The Top Tier Narrative and Superman

[GuamoKun]

Why do people keep saying Superman isn't "As good as people think?"

Well for one, you can still make dive punch cross up if they tech roll, as long as your timing is good. Slayer does it all the time, and hits me crossup when I tech roll.

Also even if it didn't, do people not realize that tech rolling and holding back opens you up for B1 xx MB Breath on wakeup? Shit is like free on people that think they can block high all day. @Awesomo does that against me and I'm like "you filthy slut da fuq you doing that for". He recently picked up Superman and does really well in his matches.

Anyway, those are far from his best tools. Best mobility in the game? Check. Best poke in the game? Check. Best Air to Air in the game? Check. Potentially best pressure in the game? Check. Amazing zoning? Check.

This is exactly like what happened in MK9 with Liu Kang, when everyone is like "lol hes ok but online hes like top5" and the majority of the Kang players are from SoCal and the ones who compete and travel do really well.

Now its Superman, who is undoubtedly better but also downplayed on such a level that it makes it look like he's been MURDERED by the patch. HE STILL HAS THE TREE AND THE DUMBELL TRAIT THING. It makes MMHs little phase HKD thing look like nothing.

why do people act like Superman died? He just went into a healing coma.

 

[Compbros]

Supes is, of course, high tier and easily a top 7 character, however:

Best mobility in the game? Check. Best poke in the game? Check. Best Air to Air in the game? Check. Potentially best pressure in the game? Check. Amazing zoning? Check.

Disagree, arguable, why do you say this, absolutely not, disagree.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Because he doesn't have safe offensive 50/50's, shitty lows and all you have to do is block low against him is the current thought. F23~trait can be poked out of or specialed out of (think flying bat from bg) Of course, this just means it is up the the Player to utilize his strengths to cover his weaknesses. Is he as good as he was pre-patch? No. Is he still a really good character? Yes.

His mobility is good but not the best, his poke is good but kinda short range, his j1 is good but nothing to scream about, his pressure is good but totally escapable and not really that frightening once you know what to do, his zoning not the best but not the worst.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

I think Superman is still high tier...but top tier? Not too sure.

 

[RM Truth]

I like how this OP is a direct quote from a status update from @EGP Wonder_Chef

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Supes is, of course, high tier and easily a top 7 character, however:




Disagree, arguable, why do you say this, absolutely not, disagree.

Because he doesn't have safe offensive 50/50's, shitty lows and all you have to do is block low against him is the current thought. F23~trait can be poked out of or specialed out of (think flying bat from bg) Of course, this just means it is up the the Player to utilize his strengths to cover his weaknesses. Is he as good as he was pre-patch? No. Is he still a really good character? Yes.

His mobility is good but not the best, his poke is good but kinda short range, his j1 is good but nothing to scream about, his pressure is good but totally escapable and not really that frightening once you know what to do, his zoning not the best but not the worst.

 

[GuamoKun]

Supes is, of course, high tier and easily a top 7 character, however:




Disagree, arguable, why do you say this, absolutely not, disagree.

Mobility isn't about just about dash speeds but also about how he can cover distance with specials and normals. Which leads to the point of how his f23 is like Kitana's f21 in steroids. His j1 has one of the best hitboxes of any air attack for air to airs, is extremely fast, essentially active for years, and has enough hitstun to combo.

His pressure is really good because even though the mixups aren't as plentiful, his pressure can go for a really long time and the fact that he is neutral instead of just positive on block after breath can bait things such as parries, mb f/b3s, pokes or standing normals. All these can be countered by any of superman's tools. It is the same principle as Sonya's cartwheel. It's -3 but the threat of EX cartwheel adds another layer of yomi that makes fighting her really difficult. the same concept applied with Superman but there's so many variables that can go wrong that it essentially makes it in his favor because most of his options have no risk outside scoop on block or whiffed lasers and even then you have to be scouting for those punishes.

His Zoning is really good in that you don't have to do it to get chip damage like Zatanna or Sinestro or space control like Raven, you do it to set the pace of the match. If Superman zones you have to play by that game, even Raven who outzones him has to play differently and watch for his zoning options if he decides to start his zoning game. His dominance is still at play at that point.

I like how this OP is a direct quote from a status update from @EGP Wonder_Chef

I sent these messages to him. @EGP Wonder_Chef always listens to me complain

 

[Compbros]

People feel Supes took such a big hit because every tool that made him a monster in the beginning was toned down: Ridiculous F2 took a hit, F2D1/Heat Zap scales hard so his corner damage to a big hit, breath took a hit, nonsense zoning took a hit.

 

[Gh0sty]

Potentially best pressure in the game? Check.

You did qualify the statement with "potentially", but I respectfully disagree. Like @NRF_xQUANTUMx alluded to, once you understand how deal with him his offence is very managable and escapable IMHO.

I still voted "yes" btw.

 

[juicepouch]

because people hear someone say something then go on to parrot it endlessly without doing their own homework on the matter, that's my guess

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

His mobility is good but not the best,

Who do you think has better mobility than him? His dashes are probably the best in the game, his walkspeed is great, his airdash is amazing, etc. I don't think any character stands up to his mobility.

his poke is good but kinda short range,

Are you serious?

his j1 is good but nothing to scream about,

It beats every other jump normal in the game air to air.

His pressure is good but totally escapable and not really that frightening once you know what to do,

His pressure is insane. He has a great option to counter every way that the opponent can escape, and he converts off of all of them. Every time Superman touches you, you have to make a guess as to how to get out eventually.

his zoning not the best but not the worst.

His zoning is great, it builds tons of meter and shuts down a ton of characters' games. Some chars (with low jump arcs) have to take a lot of chip to get in at all. The fact that he has an air projectile means he can go even in the zoning war with chars like Aquaman (since he can bait stuff by jumping over them)

 

[AlanC]

I don't think supes is top tier , he is supposed to be the "easy" character, he is suppose to be decent at everything but not excel at them

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

People feel Supes took such a big hit because every tool that made him a monster in the beginning was toned down: Ridiculous F2 took a hit,

Still one of the furthest reaching normals in the game, especially considering that nothing near that far is 8 frames or faster, except for itself.

F2D1/Heat Zap scales hard so his corner damage to a big hit,

Oh poor Superman only gets 55-70% for a bar in corner combos now =[ So weak!

breath took a hit,

Yeah so he can't nearly block infinite people anymore lol...

nonsense zoning took a hit.

There are almost no situations where you couldn't punish supes before but you can now.

 

[GuamoKun]

I don't think supes is top tier , he is supposed to be the "easy" character, he is suppose to be decent at everything but not excel at them

the fact that he's good at everything makes him a top tier.

Having no weaknesses is a lot better than being the best at one thing and being terrible at another.

 

[AlanC]

the fact that he's good at everything makes him a top tier.

Having no weaknesses is a lot better than being the best at one thing and being terrible at another.

There is a difference between being decent and being good at everything just look at mmh, a character that is good at everything and supes , a character who is just decent

 

[Compbros]

I gave reasons of why people would think Supes isn't high tier. It's not meant to be a complaining post but you seem to have taken as such as some of your post seems mocking. My bad if I'm reading that stuff wrong though. However:

Still one of the furthest reaching normals in the game, especially considering that nothing near that far is 8 frames or faster, except for itself.


Oh poor Superman only gets 55-70% for a bar in corner combos now =[ So weak!


Yeah so he can't nearly block infinite people anymore lol...


There are almost no situations where you couldn't punish supes before but you can now.

I agree, the hitbox is what took a hit whereas before it was stupid good.


Practical stuff is closer to 55 than 70, it's still good corner damage though it without a doubt took a big hit, that's not disputable.


Before the neutral patch wasn't it +1? I might be remember it wrong at this point but I think it took two hits, one that took it to +1 and one that made it neutral.


Hence it took a hit, which was the entire point of my post. All the "scary" stuff from Superman took a hit so people believe he's lower than he is.

 

[Phosferrax]

He has great mobility, good damage (massive in the corner), good range, good meter building, good zoning, great trait and 50/50's, good corner game. He is a great character.

Lots of people dropped him because he isn't braindead now, but the people that were good with him then are still good with him now.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Who do you think has better mobility than him? His dashes are probably the best in the game, his walkspeed is great, his airdash is amazing, etc. I don't think any character stands up to his mobility.

- I believe Martian has better mobility. I think Wonder Woman can stand up to his mobility as well, off the top of my head.

Are you serious?

-it has happened to me where I fell short of trying to counter poke. Of course I am not a top player so I'll concede that my spacing could use work.


It beats every other jump normal in the game air to air.

-green arrow j3 , bg and bm j2 as well as flash j1 and j2 have beaten me out. Catwoman as well all those have blown me up more than the opposite


His pressure is insane. He has a great option to counter every way that the opponent can escape, and he converts off of all of them. Every time Superman touches you, you have to make a guess as to how to get out eventually.

- I guess my pressure sucks then


His zoning is great, it builds tons of meter and shuts down a ton of characters' games. Some chars (with low jump arcs) have to take a lot of chip to get in at all. The fact that he has an air projectile means he can go even in the zoning war with chars like Aquaman (since he can bait stuff by jumping over them)

True they build a lot of meter. But people still find a way to get in.

My answers enclosed. I'll be the first to concede I'm no slayer or theo so it's just my opinion on the char

 

[Compbros]

BTW, I think WoWo has better mobility than Supes.

 

[Dirtylova]

because people hear someone say something then go on to parrot it endlessly without doing their own homework on the matter, that's my guess

Welcome to tym Keepo

 

[Youphemism]

Lemme break it down for you:

• Having one good corner thing doesn't make you top tier
• Everyone has good corner damage, again this doesn't make you top tier
• Superman doesn't have the best mobility or the best pressure. In the words of a certain nerfed character from another game- "No chance"
• I can't really comment on air-to-airs since I haven't looked into it myself but refer to Everlast's answer
• His zoning isn't "amazing" it's ok. Yes db3 does a lot of chip and is neutral on block but you can duck it/jump over it and eye lasers are punishable/negative

I by no means said anything about him not being good, he still has good damage and mixups and whatnot, but he's just not what he used to be. Then again I'm some 'random scrub' of course so if anything I've said here is wrong then please Supermains by all means explain why

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

My answers enclosed. I'll be the first to concede I'm no slayer or theo so it's just my opinion on the char

Superman's dashes are better than Martians, and his walk speed is waaaaaaay better. His air dash takes him further too. There's a certain thing that only Supes can punish because of how good his forward dash is (I hate witholding info but I promised I wouldn't tell anybody)

WoWo and Supes have almost the same exact walk and dash speed. I think they did that on purpose. If anyone is equal to Supes in mobility it's her, but she doesn't beat him in the department.

Arrow J3 and a few others can beat Supes J1 if they're done waaaaay preemptively, but otherwise his J1 beats everything in the game if done at the same time. (Except something like Catwoman J2 from max range I guess)

His F2's range + speed is only outdone by maybe GL's B1, which isn't nearly as good on block and doesn't catch jumpers at all (f23 does super well)

Yeah eventually people will get in, but that happens with all zoners. If there was a char that could with with ONLY zoning they would be pretty freaking broken.

 

[Compbros]

WoWo and Supes have almost the same exact walk and dash speed. I think they did that on purpose. If anyone is equal to Supes in mobility it's her, but she doesn't beat him in the department.

I think her airdash is better but that's about it, he dashes feel faster when I play her but I'm no authority on that.


Edit. This is very easy, Superman is high tier, he is not top tier.

 

[Pnut]

Superman is still good and is better than Wonder Woman lets be honest.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Having one good corner thing doesn't make you top tier

Agreed but there's way more than that.

Everyone has good corner damage, again this doesn't make you top tier

Name other characters that get 55% or higher in the corner for one bar off of any starter. 70% off of pretty much anything that isn't F23.

Superman doesn't have the best mobility or the best pressure. In the words of a certain nerfed character from another game- "No chance"

Okay again, who has better mobility, and who has better pressure than him, and why?

His zoning isn't "amazing" it's ok. Yes db3 does a lot of chip and is neutral on block but you can duck it/jump over it and eye lasers are punishable/negative

Even on block? haha that thing is like +20 on block or something crazy like that. And MB sweeping laser is never punishable, normal sweeping laser isn't punishable from most distances against almost all of the cast. You act like it being - makes it bad... that's normal... It's still a giant laser that he can do from anywhere that covers nearly the entire screen, which you can MB for tons of chip to make it plus on block. It also builds insane meter.