Match-up Discussion Raven MU Chart

[Hellbringer]

Mr Aquaman
IJS Dislexsik
AK Reayon
DownfouralitY
4x4lo8o
xInfra Deadx
Mosp

Im looking for Ares mains opinions on the Ares-Raven MU. Ive tried playing it multiple times and can never figure out if I am just free to this character or if maybe the MU isn't 5-5.

You dont have to give numbers if you dont want to, but it would help.

I think it might be 6-4 raven. I dont think you played the MU right, did wrong punishes etc. But online its pretty hard to play vs ares with his teleports so i cant fault you for that, and we playing overseas doesn't help at all. I feel that from midscreen and fullscreen she is in advantage. I haven't fought raven players that much i think your the only one in my FL who plays her.

 

[CY MasterHavik]

Hmm...I feel she doesn't lose as many mus as people say. How are we losing to Bane? Can I get some info on that?

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Hmm...I feel she doesn't lose as many mus as people say. How are we losing to Bane? Can I get some info on that?

She only loses like 8-10 mus and they're just 4.5-5.5 or 4-6

 

[Zoidberg747]

I think it might be 6-4 raven. I dont think you played the MU right, did wrong punishes etc. But online its pretty hard to play vs ares with his teleports so i cant fault you for that, and we playing overseas doesn't help at all. I feel that from midscreen and fullscreen she is in advantage. I haven't fought raven players that much i think your the only one in my FL who plays her.

After going into training I completely agree. A lot of times I tried to punish but couldn't, so offline it shouldn't be an issue. It is amazing how much slower the teleport is offline lol.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Hmm...I feel she doesn't lose as many mus as people say. How are we losing to Bane? Can I get some info on that?

Armor mainly. He outdamages her pretty bad as well. I thought it was 5-5 but after the patch he just has the tools to give her a hard time.

The thing though is all her bad MUs are very winnable, which makes her completely viable to play on her own(backups do help though)

edit: Changed Ares to 6-4 in OP

 

[4x4lo8o]

Mr Aquaman
IJS Dislexsik
AK Reayon
DownfouralitY
4x4lo8o
xInfra Deadx
Mosp

Im looking for Ares mains opinions on the Ares-Raven MU. Ive tried playing it multiple times and can never figure out if I am just free to this character or if maybe the MU isn't 5-5.

You dont have to give numbers if you dont want to, but it would help.

I think it's even-ish. I'll post later when I can hit practice to make sure I'm not accidentally saying anything that's bullshit.

It could be slight advantage Raven, but for the biggest frustration for me in the match up is usually the stupid floaty hitbox Raven has that floats over d1 and makes it whiff. That garbage makes me so salty, d1 probably has less 50% of it's normal range in that match up

 

[Sami]

My chart. Matches most of what is in the OP, but I think the Bane and Grundy MUs are harder than people think and Ares became far harder to deal with now he has a safe teleport. Left-right is just alphabetical, only look at height for difficulty of MU.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

I like how it's symmetrical, though I have to disagree on a few of them:

* Grundy: I genuinely believe that this MU is 5-5. An annoying 5-5, but a 5-5 nonetheless. Swamp Hands is borderline worthless, and you can keep him out reasonably well once you get a life lead. Though of course, if he gets the life lead, you're in a big heap of trouble. Long story short, the first few seconds of the match are critical.

* Green Lantern: Raven doesn't win this. Soul Crush having more range than Lantern's Might is damn helpful, but his 50/50s are still hellish for her. This is definitely a 5-5 MU too.

* Scorpion: IDK, this MU feels like it's a slight advantage for Raven here - all she has to do is bait out a teleport. Once he stops teleporting, the MU becomes a lot less annoying.

 

[Sami]

Grundy armours through everything. Yes he's taking full damage, but once he's in (and he will get in) you may as well kiss the rest of the round goodbye. His trait also removes Raven's option with dealing with turtle characters at range, i.e. to chip them out. Swap hands MB also has armour, and if he lands it I believe he gets 3 free dashes which will cover the whole screen. It's like Cyrax in MK9 - lifelead means nothing when he can pull of almost touch-of-death combos.

Green Lantern... I'm not going there again. It's not about Soul Crush, it's about him being completely hopeless at range against her and having great difficulty actually getting in. He walks soooooooooo slow that if he wants to advance he needs to risk a dash and even then Raven can just back-up. Also, EVO #1 Raven and GL both agree it's 6-4 Raven so you can argue it out with them too. I'm not denying he has the advantage up close, but unlike Grundy he has a very difficult time getting there.

Scorpion: Scorpion controls the entire pace of the match. Yes it becomes a lot less annoying when Scorpion stops teleporting, but you always have that threat. The only time Raven takes control of the match is when she puts him into a combo as she can counter all of his wake-ups with a jump-in/option select setup (I've posted it before) and he loses the ability to do anything until he guesses right. Two 45% combos is enough to shut most characters up. There may well be a very slight advantage for Raven here, but nothing that I would see lead to a reliable win. The biggest advantage anyone has against Scorp is that if they fuck up, Scorp's damage isn't exactly huge (Tony T's hilarious combo not withstanding) so you always have a chance to recover.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

I like how it's symmetrical, though I have to disagree on a few of them:

* Grundy: I genuinely believe that this MU is 5-5. An annoying 5-5, but a 5-5 nonetheless. Swamp Hands is borderline worthless, and you can keep him out reasonably well once you get a life lead. Though of course, if he gets the life lead, you're in a big heap of trouble. Long story short, the first few seconds of the match are critical.

* Green Lantern: Raven doesn't win this. Soul Crush having more range than Lantern's Might is damn helpful, but his 50/50s are still hellish for her. This is definitely a 5-5 MU too.

* Scorpion: IDK, this MU feels like it's a slight advantage for Raven here - all she has to do is bait out a teleport. Once he stops teleporting, the MU becomes a lot less annoying.

I agree with the first few seconds being critical in the Grundy mu but it's 6-4 Grundy.

As for the GL mu Shut up and get out. I'm sick of arguing this.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Raven's MU figures are pretty much all agreed upon by the "Raven community" other than 1-2 points of contention. My figures are:

4-6 (losing)

• Bane
• Batgirl
• Catwoman
• Doomsday
• Flash
• Killer Frost
• Martian Manhunter
• Soloman Grundy
• Superman
• Zod

4.5-5.5 (losing)

• Aquaman

5-5 (even)

• Batman
• Black Adam
• Deathstroke
• Nightwing
• Scorpion
• Sinetro
• Wonder Woman

5.5-4.5 (winning)

• Ares

6-4 (winning)

• Cyborg
• Green Arrow
• Green Lantern
• Harley Quinn
• Hawkgirl
• Lex Luthor
• Lobo
• Shazam
• The Joker
• Zatanna

And if you add all these up and take the average, you get bang on 5.0.

I saw this in the tier list thread but felt like it would be more properly discussed here. I was wondering if you could give me some insight on the catwoman MU. I always felt it was 5-5 but have not played it in a looonnnggg time.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Blind_Man

Why does Aquaman beat Raven? Sorry if it was already mentioned.

Only thing I can think of is if Aquaman gets a life lead, he can turtle at fullscreen with free FTD checks. I get that Aquaman has great footsies, but on an even/life disadvantage, he'd have to get in on Raven like anyone else would.

I'm sure you know something I don't from playing Michaelangelo.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Blind_Man

Why does Aquaman beat Raven? Sorry if it was already mentioned.

Only thing I can think of is if Aquaman gets a life lead, he can turtle at fullscreen with free FTD checks. I get that Aquaman has great footsies, but on an even/life disadvantage, he'd have to get in on Raven like anyone else would.

I'm sure you know something I don't from playing Michaelangelo.

One blocked soul crush= two free dashes instead of one.

Other than that, it usually ends up being both characters playing lame as hell, the difference being that Aquaman gets way more damage off of Raven's mistakes than she does off of his.

This is jmo, but I feel like Blind man has said the same thing before.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Blind_Man

Why does Aquaman beat Raven? Sorry if it was already mentioned.

Only thing I can think of is if Aquaman gets a life lead, he can turtle at fullscreen with free FTD checks. I get that Aquaman has great footsies, but on an even/life disadvantage, he'd have to get in on Raven like anyone else would.

I'm sure you know something I don't from playing Michaelangelo.

Yeah basically what zoidberg said. Also aquaman has better footsies cause b1 is stupid and aquaman is stupid.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Yeah basically what zoidberg said. Also aquaman has better footsies cause b1 is stupid and aquaman is stupid.

Are trait teleport and trait air teleport prone to getting D2'ed every single time or is there a way to make them safe? I know sometimes Raven players would air teleport and then mash J2 which stuffs my D2...or maybe its online.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Are trait teleport and trait air teleport prone to getting D2'ed every single time or is there a way to make them safe? I know sometimes Raven players would air teleport and then mash J2 which stuffs my D2...or maybe its online.

Air teleport is 40 frames of recovery so yeah it's online lol

 

[Zoidberg747]

Are trait teleport and trait air teleport prone to getting D2'ed every single time or is there a way to make them safe? I know sometimes Raven players would air teleport and then mash J2 which stuffs my D2...or maybe its online.

The only time Raven should ever get away with teleports is off of a whiff punish.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

The only time Raven should ever get away with teleports is off of a whiff punish.

I see, but even grounded trait teleport can be Aquaman D2'ed on reaction? Not even on a read.

 

[Zoidberg747]

I see, but even grounded trait teleport can be Aquaman D2'ed on reaction? Not even on a read.

Yep. Her ground teleport has 19 recovery frames and his d2 is 7f, unless one of those things is wrong frame data.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Yep. Her ground teleport has 19 recovery frames and his d2 is 7f, unless one of those things is wrong frame data.

Gotcha. Might as well test it in the lab. Thanks guys.

 

[Sami]

I saw this in the tier list thread but felt like it would be more properly discussed here. I was wondering if you could give me some insight on the catwoman MU. I always felt it was 5-5 but have not played it in a looonnnggg time.

From when I was last playing it:

1) F1/B1 mix-up.
2) Catdash through most zoning attempts and I believe cross-up setups. Note that this was before the whole wake-up reversal thing was discovered for Raven so that may not be an issue.
3) Straight whip being an excellent way of stuffing Raven's wake-ups at range and being safe (negative, but safe) on block.
4) a very fast f3 allowing you to armour through anything Raven tries to do unless. Only thing that beat the move at neutral was 1 and d1 and that's only because armour doesn't start until frame 7/8. If Catwoman starts the MB f3 2 frames before Raven does anything then Raven is forced to block or be blown up. F2's two hits didn't go through quick enough either (first hit absorbed by armour, then f3 hit before the second). This, MB cat-dash and straight whip are all various ways of screwing over a knocked-down Raven.

Catwoman without meter isn't much of a threat at range. The moment she gets 1 bar (not exactly difficult) you'll can be punished for pressing buttons at range, and you do not want her on top of you. Is it as bad as the KF match-up? God no, but IMO it's certainly in CW's favour. With more practice and testing of reversal wake-up I might move it to 4.5-5.5, but I still don't see how Raven ever has a noticeable upper hand other then when CW has an empty bar.

When I saw how Krayzie (CW) was fighting Aris (DS), a MU that was far harder for CW to deal with than Raven, I became convinced that Raven can not keep a good CW out and once she's close enough everything you do is punishable by MB cat-dash. Catwoman players need to stop respecting the match-up and YOLO more


edit: on another note, I was reading the CW forums and 16 bit says she gets armour on f3 one frame sooner than b3, which would be 7 frames rather than 8. Might be worth checking to see if Raven's f3 has this as well.