Match-up Discussion Ares match up discussion 1.06

[4x4lo8o]

How do you niggas fight Catwoman

I have no idea. I have a ton of experience in that match up, and I do sort of alright most of the time, but I still don't really know what Ares is actually supposed to do in that match up. Zoning sort of works, but she can evade or cat dash through everything and Ares doesn't have a good answer for her j2.
I usually try to play a sort of mid range zoning game, where you're close enough that it's hard for her to react to your projectiles but not in range of her whips, and just walk her to the corner. but it's risky because that put you really close to her j2 range and once she lands a jump in she can do a mix up and backdash out and there's not a lot you can do about it. If you can get her in the corner you're golden

 

[ryublaze]

I have no idea. I have a ton of experience in that match up, and I do sort of alright most of the time, but I still don't really know what Ares is actually supposed to do in that match up. Zoning sort of works, but she can evade or cat dash through everything and Ares doesn't have a good answer for her j2.
I usually try to play a sort of mid range zoning game, where you're close enough that it's hard for her to react to your projectiles but not in range of her whips, and just walk her to the corner. but it's risky because that put you really close to her j2 range and once she lands a jump in she can do a mix up and backdash out and there's not a lot you can do about it. If you can get her in the corner you're golden

MB Cat dash is lame cuz you can't zone her and if you teleport she'll come back and hit you. Her j2 is also lame cuz Ares is so slow and has no good anti-airs. How does he win this MU 6-4 according to this MU chart?

 

[4x4lo8o]

MB Cat dash is lame cuz you can't zone her and if you teleport she'll come back and hit you. Her j2 is also lame cuz Ares is so slow and has no good anti-airs. How does he win this MU 6-4 according to this MU chart?

Match up chart is old and was optimistic right after the patch. I think Ares loses 4-6.

If you mb teleport and mb Catdashes you can block it and punish. You have to try to zone but you have to be super careful. If she's baiting stuff so she can catdash you can use invis to throw her off.
I think if you do far behind teleport and she does mb catdash it'll whiff. I think.

If she misspaces j2 you can d2 it, but it's situational. You basically have to play really patient and careful and blow her up when she gets sloppy and go ham once you get her in the corner

 

[Hellbringer]

I always said catwoman is a bad mu
when she has meter, you basically have to wait for her to make a mistake. Her b3 avoids projectiles too from certain distance. You can't really zone unless she has no meter. She can dash trough projectiles on reaction from mid/fullscreen
The only thing i feel like i can do is just find a opportunity to try and get in with mb teleport, and try baiting her catdash while invisible like 4x4 said.

 

[4x4lo8o]

I updated the mu number in the op and moved the old list into the second post(so we can laugh at in the future).

Most of the number still feel pretty fuzzy to me, I'm not really dead set on any of them.

Martian Manhunter is really terrible. He can pretty much just spam overhead teleport and Ares has to work his ass off and take risks to stop him.

If he does instant air overhead teleport Ares cannot block it as a cross up to punish. Either you don't get crossed up and you take the hit or you block it as a cross up but still end up in front of him. Even if you do successfully block it as a cross up, the best punishes I've found are 123~fireball for 14% or d1~d4, j1, b13 for 23%.

Ares also cannot use mb b3 to punish overhead teleport. The hit box on b3 is poor enough that the armor will take the hit and the b3 will whiff. You can use mb f3, but this takes away the option select where if you react too slow or he does mid teleport you just end up blocking, and occasionally it has a similar problem where the armor takes the hit and the moves whiffs. Even if you do land the f3 you're probably getting 32 or 33% out of that(plus you spent a bar and took 4% damage) which is less than he gets from oh teleport on hit.

The post-OH teleport game is a bit better for Ares. B13 actually beats out his traited s3, his mb b3, and push. However and hit it pushes him fullscreen and Ares options for checking him if back dashes or jumps back aren't nearly as good. Just stopping him from jumping back into oh teleport again can be a nightmare.

Basically the risk reward for throwing out random overhead teleports is pretty horribly skewed in MMH's favor. Ares is going to be working his ass off to stop MMH from teleporting, and the amount of energy and mental focus required for Ares to stop MMH from teleporting whenever he feels like it leaves Ares very vulnerable to all the other horseshit MMH is going to throw at him.

On top of how good his teleport is in the neutral game, it also wrecks your ability to zone. He can teleport on reaction to any of your projectiles and blow you up. In addition he can do it on reaction to your teleport and blow you up. Invis is completely useless as well, he can teleport completely safely on it.

There's a bunch more and I'm not done grinding the match up yet, but I'm already getting salty just thinking about it. Basically Ares is stuck try to walk in with his shitty mobility and even when you get things aren't good. God forbid you have to fight this character a stage like watch tower with respawning interactable that he can throw constantly.

This match up is starting to remind me of pre-patch Superman, both in how bad it is and how Ares has the shittiest of shitty options to deal with even his most basic tools and is even lacking option that are 'universal'. I'm almost to the point where I consider success against MMH to be not rage quitting before the end of the set

BadLarry

 

[LaR]

Don’t see how Catwoman is considered bad i'd have it at least 6-4 maybe 7-3 to Ares.

Ares can out zone her and runaway with fireballs and teleports, use invisibility freely, has a good answer for her jump 2 with his trait, better footsies with b13 which forces her to use j2, has better rushdown and continuous pressure with his 223 and f12 strings and his wake ups shut down Catwomans oki.

 

[InFlames]

Don’t see how Catwoman is considered bad i'd have it at least 6-4 maybe 7-3 to Ares.

Ares can out zone her and runaway with fireballs and teleports, use invisibility freely, has a good answer for her jump 2 with his trait, better footsies with b13 which forces her to use j2, has better rushdown and continuous pressure with his 223 and f12 strings and his wake ups shut down Catwomans oki.

How is trait an answer for her J2?

 

[LaR]

How is trait an answer for her J2?

it anti airs it

 

[InFlames]

it anti airs it

Not on reaction

 

[LaR]

Not on reaction

its not meant to be on reaction its something she has to respect when she gets into jump in distance

 

[InFlames]

its not meant to be on reaction its something she has to respect when she gets into jump in distance

Chucking it out randomly will just leave me open for pressure.

 

[LaR]

Chucking it out randomly will just leave me open for pressure.

not really it has good pushback and is safe at most distances and catwomans pressure is whack

 

[ryublaze]

Don’t see how Catwoman is considered bad i'd have it at least 6-4 maybe 7-3 to Ares.

Ares can out zone her and runaway with fireballs and teleports, use invisibility freely, has a good answer for her jump 2 with his trait, better footsies with b13 which forces her to use j2, has better rushdown and continuous pressure with his 223 and f12 strings and his wake ups shut down Catwomans oki.

what if she MB cat dashes you? she also does that thing where she builds trait (i think) and ducks under fireballs. and if u anti-air with trait so what it doesn't do a lot of damage right? that doesn't stop her from getting in again and you'll be without trait for a while. I think catwoman has better rushdown, and I think she has ambiguous cross-up after a hard knockdown so sometimes when I try to do far away tele i'll get a close tele instead.

then again I play online and I'm not very good at INJ so take my post with a grain of salt

 

[InFlames]

not really it has good pushback and is safe at most distances and catwomans pressure is whack

Are you blocking it while crouching? It does more pushback if you crouch, but if you stand block it does little to no pushback.

Character specific, nothing to see here.

 

[LaR]

what if she MB cat dashes you? she also does that thing where she builds trait (i think) and ducks under fireballs. and if u anti-air with trait so what it doesn't do a lot of damage right? that doesn't stop her from getting in again and you'll be without trait for a while. I think catwoman has better rushdown, and I think she has ambiguous cross-up after a hard knockdown so sometimes when I try to do far away tele i'll get a close tele instead.

then again I play online and I'm not very good at INJ so take my post with a grain of salt

yes she can throw out and a random dash and hope for the best but the risk reward is in Ares favour. As for the zoning she is going nowhere when she uses trait. She also has to deal with Ares invisibility mind games which is really strong against catwoman.

 

[Duck Nation]

Basically the risk reward for throwing out random overhead teleports is pretty horribly skewed in MMH's favor. Ares is going to be working his ass off to stop MMH from teleporting, and the amount of energy and mental focus required for Ares to stop MMH from teleporting whenever he feels like it leaves Ares very vulnerable to all the other horseshit MMH is going to throw at him.

This is true of almost every character in the game, for the record. I'm glad other people are starting to figure that out.

 

[LaR]

Are you blocking it while crouching? It does more pushback if you crouch, but if you stand block it does little to no pushback.

The pushback is random and sometimes character specific but that besides the point, trait stops her from jumping in freely and it allows Ares to check her with fireballs which can't be jumped on reaction at the right distance and the threat of trait also allows Ares to dash in and start his own pressure.

 

[ryublaze]

You need trait to punish catdash though. I'd rather keep trait for that and offense than hope for an anti-air with little damage. Idk if CW can mb cat dash on reaction to fireballs.

 

[LaR]

You need trait to punish catdash though. I'd rather keep trait for that and offense than hope for an anti-air with little damage. Idk if CW can mb cat dash on reaction to fireballs.

well imo your not playing Ares to his full potential if you only use his trait for combos. If you don't have trait you can still punish cat dash with 123 or 112 stage bounce

 

[ryublaze]

well imo your not playing Ares to his full potential if you only use his trait for combos. If you don't have trait you can still punish cat dash with 123 or 112 stage bounce

kewl I didn't know that 123 could combo.

 

[RYX]

bane isn't 7-3, lol

 

[4x4lo8o]

then again I play online and I'm not very good at INJ so take my post with a grain of salt

Didn't you see Pig's thread? Online players are better. I'm an offline scrub, the only experience I have is my weekly locals with the highest placing Catwoman at Evo.


Anyway, the idea that Ares outzones her seems silly. At full screen Ares literally can't do anything to her. She can MB Catdash if she gets a read on you doing anything(invis, teleport, axe, fireball) and it either punishes or is safe. If she doesn't want to Catdash she can just turtle. Ares can't touch her, not even get chip with axe.
Closer up she loses mb Catdash and evading the fireballs gets a little harder, but if she jumps a fireball she can full combo punish from like half screen with ji2.

This is actually the first time I've heard a Catwoman player say it's in Ares favor.

 

[Hellbringer]

Ares can out zone her and runaway with fireballs and teleports,

When she has no meter, then yes i agree....

 

[LaR]

Didn't you see Pig's thread? Online players are better. I'm an offline scrub, the only experience I have is my weekly locals with the highest placing Catwoman at Evo.


Anyway, the idea that Ares outzones her seems silly. At full screen Ares literally can't do anything to her. She can MB Catdash on reaction to anything except sword and it either punishes or is safe. If she doesn't want to Catdash she can just turtle. Ares can't touch her, not even get chip with axe.
Closer up she loses mb Catdash on reaction and evading the fireballs gets a little harder, but if she jumps a fireball she can full combo punish from like half screen with ji2.

This is actually the first time I've heard a Catwoman player say it's in Ares favor.

It really sounds like you dont know how play Ares especially against non fireball characters.
Also saying that Catwoman can react to fireballs with cat dash is completely wrong and so is saying Ares can do nothing at fullscreen.

There so many things Ares can do to a character like Catwoman. He has answer for everything against Catwoman.

He has one of best ways out of Catwomans oki pressure which she relies heavily on with his wake up teleport.

He has a good keep away game with his fireballs, trait, invisibility and teleport which is very frustrating for Catwoman to deal with when you know how use these tools correctly.

He out footsies all of Catwomans normals with his b13 forcing her to jump which can be easily Anti Aired if you can get into the right range. And his trait is another great footsie tool against Catwoman.

He has good oki pressure against Catwoman because her wake ups are not that good.

What more do you want??.

 

[4x4lo8o]

Attempting to use b4 to prevent ji2 is not a good idea in this match up. Use it too early before she decides and you get mb b3'd, use it too late and she stuffs it with j2. Not to mention she can jump over it. If it does catch her in the air you only get 4% or 10% and she gets to get up and jump on you for the next 9 seconds while it recharges.

I have no idea how 223 and f12 give Ares "continuous pressure". Granted 22 can give him some pressure, but if he finishes the string his pressure is over. f12 has absolute no use in the pressure game - no frame advantage, not fast, mediocre hitbox...

Her oki works great against Ares too. On his wake up she can do f11 or b12 and still have time to jump if he did Godsmack and is safe(with advantage) if he teleported. She can do a jump back and if Ares close godsmacks or in front teleports she can punish with j2, if he teleports behind(and probably far behind) can punish with j1. She might not be able to run her standard oki game(I don't know what she does against other characters) but she can easily modify to work very well against Ares. The new far teleports might throw a few kinks in, but if she reads those she can punish them too

She doesn't have to dash randomly, there's no risk reward regarding dashes that's in Ares favor. At fullscreen if she throws one out it's safe and at closer than full screen she doesn't need them. She can evade them on reaction and walk in because the recovery on them is so long. Once she gets to jump 2 range(which is like half screen, you'd know better than me, it's way out of Ares footsies range) it becomes much more difficult for Ares to throw fireballs because she can ji2 and full combo on reaction.

As far as punishing and combos - 123, f23~fireball for 20%ish is the best traitless combo you can get off 123, compared to mid 30's that you get with 112~d4. But you can't even punish Catdash with 1 most of the time and since 1 hits high you're likely to get blown up if you try. And you need trait to combo off of d1.