The Top Tier Narrative and Superman

[Hades]

The only problem with listing all these great things supes has is the thing that dictates his positioning on the tier list is also his match ups. Can someone give their superman match up numbers because even with all this pressure, 50-50s and zoning and oki im fairly sure he still loses a few match ups and doesnt absolutely destroy characters either.

 

[Phosferrax]

Genuine question, what 10 characters to people think are better than Superman?

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

No I'm saying f23 isn't as good as it was. There are other characters that do supes' job better. But the fact a simple jump gets your opponent to safety after working hard to get them there is ludicrous.

You can jump after MB venom. I work way harder than you do. Hold that and deal with the fact that your character is good.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

I wish GA had a real 50/50.
I wish GA had lows at all.
I wish d1 xx arrow, my super powerful 3% string wasn't pokeable.
I wish GA had an airdash/instant air dash/dive move that otgs/amazingly fast and useful backdash/fast advancing normals (compare Sups F2 to GA's F2).
I wish GA had a 6 frame poke that led to full combo without Frozen Arrow that's totally interruptable by jumps/MB B3/D1s.
I wish GA my J1 actually landed on crouching opponents and didn't have a tiny micro hitbox.
I wish GA had pressure that actually dealt damage, wasn't totally pokeable and had actual mix ups.
I wish GA had a projectile that left you plus a billion on block, that tracked the opponent, leave them full screen and also dealt 15% damage or whatever it is it deals.
I wish GA didn't have to wait half an hour to load an arrow in hopes of maybe landing a projectile that Sups gets for free, twice as much damage and much more advantage out of it.
I wish GA had Sups corner damage without stage gimmicks that people can wake up out of.
And I also wish there wasn't a campaign for the last year to try and convince us how GA was broken beyond belief, causing unnecessary nerf after nerf, and have the responsible people just delete the videos (and I quote Brady "can we stop pretending this character isn't good because he has a 44% unclashable super") and act like it never happened, or not log in since September 2013.

I still love him though, would play GA 1000x times more than Superman.

/thread

I said it was the current thought I didn't list it as a personal complaint though, I love playing him and I've never once blamed the char when I lose with him.

Edit: I must have been under a rock or something I don't recall an anti arrow campaign. One of my good friends @NRF_GHoST just picked him up and I'll be the first one to admit the guy has to work way harder to win than I do with him. Those wins are certainly earned.



But back to the discussion, I still voted yes. He's still high tier. I don't know where or how high because I don't care. I play based on my attachment to the char first and that's probably stupid in some cases but that's what's fun for me. I was a subzero main in mk9 and that was certainly no picnic but I loved the char and stuck with it

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

It doesn't matter if his lasers are positive, he is pushed to far back so the nerf of f2 makes it whiff.

Are you saying his full screen plus on block 5% chip lasers aren't good because you can't get a free f2 after them? I'm confused.

Also his f23 breath doesn't matter if you, dash forward, super punch, jump (why would you jump!?), etc. They are out of pressure and if you make the wrong read, its like being punished for pressuring!

Yes of course if you make a wrong read you get punished... that's how fighting games work...

And he can do way more then just F23 breath loops midscreen. How about F2 xx Trait? If they're just walking back that opens them up to lows like B1 or Downforward 3. What about his 22 string? etc.

His lasers are easily back dashed as well.

Yes but if someone backdashes your laser, all that happens is they end up further away and you build meter. If that isn't effective zoning then I don't know what is.

The startup of heat zap is easily beat by many things. Tiara, oro's rocket, black magic, from the deep, quickfire, etc. you can duck it as well. don't even get me started on air heat vision. if it whiffs Supes is in trouble. for god's sake, ares can jump over it (MB) teleport to the other side and punish it. Shazzam can actually jump over it too and hit with an atlas torpedo.

I don't think you understand how his zoning works at all. Yes if your opponent throws out one of those things then it can stuff the startup of your laser. But you WANT them to start trying that. Every single one of those tools can be jumped, and when you see them whiff it you can punish with an air laser.

Don't just go throwing out a bunch of random air lasers, that's not going to work at all. You use it as a tool to punish your opponent for trying to punish your zoning. And if you make the wrong read and jump, but they don't throw anything out, you can just land and you are safe.

His 50/50s are unsafe, his otgs are unsafe. He has put in a lot of work to get them into the corner.

Sure his purely 50/50s are unsafe, but the damage they do in the corner is fuckin insane.

And no he does not have to put in a lot of work to get them into the corner. Any combo that he does carries them over half of the stage length, and all of his stuff pushes back on block very well. Also if you ever hit a MB laser BOOM hella wall carry.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

I should point out that his flying punch is also a great spacing tool, not only to get in but to punish hasty dash ins and maintain distance (pseudo zoning?)

 

[Compbros]

Sure his purely 50/50s are unsafe, but the damage they do in the corner is fuckin insane.

Oh, noooooooooooo Chef, noooooooooo. His damage is not "insane", he's right in line with a lot of the cast when it comes to corner damage unless you get REALLY optimal stuff.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

Oh, noooooooooooo Chef, noooooooooo. His damage is not "insane", he's right in line with a lot of the cast when it comes to corner damage unless you get REALLY optimal stuff.

dive punch combo does like 65% how is that on par with the cast?

 

[LEGEND]

Oh, noooooooooooo Chef, noooooooooo. His damage is not "insane", he's right in line with a lot of the cast when it comes to corner damage unless you get REALLY optimal stuff.

54% into a guaranteed 50-50 and/or interractable is in no way "in line with the rest of the cast"

at the highest level of downplaying you could say that a few other characters can deal comparable damage or get the free interractable (usually at the cost of dropping damage from the combo). But no character gets both and a mix-up

Fuck this thread

 

[Tony at Home]

Supes is pretty much alongside Green Lantern in the category of "best you can make a character without making them stupid"

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The fact that everyone is basically splitting hairs with a character considered top (WW) means alot.

You're literally splitting hairs......... Superman is still really freaking good.

There are still air dash mixups off strings that NO ONE does using Sajams little air dash trick.

f2~trait instant air dash 1

enjoy your free damage.

 

[The Great One]

Oh shit are we gonna just ignore his super too? Out of the whole game there are like two other viable sipers (ww and GA) but seriously

Thoes that dont waste all their meter heatzapping. Can get a full screen %40+ unclashable super that leaves you standing.

It apperanly got nerfed but you can still full screen punish a imput error. Out of everyone in the cast was Superman the one they thought needed it?

 

[Compbros]

54% into a guaranteed 50-50 and/or interractable is in no way "in line with the rest of the cast"

at the highest level of downplaying you could say that a few other characters can deal comparable damage or get the free interractable (usually at the cost of dropping damage from the combo). But no character gets both and a mix-up

Fuck this thread

54 is absolutely "in line with the rest of the cast", the reset it extra and punishable if blocked correctly. Hell, a lot of the 50-50 can be negated by a tech roll. Are you disputing this? If so then why and if not then how am I downplaying?

dive punch combo does like 65% how is that on par with the cast?

If you hit it at the start of trait, yes, it does that much but, again, that's REALLY optimal. The more practical stuff is gonna net you around the 55~ mark with an option for a divebomb reset.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

54 is absolutely "in line with the rest of the cast", the reset it extra and punishable if blocked correctly. Hell, a lot of the 50-50 can be negated by a tech roll. Are you disputing this? If so then why and if not then how am I downplaying?





If you hit it at the start of trait, yes, it does that much but, again, that's REALLY optimal. The more practical stuff is gonna net you around the 55~ mark with an option for a divebomb reset.

It's over 60 if you start it with trait or use trait mid combo.

And we already explained in this thread that there are only like 3 chars that get that kind of corner damage, and most of them are very situational.

 

[REDRUM]

when the fight starts Superman cant jail you with a f23 breath string for free anymore now so he is complete ass-cheeks

 

[juicepouch]

Oh shit are we gonna just ignore his super too? Out of the whole game there are like two other viable sipers (ww and GA) but seriously

Thoes that dont waste all their meter heatzapping. Can get a full screen %40+ unclashable super that leaves you standing.

It apperanly got nerfed but you can still full screen punish a imput error. Out of everyone in the cast was Superman the one they thought needed it?

The only reason I ever play superman is to shoot lasers and then super people when they try and jump. Too good lol

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

The only reason I ever play superman is to shoot lasers and then super people when they try and jump. Too good lol

Or when a laser hits them combo into super from it =[

 

[RiBBz22]

Superman's corner damage is dumb. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[Compbros]

It's over 60 if you start it with trait or use trait mid combo.

And we already explained in this thread that there are only like 3 chars that get that kind of corner damage, and most of them are very situational.

Start with trait at the beginning of the combo and it's active throughout? Also, give me a sec, I'm gonna test some corner stuff with some characters.

 

[Youphemism]

And we already explained in this thread that there are only like 3 chars that get that kind of corner damage, and most of them are very situational.

3 CHARACTERS?! Oh Chef...Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, Flash, Solomon Grundy, Cyborg, Shazam, Sinestro, Bane (I'd assume), Lobo, and Harley off the top of my head all get damage round about 55% in the corner. Dependent on trait some characters get more

 

[Compbros]

3 CHARACTERS?! Oh Chef...Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, Flash, Solomon Grundy, Cyborg, Shazam, Sinestro, Bane (I'd assume), Lobo, and Harley off the top of my head all get damage round about 55% in the corner. Dependent on trait some characters get more

If this is correct then it saves me some work.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

3 CHARACTERS?! Oh Chef...Batgirl, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, Flash, Solomon Grundy, Cyborg, Shazam, Sinestro, Bane (I'd assume), Lobo, and Harley off the top of my head all get damage round about 55% in the corner. Dependent on trait some characters get more

Batgirl Yes, WoWo Yes but off a shitty starter, Hawkgirl for 2 bars off of a jump in yes (which will never happen), Flash Yes, Grundy gets like 70 everywhere, Cyborg for like 4 bars, Shazam no, Sinestro no, Bane I don't think so without Super and level 3 venom, Lobo gets 52% of a super slow starter, Harley gets like 50%.

So really only Batgirl, Flash, and Grundy.

EDIT: And Ares I guess? lol

EDIT EDIT: Plus like I said he can easily get over 60 which none of those get aside from Grundy because GRUNDY DON'T STOP.

 

[Youphemism]

Batgirl Yes, WoWo Yes but off a shitty starter, Hawkgirl for 2 bars off of a jump in yes (which will never happen), Flash Yes, Grundy gets like 70 everywhere, Cyborg for like 4 bars, Shazam no, Sinestro no, Bane I don't think so without Super and level 3 venom, Lobo gets 52% of a super slow starter, Harley gets like 50%.

So really only Batgirl, Flash, and Grundy.

EDIT: And Ares I guess? lol

It's not really shitty...you can do it off of another starter if it bothers you that much lol. Hawkgirl 1 bar iirc without jump in, Grundy needs nerfed , Sinestro yes with trait meterless, Bane yeah probably with venom, Lobo's standing 1 isn't super slow , HARLEY GETS LIKE 50 LOL she gets 55% for 1 meter iirc, Ares probably but who cares about him right? Lmao

 

[Qwark28]

Ares gets 55% in the corner.

METERLESS.

Get on my level.

Did somebody say...

Corner damage?

 

[Compbros]

The best Divebomb combo nets you 65~, with trait active at the start it's 63~, non jump in combos will net around 57~, 54~ with trait already active (AFAIK). Resets net Supes big damage but it's punishable if blocked and the 50-50 can be dampened with tech roll unless you D3/F2D13/B23 hard knockdown (which limits the setups).


BTW, I said "a lot of the cast" not "the rest of the cast".