MKII Tier List Discussion

[mortal_jason]

It's not the speed of the walk that matters; everybody walks forward much faster than anyone else can backpeddle in the game. The difference, and you'll also feel this if you play with Shang a lot, is that Baraka's walk frame takes forever, so you're vulnerable while you're walking forward or backward. With Cage this is less of an issue since his walk cycle is better and with the male ninjas it's no problem at all; they take baby steps and can cancel their walk cycle at will. In other words, a Sub-Zero player can walk forward at you and, should you try to take advantage by jumping in, he can cancel that walk cycle with an aaRH. If Baraka walks forward at you and you jump in on him, the Baraka player has little opportunity other than to hope his BL cancels his walk cycle quickly enough to avoid the damage.
.

The walk speed does matter though at least for me.
When you pick Shang who probably has the slowest walk, and then pick Baraka, you really notice the difference.
In a match where you have to chase your turtling opponent, this is important. Shang's sloth-paced walk isn't as much of an issue because he can just morph into other characters. But for Baraka, it is pretty important, because he wins by being aggressive.
The fast walk lets him get in close to opponents. I know what you're talking about as far as walk cycle, but it's worth it to have the fast walk IMO.

If you ever play an elite Baraka, you start to appreciate how tough he can be.
He has some of the best aggressive CQC in the game.
But he also has great defense (aaRH, blade fury, SUJP).

Baraka does way better vs most of the fighters in MK2 than Rep, Sub or Cage do.
Those are the 3 characters he is, to me, unarguably higher tiered than.
I think of Baraka and Scorpion as being tied in the 8th spot on the tier list. But I would never put Rep, Sub or Cage above Baraka.

 

[dudemcrude]

If you ever play an elite Baraka, you start to appreciate how tough he can be.
He has some of the best aggressive CQC in the game.
But he also has great defense (aaRH, blade fury, SUJP).

I've played some elite Barakas and I know exactly what you mean. Foozer1 always had a great Baraka, and a lot of the elite guys (particularly KensiDJ and real_talk718) gave me serious problems with the way they played Baraka, too. The problem there, though, is just a huge difference in skill; me being a good player, them being great or elite. When discussing the tier list, the point is to look at each character played to their absolute fullest; real_talk could squash my Mileena and Shang with his Sub if he really felt like it. It's just a matter of him being that much better than me and not of matter of Sub being really nasty. Same principle, IMO.

Baraka does way better vs most of the fighters in MK2 than Rep, Sub or Cage do.
Those are the 3 characters he is, to me, unarguably higher tiered than.
I think of Baraka and Scorpion as being tied in the 8th spot on the tier list. But I would never put Rep, Sub or Cage above Baraka.

Fair enough, man. You and I just disagree a little bit and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.

 

[mortal_jason]

I've played some elite Barakas and I know exactly what you mean. Foozer1 always had a great Baraka, and a lot of the elite guys (particularly KensiDJ and real_talk718) gave me serious problems with the way they played Baraka, too. The problem there, though, is just a huge difference in skill; me being a good player, them being great or elite. When discussing the tier list, the point is to look at each character played to their absolute fullest; real_talk could squash my Mileena and Shang with his Sub if he really felt like it. It's just a matter of him being that much better than me and not of matter of Sub being really nasty. Same principle, IMO.


Fair enough, man. You and I just disagree a little bit and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.

Yes I agree with all that...
Fair to say that Reptile, Cage, Sub, Baraka and Scorpion are all relatively close to one another on the tier.
Which makes arguing for or against them pretty entertaining.

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

who was "Mucho_Mango_Drink?" When I first started playing he was the nastiest Baraka around. He would play totally defensively, but if you got the health lead watch out! Because he would come walk you down and get it back everytime!

 

[Skylight1]

who was "Mucho_Mango_Drink?" When I first started playing he was the nastiest Baraka around. He would play totally defensively, but if you got the health lead watch out! Because he would come walk you down and get it back everytime!

Are you trying to *pathetically added* insult me because of my opinion? If so that is very unprofessional and very decondescending.

 

[mortal_jason]

Are you trying to *pathetically added* insult me because of my opinion? If so that is very unprofessional and very decondescending.

How was Icy Balls asking who "Much0_Mango_Drink" was, insulting you? I'm confused.
Anyway, no he wasn't insulting you, he was just asking whose alt that was.

 

[Skylight1]

I thought he was because he said something about playing defensively then all of a sudden playing offensively. And I described my way of playing Baraka in certain matchups the same way he said it.

 

[mortal_jason]

I thought he was because he said something about playing defensively then all of a sudden playing offensively. And I described my way of playing Baraka in certain matchups the same way he said it.

Na, he wasn't insulting you.

 

[Killphil]

This resurgence in mkII talk has me interested. I'll be ready to collect the bounty on some of your heads from that other thread.....in two years.

 

[mortal_jason]

Updated the individual character match-ups for the tier list....
Out of 10 matches, how 2 elite players would fare vs each other in no lag:

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/117620389350983897483/albums/5976821636842607569/5976821637506103298?pid=5976821637506103298&oid=117620389350983897483

 

[Konqrr]

@mortal_jason I'm surprised that you have Scorpion so low... I think he can hold his own very well against most of the cast. He's one of the few who can compete with the top 6 (sans Liu). I personally have him just under Shang at #7.

 

[mortal_jason]

@mortal_jason I'm surprised that you have Scorpion so low... I think he can hold his own very well against most of the cast. He's one of the few who can compete with the top 6 (sans Liu). I personally have him just under Shang at #7.

Scorpion gets destroyed by top tier....MASSIVELY.
Baraka and Raiden fare much better vs top tier, so that accounts for why they are higher tiered than him.
Scorp's jab and sweep are also worse than Baraka/Raiden.
It wasn't my intention to place him as #9- it's just how he ended up after all the scores were tallied.
But that is truly where I believe he belongs. Scorpion is a very beatable character.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Garbage. Tier lists don't matter. Experience with various tactics does though. Even "elite" players will lose mismatches if he/she is unfamiliar with an opponent. It's that simple. We haven't even reached a consensus on what is "elite." Lol, everybody has been playing in lag since 2010 or earlier.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

And lag has become a convenient excuse. Win and your opponent's cnxn was decent, playable. Lose and there was too much lag.Quit first or second match instead of playing 60 rounds to stop this.But you won't, will you? Because as long as you're winning, lag can be tolerated. When you lose though, look out!!!!!
'You' refers to everyone, not someone specific.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

The "Individual Character Match-ups Sheet" can be shredded with scissors and burned.

 

[mortal_jason]

And lag has become a convenient excuse. Win and your opponent's cnxn was decent, playable. Lose and there was too much lag.Quit first or second match instead of playing 60 rounds to stop this.But you won't, will you? Because as long as you're winning, lag can be tolerated. When you lose though, look out!!!!!
'You' refers to everyone, not someone specific.

In 2010-2012 I played LOTS of people in perfect connections. Billy, btbb, Caldwell, Insane_Nikidemos, scorpangel, kensidj, Foozer1, Truchez, you.... the list goes on and on.
Whether I was kicking ass or getting destroyed, I NEVER used lag as an excuse when it wasn't there.

I know how this game is supposed to play, and I damn well know when my inputs aren't coming out correctly because of lag.
I especially know lag is a huge factor when I 30 streak someone in a perfect connection, and then go 10-10 vs them in shitty lag.

And no, the individual character match ups cannot be "shredded and burned"- they give a good indication of balances/inbalances in the game.
Not to mention it's coming from me, one of the most knowledgeable MK2 players around.
There are certain things I'm open to discussing. But there are other things that I know FOR SURE, such as which matches are the hardest in MK2.

Anyway the point of posting the tier was to give an updated list, and hopefully get some more interest in MK2.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

You can believe as you like, but I think tier is an illusion that appears strongest when there is a greater skill difference. Put two very skilled players in a match and tier fades. The match is then decided by other factors... like knowing your opponents' playing style and ability to exploit error for example. Subzero can defeat Milenna 10/10 times if the player using Subzero knows, more often than not, what the Milenna player is going to do. Certain characters have more options or advantages than others, but that doesn't make them better. It means they must be handled differently. If tier suggests what characters have more options to use when fighting, or advantages in specific situations, then I'm fine with that. Does your Character match-up list show this? No. It doesn't. Or, maybe it does (though it's not explained) and tier is a reflection of what characters have more opportunities available to them compared to others. I'm not sure though as there is no description.

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Your tier list also assumes identical skill. This is impossible. One player is always better than the other. I'll conclude and say... Tier is a spectre that results from observable differences in player skill. Sometimes you can see it, sometimes not. But it's never really there to begin with.

 

[mortal_jason]

You can believe as you like, but I think tier is an illusion that appears strongest when there is a greater skill difference. Put two very skilled players in a match and tier fades. The match is then decided by other factors... like knowing your opponents' playing style and ability to exploit error for example. Subzero can defeat Milenna 10/10 times if the player using Subzero knows, more often than not, what the Milenna player is going to do. Certain characters have more options or advantages than others, but that doesn't make them better. It means they must be handled differently. If tier suggests what characters have more options to use when fighting, or advantages in specific situations, then I'm fine with that. Does your Character match-up list show this? No. It doesn't. Or, maybe it does (though it's not explained) and tier is a reflection of what characters have more opportunities available to them compared to others. I'm not sure though as there is no description.

Read my tier, it says in the upper left-hand corner, that it is based on 10 matches between 2 elite players. You can't categorize "elite"? Ok fair enough.
It's 10 matches of Caldwell vs me. Or myself vs myself/Caldwell vs Caldwell (in theory).

You are absolutely wrong that tier doesn't matter at the highest levels. When top tier is maxxed out, they will win at least 8 out of 10 vs another elite's bottom tier. My Cage is hella nasty, yet vs Scorpangel's Jax I will only win 2 out of 10 matches at best, despite outplaying him at least half of those matches.
It is just too unbalanced.
When Caldwell and I tested Mileena vs Scorpion, 10 matches with each character, our Mileenas won 9-1 vs the other's Scorpions.

Lastly, there is no way in hell, anyone's Sub-Zero is ever going to win 10 out of 10 matches vs a Mileena of Insane_Niki or I's level.
Absolutely not. I was generous on the tier list and gave Sub 2 of 10 matches vs her. That is a VERY easy match for an elite Mileena.
I haven't lost to Sub-Zero with Mileena in 2 years. And I've played a lot of elite Subs in that time.

LOL I think you're just trying to make for discussion by saying something so silly. Surely you know the game better than to make an outrageous claim like that. Or maybe you really do have to be an elite player to fully grasp the tier concept?
This is why I miss Caldwell being around- he would be choking on his beer laughing so hard at someone saying an elite Sub could beat an elite Mileena 10-0!

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

How would the best Scorpions do against your Milenna or Mike's? How would someone with a better Cage than you do against Scorpangel's Jax? Just curious. Because what does it say about tier if someone defeats your Milenna 5/10 times with Scorpion or Scorpangel's Jax 5/10 times with Cage?Also, how can you outplay someone and lose?I think we'd be better off making our own personal charts to show what characters we perform with in a situation best rather than saying one character is the best for a given situation. An elite player might be more successful using Reptile instead of Kung Lao against an elite Liu Kang even though Reptile is rated lower than Lao. In this case, the elite player effectively changed Reptile's rank. This is not an uncommon occurrence.

 

[Sub0's-Icy-Balls]

How would the best Scorpions do against your Milenna or Mike's? How would someone with a better Cage than you do against Scorpangel's Jax? Just curious. Because what does it say about tier if someone defeats your Milenna 5/10 times with Scorpion or Scorpangel's Jax 5/10 times with Cage?Also, how can you outplay someone and lose?I think we'd be better off making our own personal charts to show what characters we perform with in a situation best rather than saying one character is the best for a given situation. An elite player might be more successful using Reptile instead of Kung Lao against an elite Liu Kang even though Reptile is rated lower than Lao. In this case, the elite player effectively changed Reptile's rank. This is not an uncommon occurrence.

Tier / Match-up's mean nothing huh? I'll bet you $100 you can't beat my Shang with Sub 1 match out of 50. And I'll play it the exact same way every time, and I'll tell you how I will play it before we start. Match up's are HUGE in MK2.
Jason is 100% correct, his Cage is very VERY difficult to beat, and I've played him a ton of times so I know what he's up to for the most part, and I have a much better chance of winning when I pick Jax than I do when I pick low tier. And his Mileena vs my Sub! Never going to happen, she has WAY too many options to whoop on poor Sub! Jason's sisters Mileena is another story though! I can take that bitch out no prob : )

 

[Dyzvhtynzal]

Lol, I'll take that bet. ogmk2. do you have it? if not, i'll still play you on mkak. say when. I'm sure you've chosen lower-tiered characters over higher tier characters because you thought you had a better chance. since you have this means you've found fault with the established model on some level.

i think the problem with creating tier lists is that you can always argue that a character isn't being manipulated properly. if Subzero can win 1/10 then he can win 10/10 if used correctly. so can every other character. since we can never have identical skill either, we can always say the better player won the match regardless of character selected.

would it be wrong to say that if 1 character is better than another the character that is worse should lose every time? If not, why not?

would it be right to say that a tier list cannot exist because you'd need two perfect players that would never make a mistake? since any move by either can be countered, would any perfect player even move?

 

[mortal_jason]

How would the best Scorpions do against your Milenna or Mike's? How would someone with a better Cage than you do against Scorpangel's Jax? Just curious. Because what does it say about tier if someone defeats your Milenna 5/10 times with Scorpion or Scorpangel's Jax 5/10 times with Cage?Also, how can you outplay someone and lose?I think we'd be better off making our own personal charts to show what characters we perform with in a situation best rather than saying one character is the best for a given situation. An elite player might be more successful using Reptile instead of Kung Lao against an elite Liu Kang even though Reptile is rated lower than Lao. In this case, the elite player effectively changed Reptile's rank. This is not an uncommon occurrence.

Did you read my last post? Coz I explained how Mike used Scorpion vs my Mileena and he lost 1-9.
Then I used Scorpion vs his Mileena and I lost 1-9.
Mike has arguably the greatest Scorpion of alltime, so what does that tell you?

There is very little room for improvement with my Cage. I do as much as can be done vs Jax.
I challenge anybody's Cage to win more than 2 out of 10 vs Scorpangel's Jax.

Many times in MK2 you can outplay your opponent and still lose.
Scenario: You dodge all Mileena's attacks with Reptile and hit her 10 times with Acid Spit/Slides.
Then she lands one roll in a corner and does 75% damage on you with a massive corner combo.

 

[mortal_jason]

Tier / Match-up's mean nothing huh? I'll bet you $100 you can't beat my Shang with Sub 1 match out of 50. And I'll play it the exact same way every time, and I'll tell you how I will play it before we start. Match up's are HUGE in MK2.
Jason is 100% correct, his Cage is very VERY difficult to beat, and I've played him a ton of times so I know what he's up to for the most part, and I have a much better chance of winning when I pick Jax than I do when I pick low tier. And his Mileena vs my Sub! Never going to happen, she has WAY too many options to whoop on poor Sub! Jason's sisters Mileena is another story though! I can take that bitch out no prob : )

Why are you saying Shang will beat Sub 50-0?
That's not too terrible of a match for Sub. He still gets pummeled but it's not a 50-0 kinda match.

And hey now, my sister took your Sub out in a tournament using Mileena!
Whenever people on ps3 ask if she's any good at MK2, I tell them she beat you in a tournament so she's not bad

 

[mortal_jason]

i think the problem with creating tier lists is that you can always argue that a character isn't being manipulated properly. if Subzero can win 1/10 then he can win 10/10 if used correctly. so can every other character. since we can never have identical skill either, we can always say the better player won the match regardless of character selected.

would it be wrong to say that if 1 character is better than another the character that is worse should lose every time? If not, why not?

would it be right to say that a tier list cannot exist because you'd need two perfect players that would never make a mistake? since any move by either can be countered, would any perfect player even move?

No, Sub-Zero at his best vs Mileena/Jax at their best CANNOT win anywhere near 10 out of 10.
It is virtually impossible.
Thus the point of a tier list, and why MK2 is very unbalanced.

I think it IS fair to say that the worse character should lose every time, at least in the really unbalanced match-ups like Scorp vs Liu, Mil vs Rep, etc.
If the worse character wins that match, then obviously the player using top tier made LOTS of mistakes.

Basically this:

Bottom tier has to play a perfect match vs elite top tier to have a chance at winning.
Top tier can win even if they don't play that well.
But if top tier plays a perfect match, they will win 99.9% of the time anyway.
That's why when you use Mileena vs bottom tier, the pressure is ALL on you.
You have nothing to gain because she should never lose to low tier.
And if you lose it's just laughable!

Yes any move can be countered, but that takes great timing and anticipation.
For example, the window of time is very small to jump kick Jax out of his Ground Pound.
When you see 2 elite players battle, that's as close as you're gonna get to "perfect players".
Anyway, Mike and I doing the 10 set each of Scorpion vs Mileena should be pretty good proof for you.