Do Vortex Characters need Their vortex?

[Maasik]

I'm fine with vortexes and think everyone should have one to some extent. That being said I also think risk/reward should be a factor. KF's vortex is a perfect example, hers requires meter for the overhead so if you guess right she loses a bar. The only one I have a real problem with is Batgirl's. I think both the overhead and low options should be unsafe and punishable, because hers requires no meter and she can do it anywhere on the screen. This on top of having great corner damage, interactable countering, and anti-zoning. It's fine to have all these tools but at least make it have a risk/reward factor.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I'm fine with vortexes and think everyone should have one to some extent. That being said I also think risk/reward should be a factor. KF's vortex is a perfect example, hers requires meter for the overhead so if you guess right she loses a bar. The only one I have a real problem with is Batgirl's. I think both the overhead and low options should be unsafe and punishable, because hers requires no meter and she can do it anywhere on the screen. This on top of having great corner damage, interactable countering, and anti-zoning. It's fine to have all these tools but at least make it have a risk/reward factor.

Lol, I don't think you understand KF's vortex. She doesn't waste a bar unless it hits. The meter is spent at the very end with MB freeze grab.

b2u3 is already punishable. If b12 were punishable she'd have no way to get in. She already has t-rex arms on all her other normals, and you want to take her only half decent footsie tool and make it punishable? I'd be ok if it was punishable and had GL b1 range.

 

[Maasik]

Lol, I don't think you understand KF's vortex. She doesn't waste a bar unless it hits. The meter is spent at the very end with MB freeze grab.

b2u3 is already punishable. If b12 were punishable she'd have no way to get in. She already has t-rex arms on all her other normals, and you want to take her only half decent footsie tool and make it punishable? I'd be ok if it was punishable and had GL b1 range.

I thought KF's overhead option was the MB F3.. so maybe I am wrong about her's.

I disagree about Batgirl though. I understand her range on normals isn't great but the low option is part of her vortex which is an integral part of playing Batgirl, usually the main reason one plays her. That's why I feel it should be punishable, if you guess correctly you should be rewarded. Her risk/reward would be they guess right and you're punished, or they guess wrong and they're put through the vortex again for another guess or if they're in the corner you get big damage. This seems totally fair to me, especially since her forward dash is pretty good, while still having an advancing, + on block special: cartwheel coupled with her teleport. Sure she wouldn't fair well in the neutral but I think that'd be fair given her vortex on top of other strengths I listed before.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I thought KF's overhead option was the MB F3.. so maybe I am wrong about her's.

I disagree about Batgirl though. I understand her range on normals isn't great but the low option is part of her vortex which is an integral part of playing Batgirl, usually the main reason one plays her. That's why I feel it should be punishable, if you guess correctly you should be rewarded. Her risk/reward would be they guess right and you're punished, or they guess wrong and they're put through the vortex again for another guess or if they're in the corner you get big damage. This seems totally fair to me, especially since her forward dash is pretty good, while still having an advancing, + on block special: cartwheel coupled with her teleport. Sure she wouldn't fair well in the neutral but I think that'd be fair given her vortex on top of other strengths I listed before.

KF's overhead is regular f3. Why add armour when they can't possibly punish you?

As for BG, I said I'd be fine if b12 was negative, just give b1 the range and speed of GL's b1. Her cartwheel is very punishable; all options. Calling it "an advancing + on block special" is disingenuous to say the least. Not only would she not fair well in the neutral, she would not be able to compete at all. She'd be a rush down character with no way to get in and no way to hit hard once she got in. How would she compete against SM, MMH, BM, KF, WW, Sinestro, Zatanna, GL, AM? Since you don't play BG I really don't think you understand how bad she would be if the low was punishable on block.

 

[DarkPage]

Exactly. What would be scary about KF without her meter dependent vortex? Also, it is quite execution heavy to get the full potential vortex experience.

Batgirl and WoWo can take a seat…

Oh cmon. KF still would have mix ups. and would still be making you hold down from half screen.
"like dont move, i swear to gawd ill slide"

 

[Maasik]

KF's overhead is regular f3. Why add armour when they can't possibly punish you?

As for BG, I said I'd be fine if b12 was negative, just give b1 the range and speed of GL's b1. Her cartwheel is very punishable; all options. Calling it "an advancing + on block special" is disingenuous to say the least. Not only would she not fair well in the neutral, she would not be able to compete at all. She'd be a rush down character with no way to get in and no way to hit hard once she got in. How would she compete against SM, MMH, BM, KF, WW, Sinestro, Zatanna, GL, AM? Since you don't play BG I really don't think you understand how bad she would be if the low was punishable on block.

Ahh okay, I guess the MB F3 is just for damage then.

Apologies about cartwheel, I thought it wasn't punishable so I'll hold that lol. I still think Batgirl's B12 should be punishable though, rewarding players who guess correctly. Both her overhead and low options arent fuzzyable so I don't think B12 needs more speed, although giving it a bit more range would be a fair balance to making it punishable. I don't play any of the vortex characters so I'll admit I don't know as much about them as others, but the main point I'm trying to make is just that a vortex should have a risk/reward factor, especially those that already require no meter. Risk being getting punished on a correct guess and reward being putting the character back into another cycle of the vortex or going for bigger damage.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Ahh okay, I guess the MB F3 is just for damage then.

Apologies about cartwheel, I thought it wasn't punishable so I'll hold that lol. I still think Batgirl's B12 should be punishable though, rewarding players who guess correctly. Both her overhead and low options arent fuzzyable so I don't think B12 needs more speed, although giving it a bit more range would be a fair balance to making it punishable. I don't play any of the vortex characters so I'll admit I don't know as much about them as others, but the main point I'm trying to make is just that a vortex should have a risk/reward factor, especially those that already require no meter. Risk being getting punished on a correct guess and reward being putting the character back into another cycle of the vortex or going for bigger damage.

Scorpion in MK9 had a punishable vortex, look how that turned out lawl.

 

[shinobispectre]

Apparently Shazam has a vortex... It's one where you put yourself in a vortex of guessing the opponent's actions on wakeup.
IN MY OPINION
I don't really know how to format/say it. But hard knockdowns exist in fighting games, with Shazam's grabs ending in HKs a vortex situation is really a part of the character. His neutral game relies on gimmicks, taking risks, or just catching the opponent "sleeping". His positives include damage and... that's about it? He just seems to be jack of all trades and master of none. I say yes he does need it because the character just seemed to be designed around it. Otherwise the character just wakeup attacks or backdashes putting Shazam back into an unfavorable neutral game or getting zoned out. He does not have the tools to compensate if one were to get rid of hard knockdowns/vortex situations.

But I am talking about Shazam... so yeah no one cares.

In a game with heavy zoning characters and really messed up zoning "mixtures" like Zod or Black Adam, vortex seems necessary to counteract zoning and using interactables.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

omg what if frost had air daggers and flash freeze mb didnt require a mb!!!!

 

[Pan1cMode]

omg what if frost had air daggers and flash freeze mb didnt require a mb!!!!

Then she'd be top 5 easy.

 

[The_Furax]

I believe KF is not totally vortex dependent. Even no her vortex, she can have a great game. Her vortex option is just an additional tool.

 

[The_Furax]

omg what if frost had air daggers and flash freeze mb didnt require a mb!!!!

you forgot the iceberg should hit low too and no recovery frames and slide with armor..

 

[lm Tweakk]

You can't make pure rushdown viable in Injustice without some kind of vortex or similar BS.

This is because of pushblock, no comeback factor and the no round system which all favor zoners. Vortexes are the only way to balance this game.

Doomsday.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Doomsday.

Or similar BS. Doomsday has armour and earthshaker.

 

[RunwayMafia]

You do realise she has an inescapable reset right?

I don't see how you could think KF would be bad without her vortex but BG "doesn't need it". Without vortex; BG's meterless damage is meh, her neutral game is weak, her zoning is meh, she can't deal with up close pressure and she becomes just as meter dependent as (if not more than) KF.

Without vortex KF still has; decent oki setups, great meterless damage, great midscreen damage, amazing trait damage, 70%+ inescapable reset, nice corner game, meter dependancy doesn't change, has parry and fast normals to deal with up close pressure and, a strong neutral game with slide, daggers and b1.

Lol, I must ask, do you play Killer Frost?

 

[Pan1cMode]

Lol, I must ask, do you play Killer Frost?

Yes I do.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying KF would be fine without her vortex, I'm saying she depends on it less than BG does hers.

 

[Hades]

I hate being vortexed so much but after playing as superman for awhile the corner dive bomb otg is so much fun to do to people. Also i hate doing set ups just for someone to do a wake up into a combo/vortex...

 

[RunwayMafia]

Yes I do.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying KF would be fine without her vortex, I'm saying she depends on it less than BG does hers.

Let me preface this with a big groping hug, a little peck on the cheek, and that I genuinely love you…

You are a documented and classified Barbara Gordon downplayer… please take a seat!

 

[BartenderJeeves]

omg what if frost had air daggers and flash freeze mb didnt require a mb!!!!

Air daggers would be the shit and would look super swaggie

 

[THTB]

The answer is simple.

IAZB. Orbs. Demon Stance. IANB. Sinestro with trait. Aquaman.

The extremely powerful guessing games is retarded because the general ability to control the pace of the game from the neutral from some characters is also retarded.

 

[PND OmegaK]

Does Bane need level 3 damage reduction and stupid armour?

Yes.

 

[bishbash]

I think Zatanna needs hers but IMO the only reason people aren't complaining is because nobody uses her. She has ridiculous vortex and reset options, however she's meter dependent and she requires reasonable execution to get decent damage.

 

[Eldriken]

No comeback factor in this game? Um, Doomsday would really like to have a word with some folks about that. >_> I'm sure there are others as well, but I couldn't care less about their comeback potential.

 

[@MylesWright_]

You do realise she has an inescapable reset right?

I don't see how you could think KF would be bad without her vortex but BG "doesn't need it". Without vortex; BG's meterless damage is meh, her neutral game is weak, her zoning is meh, she can't deal with up close pressure and she becomes just as meter dependent as (if not more than) KF.

Without vortex KF still has; decent oki setups, great meterless damage, great midscreen damage, amazing trait damage, 70%+ inescapable reset, nice corner game, meter dependancy doesn't change, has parry and fast normals to deal with up close pressure and, a strong neutral game with slide, daggers and b1.

How are you even attempting to argue that Batgirl has more difficulties in this game then Killer Frost and stop saying you use her because you clearly do not because no KF player would be saying this stuff, you're just some Batgirl downplayer

 

[Pan1cMode]

How are you even attempting to argue that Batgirl has more difficulties in this game then Killer Frost and stop saying you use her because you clearly do not because no KF player would be saying this stuff, you're just some Batgirl downplayer

Lol, rage much?

I'm not saying KF is a better character than BG at all. Actually, I think quite the opposite. I've argued for a while both pre and post 1.6 patch saying BG was better than KF and was told I was wrong for the longest time.

What I'm saying is if you were to remove both character's vortexes, KF would be the more solid character. KF depends less on her vortex than BG does.