The Top Tier Narrative and Superman

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

@EGP Wonder_Chef
Harley gets 52% miscreen. J2 b22 cartwheel b3 j2 f23 silly slide 12 play doctor mb

I know

 

[Youphemism]

I really can't think of a single character that can just "shut him down"

It may "seem" like Chef is up-playing...... but he's not.

People only tend to see a characters weakness when they play them..... so they know how to cover it in certain MU's and what not.

He can KILL YOU off one good setup.
His projectiles aren't really punishable at all. Heat Zap is probably the 2nd most obnoxious projectile invented in a game. No matter how slow it starts up... if he gets one out there... what are you gonna do?

His trait gives him TWO power ups, one that no one else has at all.... and the added ability to actually NEGATE a few characters traits altogether.

He's freaking good. He just seems very "easy" to autopilot with, and that is what gets people in trouble.

I'm not saying he's not good or top tier, I myself can only name 7 characters better than him. I would've said Martian shuts him down but I never really see that match so I'm not going to assume anything.

I don't think he's upplaying but him having good corner damage isn't unique as other characters do have almost equal if not equal corner damage.

People should be learning from the mains of that character then to exploit their holes instead of just crying out that's it's "OP" or "broke" or "needs nerfed" or whatever, too many people on here don't think to go into the lab and find a way around it. Smh

He CAN, but most of the time won't. Hypotheticals are irrelevant, it's the same for all characters who can "kill you in one" like Joker in the corner, Flash, Batgirl, anyone

Heat Zap isn't obnoxious, you can duck and jump over it easily...

Sinestros trait gives him two power ups too, as does Banes, Harleys actually gives her one of three as does Grundy's, and that's just of the top of my head. Zatanna, Martian, you could even argue Batman, a lot of peoples traits do more than one thing

He IS good, he IS still kind of easy to pick up too but the nerf to his f2 doesn't make him as autopilot as before, you're correct.

Again, my opinion

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I don't think he's upplaying but him having good corner damage isn't unique as other characters do have almost equal if not equal corner damage.

Yeah like 3 characters lol...

He CAN, but most of the time won't. Hypotheticals are irrelevant, it's the same for all characters who can "kill you in one" like Joker in the corner, Flash, Batgirl, anyone

I've seen it happen a million times, it isn't uncommon at all.

Heat Zap isn't obnoxious, you can duck and jump over it easily...

It builds a ton of meter and shuts down a lot of people's game. A lot of chars have a REALLY hard timing jumping over it, so they're forced to take chip from sweeping laser constantly.

 

[Youphemism]

Yeah like 3 characters lol...

Still not just Supes

I've seen it happen a million times, it isn't uncommon at all.

Maybe because you see Superman all the time lol

It builds a ton of meter and shuts down a lot of people's game. A lot of chars have a REALLY hard timing jumping over it, so they're forced to take chip from sweeping laser constantly.

I'm not saying it's a bad move, I'm just saying you can avoid it by jumping/ducking. I'm not disagreeing either it doesn't hinder some character's games but it's not particularly obnoxious imo

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Still not just Supes

Remember we were comparing their HIGHEST POSSIBLE DAMAGE in the corner to his LOWEST!

 

[RNLDRGN]

Who still goes around saying that Superman is bad?

I think everyone pretty much unanimously agrees he is really good, but not top 3.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Heat Zap isn't obnoxious, you can duck and jump over it easily...

Sinestros trait gives him two power ups too, as does Banes, Harleys actually gives her one of three as does Grundy's, and that's just of the top of my head. Zatanna, Martian, you could even argue Batman, a lot of peoples traits do more than one thing

Heat Zap is SUPER obnoxious. Your solution is a vague example of how to deal with all projectiles. It is the properties of Heat Zap that make it just crazy.

and no... Superman's trait gives him two completely different type of power-ups. He gets a damage boost. He gets armor break. It doesn't matter HOW you use it, you always get both of those bonuses in one button push. I also can't think of another characters trait that NULLIFIES other traits. I'm not talking just the armor break... i'm talking .... makes their trait just go away.
I think Bane is the only other one that gets two distinct properties off of one button push.

 

[Youphemism]

Heat Zap is SUPER obnoxious. Your solution is a vague example of how to deal with all projectiles. It is the properties of Heat Zap that make it just crazy.

and no... Superman's trait gives him two completely different type of power-ups. He gets a damage boost. He gets armor break. It doesn't matter HOW you use it, you always get both of those bonuses in one button push. I also can't think of another characters trait that NULLIFIES other traits. I'm not talking just the armor break... i'm talking .... makes their trait just go away.
I think Bane is the only other one that gets two distinct properties off of one button push.

There are other projectiles you can't jump or duck that are more obnoxious, that's my point

Sinestro gets a trait that allows him to get combos he usually can't AND breaks armour AND hinders other characters trying to get in AND makes moves safe. So there's that...

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

There are other projectiles you can't jump or duck that are more obnoxious, that's my point

Sinestro gets a trait that allows him to get combos he usually can't AND breaks armour AND hinders other characters trying to get in AND makes moves safe. So there's that...

You're right.

Sinestro's trait allows him to make unsafe strings safe. It doesn't break all armor or nullify traits. Grundy gives zero shits as does Doomsday. But yes he fits the bill as well.

I'd like you to name me a projectile you can't jump that has the properties that heat zap does. I'm pretty sure you're referring to like.... Raven's grab thingy maybe? That thing allows a free dash for her opponent when you block it...... Heat Zap allows Superman to do whatever he wants when he SHOOTS it.

 

[AZ MotherBrain]

He's still great. Still top five in my opinion.

 

[Youphemism]

You're right.

Sinestro's trait allows him to make unsafe strings safe. It doesn't break all armor or nullify traits. Grundy gives zero shits as does Doomsday. But yes he fits the bill as well.

I'd like you to name me a projectile you can't jump that has the properties that heat zap does. I'm pretty sure you're referring to like.... Raven's grab thingy maybe? That thing allows a free dash for her opponent when you block it...... Heat Zap allows Superman to do whatever he wants when he SHOOTS it.

If you use all the shots it nullifies Banes

Zatannas rings? Ares mb fireball? (it's hard/awkward to jump anyway) And doing Ravens fireball into grab isn't dashable in between

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If you use all the shots it nullifies Banes

Zatannas rings? Ares mb fireball? (it's hard/awkward to jump anyway) And doing Ravens fireball into grab isn't dashable in between

c'mon now...... you can jump both of those

I meant ravens grab period. Nothing else.

 

[Cage Redfield]

This thread has so much nonsense in it, it hurts the insides of my fuckin skull

 

[Compbros]

He's still great. Still top five in my opinion.

Top 7 for me: MMH, Batgirl, Zod, WoWo, Flash, Aquaman above him.

 

[DarkPage]

Speaking as a ww main who decided to pick up superman gawd it feels nice to have good projectiles. And to be able to zone and break armor.
I've learn to appreciate having an option from long range other than demigoddess.
He's got the complete game while just not having the better mix ups than ww.

 

[Fromundaman]

All this thread is doing is showing me how much we are sleeping on certain other characters...

What's max damage in the corner for Joker? With proof by notation or it didn't happen

Without resets, I think it's around 56% no meter off of the block infinite.

That said every combo in the corner ends in an unblockable reset (Sometimes an OTG one) so yeah...

Well to begin, nobody gets those off of as much damage as he does. NOBODY.

Also nobody gets a free interactable off of it like he does. If you include that his corner damage becomes over 70%.

Joker, Batgirl, and Harley at the very least can get free corner interactibles at the end of 50-ish % corner combos.

Batgirl and Harley can even loop them back into themselves on some stages.

He CAN, but most of the time won't. Hypotheticals are irrelevant, it's the same for all characters who can "kill you in one" like Joker in the corner, Flash, Batgirl, anyone

What do you mean? I see these characters murder people in the corner all of the time. Those are characters you throw pushblocks and clash at just to get out of the corner.

 

[Solid]

Superman rewards brave players IMO. When people learn to simply float/walk forward with Superman and make people fear the F23 is when his game opens up. I simply float/walk forward into and around F23 range and some people just panic and do what comes naturally which is to jump or press their D1 and eat either a D2 AA or get whiff punished by F23 into all of Supes set ups and/or into the corner where death is waiting.

 

[DarksydeDash]

The fact that everyone is basically splitting hairs with a character considered top (WW) means alot.

You're literally splitting hairs......... Superman is still really freaking good.

There are still air dash mixups off strings that NO ONE does using Sajams little air dash trick.

f2~trait instant air dash 1

enjoy your free damage.

I actually do do that..

 

[Youphemism]

What do you mean? I see these characters murder people in the corner all of the time. Those are characters you throw pushblocks and clash at just to get out of the corner.

Joker and Batgirl mostly rely on looped setups in the corner to kill opponents, ie short kind of damaging combos into a setup that can be blocked, whereas when Superman is doing his high damage in the corner it's one combo

 

[DarksydeDash]

Are you saying his full screen plus on block 5% chip lasers aren't good because you can't get a free f2 after them? I'm confused.


Yes of course if you make a wrong read you get punished... that's how fighting games work...

And he can do way more then just F23 breath loops midscreen. How about F2 xx Trait? If they're just walking back that opens them up to lows like B1 or Downforward 3. What about his 22 string? etc.


Yes but if someone backdashes your laser, all that happens is they end up further away and you build meter. If that isn't effective zoning then I don't know what is.


I don't think you understand how his zoning works at all. Yes if your opponent throws out one of those things then it can stuff the startup of your laser. But you WANT them to start trying that. Every single one of those tools can be jumped, and when you see them whiff it you can punish with an air laser.

Don't just go throwing out a bunch of random air lasers, that's not going to work at all. You use it as a tool to punish your opponent for trying to punish your zoning. And if you make the wrong read and jump, but they don't throw anything out, you can just land and you are safe.



Sure his purely 50/50s are unsafe, but the damage they do in the corner is fuckin insane.

And no he does not have to put in a lot of work to get them into the corner. Any combo that he does carries them over half of the stage length, and all of his stuff pushes back on block very well. Also if you ever hit a MB laser BOOM hella wall carry.

So am I missing something he can do from blocked mb lasers from full screen? I don't appreciate you bashing me for pointing out flaws of his zoning. I do know how to zone. I don't just shoot lasers all day, I read my opponent. I will fake whiff normals into lasers or Use breath if I predict a dash from mid screen so it sends them across the screen. I will also back dash upon hits from certain distances and against certain matchups, I'll jump to fake air lasers. If my opponent, is just going to sit there and do nothing I will shoot heat zaps all day till I have full meter and when I have full bar I will mb heat vision, get my chip and repeat. If I get to hit you I will do spend that meter to push you into that corner. If I was fighting Shazzam, I would jump back 2 and punch him back into the corner for waking up with a teleport.

 

[Rude]

This thread is a hot mess.

 

[_xFriction]

This thread is a hot mess.

i like nice, hot messes

 

[DarksydeDash]

Ya was gonna say, you can't do this with the car on Wayne manor I don't think

For Wayne manor, you mb rising grab so the camera shifts off the screen. Sure it is another bar but it pretty much guarantees your opponent can't wakeup.

 

[Phosferrax]

So am I missing something he can do from blocked mb lasers from full screen? I don't appreciate you bashing me for pointing out flaws of his zoning.

What's flawed about a mid-hitting projectile that is plus on block and does big chip damage?

 

[Youphemism]

What's flawed about a mid-hitting projectile that is plus on block and does big chip damage?

You can jump over it hahaha