomous
Kotal - War God


Character who don't have extended ranged normals but gain ranged moves in variations:
Kano (extended zoning)
Raiden Master of Storms (Extended Zoning)
Cassie Spec Ops (extended Zoning)
Quan Warlock (portals)

yet all these characters do have the same strings in every variation, it the animation change in some of them due weapons in most of cases, and is not the entire string.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
I feel like "doing character lock till we know more about variations" is the same as "banning Interactables till we know more about injustice."

We didn't ban Interactables when injustice came out so I don't think we should limit the variation piece of MKX. It's new to us so let's not limit it out the gate. In my mind, the only way to fully understand variations is to play with tournament standards that allow more use of them.
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I don't know about this analogy, man. Injustice was made with interactables in mind. As in, the default state of Injustice is with interactables on. Characters were given tools and balanced accordingly (I'm sorry about Nightwing, lol). It would have made no sense to start with interactables off since we didn't know how they would affect things. In other words, if we had kept interactables off, there was no way we could tell how they would impact the game if they were on. However, by allowing them, we kinda got an idea about how things might work if they weren't there, by virtue of seeing how they operated.

In MKX, nobody's arguing for one variation per character. Nobody's saying "ban variations" which is why I can't get behind your analogy. I'm simply saying, let's wait till we see how variations work before deciding whether we should allow the winner to change variations or not. If variations turn out not to have a huge effect, you don't risk anything by not allowing the winner to change. However, if they turn out to have a big impact, then you risk counterpicking and counter-variation fests.


AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
Can we also state the facts? These are things we all know to be true (or should know anyway)
-- The only thing we know that changes between variations is specials. This means that walk speed, dash speed, dash distance, run speed, normals, jump arch, air normals and interactable use will all be the same. In injustice these things all make HUGE differences in gameplay. Monumental differences. Multi hitting normals break armor, jumps can get you out of frame traps, air normals have different priority, AAs are a huge game changer (see Aquaman for questions). Specials are only half the issue.

.
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Again, I don't agree with comparing MKX to Injustice. They're two separate games. We can't base an argument because of how things would work had this applied to Injustice. Moreover, some of these special moves ie (Ice clone) are game-changers. It might not change walk speeds, jump archs or range on normals, but it sure as hell makes you think twice before dashing in, jumping in, or throwing a long ranged normal. So in a way, that special move is actually impacting the things you mentioned. Plus, one of Sub-Zero's variations gives him a long range sword or something, which gives him increased range on many of his moves, and that sure changes the footsie game.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
d3v said:
Dunno why there's a big debate over this. Other games with similar gameplay change character variations (arcanas in Arcana Heart, moon phases in Melty Blood, ISMs in SF Alpha 3, Grooves in CvS2), let the winner pick their variation. Stop acting like what MKX has is any different from this, it isn't.
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And stop acting like you actually know whether MKX is or isn't different. Have you played the game? Do you know how it works? Do you know just how much variations impact things? Have you seen the full roster and every variation? Have you played different match-ups with different variations and determined just how significant variations are? No, you haven't.
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
This is exactly why I think we should go with no variation change for characters until we learn more about the game. Clearly, we still don't know much about the game since we don't understand how each variation works (as evidenced by many posts above). This applies to literally all of us, especially since not even half the roster has been announced, so it's not like we know about every variation in the game and can base our judgment on what we've seen so far.

Be level-headed guys. Let's take the safer approach, wait and see, and then act accordingly.

I personally do not care what other games have done since this could well be different. If it turns out that it's not that different, then we can change things to the way other games do it. No harm done.
 
Paul the Octopus

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
coolwhip said:
In MKX, nobody's arguing for one variation per character. Nobody's saying "ban variations" which is why I can't get behind your analogy. I'm simply saying, let's wait till we see how variations work before deciding whether we should allow the winner to change variations or not. If variations turn out not to have a huge effect, you don't risk anything by not allowing the winner to change. However, if they turn out to have a big impact, then you risk counterpicking and counter-variation fests.
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Can you please explain why you think my proposal increases the chance of counterpick-fests compare to locking variations?

As I mentioned in the OP and my reply to "tony at home," I think this actually mitigates the risk, provided the selection order is what I described in the OP.

I could be missing it so would be glad to hear your thoughts. If you give an example, please assume the first game is double blind character and variation selection (I didn't say that explicitly in the OP bc I thought that was obvious/not contentious)
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
trufenix said:
@Paul the Octopus
Should Ryu mains be allowed to switch to Evil Ryu after winning? Why/Why Not? Please show your work.
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No because not all chars have variations, except for Ryu and maybe some others, so the Ryu players would have an advantage if they are allowed to pick variations while the rest of the cast have none of it.
 
RM xSTRANGERx

RM xSTRANGERx

Mortal
AK L0rdoftheFLY said:
Yup now I remember why I left RM.

Too many people making douchie conclusions

This is an extremely healthy thread and this needs to be discussed and decided on no matter which way it ends up. You are adding nothing but negativity here
Click to expand...

It's a joke.. That's the first thing. Lol.

And.. Nothing I did made you leave RM. So.. That's invalid.

My comment was directed towards some things people said in here that go against things from past tourney rules. Like how this stuff encourages counter picking. And them not understanding why locks should even be valid.

But apparently you take things to heart? I didn't disrespect anyone. I didn't say anything out of line. Stop being a baby, Dick. :p

My thing with this game is.. Some characters get Armor on their variations. Some et zoning, some get reduced damage on chip. It almost seems to be that every character has a rushdown and a zoning variation. If you don't lock the variation with the character after a win, it's pointless.

Say.. You're Kano. And he's got his variation with the knife tosses. And you win against Raiden's storm lord. But then the loser switches to Displaces to get around the zoning. You should be able to pick Commando with Kano after a win? So every time raiden teleports, you've got a shot at parrying? In my mind.. That defeats the purpose of any lock at all. Sorry for stating my opinion, Fly. Lol. But that's what this site is for. For people to state opinions. And if I don't agree with someone's opinion, or of they don't agree with mine. That's just the way the story goes. That's life.
 
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