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"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
StevoSuprem0 said:
Lobo *used* to receive his armor that way. Now it has invincibility frame until the armor occurs on wakeup. DD, you're probably right, you have more experience than me there. Doesn't Supernova escape though? I know it's punishable and what not, just talking straight escaping of the setup.
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nope, supernova has original startup that gets caught

same thing with lobo, i was actually testing it 10 mins after we stopped playing
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Qwark28 said:
nope, supernova has original startup that gets caught

same thing with lobo, i was actually testing it 10 mins after we stopped playing
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I don't think so for Lobo sir. I've both played against the setups with him and tried delivering them on Lobo (he's kinda my alt). His hook charge has invincibility right up until the hook hits the ground and the armor starts up when you MB it.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
StevoSuprem0 said:
I don't think so for Lobo sir. I've both played against the setups with him and tried delivering them on Lobo (he's kinda my alt). His hook charge has invincibility right up until the hook hits the ground and the armor starts up when you MB it.
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check it, ive clearly hit him out of it
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
I'll check it when I get home from work. It'd be good to break down the corner game against each character and their wakeup options. So very many thread ideas, so little time.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Might be the kind of thing we should make a separate thread for, but I thought it would be good to have a discussion about how to open people up with Joker. I feel as though once people are familiar with the spacing on how his jumps cross up and how his teeth traps for (212 xx teeth on block and resets in general), it becomes nearly impossible to succeed with this character.

That's not to say he isn't without his dirt- let's face it, this is a game where every character in it has some kinda broken bullshit that they exploit, and Joker is no exception. The problem is, Joker simply can't access his once people are used to him:
-Every teeth reset is blockable unless they are timed to the point where the human thumb/hand literally cannot transition from back to down fast enough to switch the blocks, in which case 90% of the setups can simply be escaped due to the necessary timing delay.
-Teeth on the ground scare people at first and let us exploit their reactions to open them up, but once they realize how their characters can work around them, we're back to square one.
-If he had a strong zoning game, he could work around this by making people come to him and setting up traps that way, but he doesn't, period.
-Once Joker is in your face, all you have to do is block down on the first hit, then block high on the rest. If you see a RLG come out, switch to blocking low, or go for a punish... plenty of time to react.
-The sweep 50/50 is still insanely risky most of the time, and really isn't that much of a 50/50. Sweep grants a hard KD and often an ambiguous jump in, but if it's blocked you're eating a combo in most matchups and people tend to favor blocking low against Joker. The crowbar isn't punishable, can lead into some pretty good OTG stuff, and leaves us a useful parry window, but at 23 startup frames, it can be reacted to pretty easily, especially when people know to look for it.

When you put all this together, it becomes pretty clear that Joker simply can't access his dirty when the opponent is at all familiar with how he functions, causing his performance to plummet in a high performance setting. We have to play extremely patiently and hope the opponent makes mistakes that we can capitalize while we play flawlessly. Yes, such is the nature of a low tier character, but this begs the question- what the hell can we do to open people up once they know how Joker works?

This brings us to the key of his game- don't let people adapt at-fucking-all. We have found so many different BnB's, resets, OTGs, etc. in our time with the character, we have to keep throwing different things at people if there is any hope in the match. I find that the matches I do the best in against my friends, who are now able to block every teeth reset I do with ease and can tell how an ambiguous jump in is going to play out with ease, is when I throw things at them that they either haven't seen, or haven't seen lately. Going for teeth resets at different phases of combos, using strings aren't commonly thrown out (I'm beginning to think that's why most of his strings are safe on block), and just throwing whatever you can at your opponent to throw them off and keep them guessing. Yeah, that's kinda the point for any character at any time, but so many characters in this game can be predictable and simply not get punished for it, while Joker will get nowhere this way.

Maybe this is all really obvious and I'm just droning on in my fighting game naivety, maybe someone will find this helpful, I dunno. I'm certainly the worst culprit in the world at doing the same shit all the time and being really readable, and I've been paying for it the past few days in kind... lol. Anyways, if anyone else has any interesting strategies for opening people up, I'm all ears. There is obviously a lot of matchup dependence with things like this, but speaking from a strictly neutral situation, what do you guys think the best ways to open people up are once you're in their face?

TL;DR- Why don't you just give me a bottle of scotch and a handgun to blow my fucking head off...?
 
KonDcnT

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
Joker has something, it is right at our grasp. Coming from being cyrax player, I can understand the doubt. NRS knows something about Mr. J rhat we don't. They didn't bail on us, they simply have shown us direction
 
Gilbagz

Gilbagz

Joker here~
StevoSuprem0 said:
snip
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Stevo i've come terms with Joker's lack of mix up midscreen lol
Just play to get to ther corner, any combo you get midscreen I think of it as just bonus damage.
Against a good opponent, you aren't going to open them up for significant damage.

That being said this is what I generally run.
Characters generally fall into one of these two categories
Characters who can duck 2,1 but not 2,1,2 and characters who can duck 2,1,2 but not 2,1

Against characters who can't duck 2,1,2 i'll run that teeth mix up all day. If they pressure i'm ready to push block and take my 25%. Usually people will just jump away. Which i'm fine with since it pushes them closer to the corner. If im feeling ballsy, i'll chase the backdash/jump away with j3 for that bit of extra damage and wall carry. But if I decide to just block, it is no biggy. We are reset to neutral but hes closer to the corner.
Some times if i have spare meter i'll do the entire 2,1,2 mb rlg. People tend to panic and try jump out (taking advantage of lack match up exp here but it is good to throw out every once in a while.) Even if people block it isnt too bad because we get extra chip and we get the semi safe jump 2 back ii. People who dont respect the safe jump eat the j2 for full combo or take the air to air for a mini 25%ish combo.

Against characters who can duck 2,1,2. I run the 2,1 frame traps. Generally mixing up between 2,1,3 and 2,1 b1. People can react to the 2,1 pause and block the b1. However then we can just loop 2,1. Or do 2,1, b2 or 2,1 grab, or 2,1 crowbar. We don't get much damage but all these enders give a lot of wall carry.
We do need to be wary of mb b3 cuz it will beat the frame traps. We can beat this on a read with parry or own mb b3 though.

Characters who can duck both options, which I believe is only Shazam, are a nightmare. We just have to run 3,2,3 and take the +1. Or do 3,2 acid flower for chip. Fighting a high level shazam is going to be horrible imo. One of jokers harder match ups cuz he takes away the whole 2,1,2, series, has a decent d2 to aa and has a good air to air game with j1 and j2. Also we can't punish torpedo for much damage, and he gets out of our set ups free with his teleport.
Might be better after I get some more exp, but theory wise it spells a bad match.

Overall, I just base my game around slowly chipping away at their health midscreen, concentrating more on the wall carry aspect. If I touch them thats great, I take a huge chunk and get a good mix up. Otherwise, i'm content with chipping away because I know once I get them to the corner it's horrible for them. Characters with good corner escapes, e.g. BA, Gl, Shazam, Ares, Zod, make this harder. But we just need to space our selves better in the corner to catch escape attempts. We just can't be as aggressive on knockdown.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Wonderwoman is worse.

Can parry J2 into standing 3 and ducks everything else for a D2 combo. Once you get knocked down you're as good as dead. Her b2 is 15f not punishable on whiff, overhead and catches jumps too.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I tend to open people up by forcing them to press buttons and then punish them for doing so, I do get to the corner but most of my damage comes from midscreen.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Yeah I really need to start using 212 stuff again midscreen. Went too long without playing people and now I just go for big stuff that I do in training instead of actually being effective x_x.
What are all the corner options we have right now for reseting? Is it just teeth and then 113, b13, mb f3, and j2/3? Just wanna make sure I'm using all the options. Fucking friends have figured out how to escape or block EVERYTHING now lol. It sucks.
 
Gilbagz

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Qwark28 said:
http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/474091538

pools, me vs a batman, catwoman and wonder woman

top 4, me vs the same wonderwoman who i just stopped playing joker against, this matchup requires too much 100% flawless play http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/474111172
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Finally got around to watching this
Good shit qwark
got no gripes about your gameplay
i gotta start adding more neutral game teeth into my game as well
Nice stuff with the j3 conversions as well. I usually just take the mini combo cuz i dont wanna waste the meter, but i might actually start spending the meter on the d2 rlg now.
Only one thing i can say is careful with zoning batman cuz batman can outzone with his batarang. in that match he wasnt zoning so you could do that fine, just be ready for a zoning batman when it comes.
Outside of that mad props to you and congrats on the win.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Gilbagz said:
Finally got around to watching this
Good shit qwark
got no gripes about your gameplay
i gotta start adding more neutral game teeth into my game as well
Nice stuff with the j3 conversions as well. I usually just take the mini combo cuz i dont wanna waste the meter, but i might actually start spending the meter on the d2 rlg now.
Only one thing i can say is careful with zoning batman cuz batman can outzone with his batarang. in that match he wasnt zoning so you could do that fine, just be ready for a zoning batman when it comes.
Outside of that mad props to you and congrats on the win.
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It's difficult to open up high lvl players so I want every little bit of damage I can get, during the tournament where I realised I'm not really landing any jumps due to things like catwomans air to air, doomsdays few jumps, etc I thought I'd try to find something to get damage with bars spent off of anything which I'll be working on.

In general I noticed some things I shouldn't have done like overabusing gunshot at some points instead of blocking ( vs catwoman ) and getting wayyyy too greedy with resets in the grand finals, I could've baited the third game's wakeup in the corner, punished it and went on for another reset but instead I miscalculated my HP, wasted a bar, let her out of the corner and reset momentum.

I knew the Batman and his playstyle so I adjusted accordingly.

You can't tell from the stream cam pics but I almost always had meter due to not landing any jump attacks and shit so I'd always go for max damage.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Watched the first one, will watch the second later. So far, really awesome play Qwark, well done :). Very patient and good exploitation of mistakes made by the opponent.
Two things I wanted to add just in case you don't know them:
-At some of the closer distances of connecting a HLG, whether they were in the air or on the ground, if you MB it, you can do j3, j2, 32 flower for 43%, or end in something else for a ghetto teeth setup (323 xx teeth or 21 xx teeth or something). I saw a few spots you could have done that.
-In the corner, when you are landing the super hard KD (213), I'm 95% sure the optimized version is starter, mb rlg, d2 teeth, j2 MID teeth, 32 (1 hit) teeth, 213. Squeezes more damage out and has the same KD duration (that's the part I'm 95% sure of... verify please!!!).
Otherwise, really awesome play. Looking forward to watching the second video. You had some really good screen control and knowledge of how to best convert little hits into something useful. Great stuff!
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Gilbagz said:
Guys was experimenting a bit more with SonicFox's otg off a crowbar in the corner.
Standing 3 also otgs. This kinda cool because 3,2 flower leaves you spaced where b1 connects but most peoples d1's will whiff. Also flower leaves you at +4 so this would be a frame trap. Need to experiment more but found it kinda cool.

Bane specific, but because of his hitbox, after this set up, you are still in range to do 2,1. So you can go straight back into 2,1,2 teeth stuff or just 2,1 pressure in general. (Dunno if this is completely true, but was in range when I was testing)

Guys how are you ending corner combos? Before I was just dropping teeth and doing random ji2's and ji3's. Confirming into 2,1,2 and then dropping more teeth. Seemed to work for the most part, but it should get blown up by some wake up attacks. Thinking we're going to have use the OTG stuff for characters with wake ups that escape the teeth stuff (otherwise we would have to make the read on wake up attacks to punish them. Which isn't completely bad I guess.) But yeah crowbar knockdowns into 3,2 flower grants the +4 which gives a free b1. Once they respect that, you can come in with other strings.

Or is better to just take the crazy damage from Cat's new corner Bnb?

Just ideas right now with the OTG right now.
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quoted so i can look at this later incase i forget

something new ithought of
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
StevoSuprem0 said:
Watched the first one, will watch the second later. So far, really awesome play Qwark, well done :). Very patient and good exploitation of mistakes made by the opponent.
Two things I wanted to add just in case you don't know them:
-At some of the closer distances of connecting a HLG, whether they were in the air or on the ground, if you MB it, you can do j3, j2, 32 flower for 43%, or end in something else for a ghetto teeth setup (323 xx teeth or 21 xx teeth or something). I saw a few spots you could have done that.
-In the corner, when you are landing the super hard KD (213), I'm 95% sure the optimized version is starter, mb rlg, d2 teeth, j2 MID teeth, 32 (1 hit) teeth, 213. Squeezes more damage out and has the same KD duration (that's the part I'm 95% sure of... verify please!!!).
Otherwise, really awesome play. Looking forward to watching the second video. You had some really good screen control and knowledge of how to best convert little hits into something useful. Great stuff!
Click to expand...
that corner combo is either very hard to time or impossible, i had to adjust to lagless monitors so i didnt even go for any d2 teeth combos, the times i did i got d2 crowbar
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
my main mistake was greed. i could have won every single game with joker, even the grand finals but I got way too greedy at some points.
 
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