What is an actual "reset"?

[STORMS]

Through a chat we've been having there's some confusion on all sides about the adopted version of what a "reset" is and what it's meant for fighting games in the past.

So, can any of you give me the most solid, basic definition of a "RESET" and are they different in Injustice? What do you think?


Shock CrimsonShadow

 

[Shock]

A reset is when you literally reset the position of a player from air to ground, or damage/properties of moves in a combo that the other player cannot prevent or escape.

It is not the same as a bait, 50/50, or mix up.

 

[ShadowBeatz]

The only thing that made Cyrax viable in MK9.

He needs it. Trust me, I know. I played with him offline a few times

 

[Shock]

The only thing that made Cyrax viable in MK9.

He needs it

Cyrax has legit resets in MK9. 50 points

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Oh lawd STORMS, what have you done

 

[Fabulocity]

Historically speaking, a reset was when the combo counter stopped counting the hits in a combo. It "reset" back to 0 hits. Anytime you stop a combo early and let the combo counter go back to 0, it was considered a reset.

The reason for doing this was that in games with damage scaling or other undesirable effects of long combos, you can avoid them and do max damage again. This became mostly common place in MVC2, where infinites were everywhere, but they weren't very effective for winning. So you'd purposefully drop your combo early to sneak in more damage that avoided your opponent dizzying out of the combo.

As the tactic evolved, it became common practice to reset combos in certain places where you could hide the fact that you stopped it early. You sacrificed possibly more damage or positioning in order to reset the combo counter and do potentially MORE damage than if you finished the combo. The down side was that if your opponent caught on, they could block, and you'd end up doing much less damage than if you'd just finished.

More modern games have embraced this idea because of the inherent risk/reward nature of it. Games like MK9 and Injustice purposefully design certain moves to be "reset" moves. Some moves give you a hard knockdown, making it impossible to roll away and giving you a free mix up. Others leave the opponent standing (preferably near you) so you can avoid their wake up counters and get a free mix up.

In summary, the main idea it to stop the combo early to avoid heavy damage saling or other negative effects and to sneak in an entirely new combo for maximum, unscaled damage.

 

[ELC]

Basically what Shock said, except to expand upon it: any combo that leads into an opportunity to start another combo once the opponent recovers can be considered a reset. An example of this is C.Viper in UMvC3: her air throw reset is used in the air, but only after an opponent techs out of the air combo they're in.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

But if you wanted my 2c, current usage of the word is this:

Standing Reset: Using a move to convert what would normally have been a knockdown into a situation that keeps the opponent standing, so that you can mix them up or continue to pressure them.

Reset: 'Resetting' one combo into another new combo (with renewed damage scaling); often this involves stopping a combo prematurely in order to 'reset' the damage by immediately trapping your opponent in a second combo. Sometimes guaranteed damage is exchanged for the reset opportunity.

Unblockable Reset: A type of reset that cannot be escaped, often due to glitches or unforseen caveats in a game engine. Ex. Cyrax's in MK9.

 

[JAP]

Yes, two combos in one, and not one combo + chip damage - 50/50

 

[Sami]

If you want my 2c, current usage of the word is this:

Standing Reset: Using a move to convert what would normally have been a knockdown into a situation that keeps the opponent standing, so that you can mix them up or continue to pressure them.

Reset: 'Resetting' one combo into another new combo; often this involves stopping a combo prematurely in order to 'reset' the damage by immediately trapping your opponent in a second combo. Sometimes guaranteed damage is exchanged for the reset opportunity.

Unblockable Reset: A type of reset that cannot be escaped, often due to glitches or unforseen caveats in a game engine. Ex. Cyrax's in MK9.

The best answer.

 

[Fabulocity]

People have mentioned many kinds of resets, which is good that we can observe and understand the difference, but if I were explaining it to a total noob I'd just talking about resetting the combo counter. Any idiot can see, recognize, and understand what has happened in that situation.

This also gives them incentive to watch what's happening, ask questions and generally learn because now they have a reference point of knowledge when caught in a very long seeming combo.

Whether it be standing, knockdown, or whatever reset if an uneducated players sees where the combo counter reset, they'll be more apt to ask what happened and how to escape it if they even can. This will lead to more players learning, or at least trying to learn the mechanics found in almost every game.

Starting off with a huge novel as the what is a standing, unblockable of whatever reset is just going to scare the shit out of people.

Coming from the world of Tekken, I'm use to dumbing down simple complicated concepts for beginners. Tekken is nothing but complicated concepts.

 

[Doombawkz]

Theres a lot of kinds of "resets", theres even a "TR reset" or tech roll reset for short, and its basically where a move forces a tech roll from the opponent and you follow-up as such. For example, since its going to be a lot more public, Bane's MB Venom Uppercut. It forces the opponent to tech roll and gives you enough advantage to follow up. For Bane, its going into command grab since its a touchbox.

Its pretty nifty. Its not even a "the opponent is very likely to tech roll but can avoid it", its a "the opponent will tech roll, the move forces them to do it upon landing".

 

[Vulcan Hades]

To me it's pretty simple: If what resets the combo counter is inescapable or unblockable then it can't be a reset. It's a glitch.

A reset is sacrificing X% damage from your BnB for a 50/50 shot at landing another full combo. Which implies that you can't really create an effective reset without a mixup of some sort. Usually the mixups are: overhead/low, front/cross-up or throw/frametrap.

If your BnB is 40% damage and you drop it at 30% to go for a throw attempt (10%) then it's kind of a stupid reset because the end reward is equal to what would've been guaranteed in the first place. So as a rule of thumb I feel that the damage you sacrifice for a reset should always be at least half of what you're aiming for: 30% (sacrifice 10%) 50/50 mixup into 40% + okizeme situation or 20-30% into another reset. etc.

The interactable resets in Injustice are resets because you can escape the splash damage by using an invincible wake up attack. In most cases at least. I think there are a few instances where the interactable OTGs and cannot be avoided at all. Then those instances would be glitches.

Some commentators have also coined the term "American reset". Which is a reset performed by accident. Basically when Mike Ross clearly drops a combo but still somehow manages to start another one right away. We pretend it was intended and not an input error.

 

[That__John__Guy]

I think there is agreement that a reset is when the hit counter is "reset" to zero to avoid the negative impact of damage scaling. Thus, one can drop a combo which could be extended to avoid damage scaling and do more damage. The action in the debate is whether the term "reset" should apply to those situations where the counter is reset during an unavoidable situation or only avoidable situations. So, dropping a combo that could be extended so that there is a reset which places your opponent in a 50/50: is that a "reset" or not? [Essentially trading guaranteed damage for the chance at greater damage]. Likewise, dropping a combo that could be extended, but where your opponent cannot react, thus allowing you to continue inflicting guaranteed damage with a reset hit counter: is that a "reset" or is that a "glitch" that is exploited. [Essentially trading guaranteed damage for yet more guaranteed damage.]

That seems to be the debate.

 

[Circus]

A reset is a combo that ends in an opportunity to go directly into another combo SAFELY. The safe part is the main issue. If there is absolutely no way the defender could interrupt the set up into another combo then its a reset.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I thought the universal FG term 'reset' meant exactly like the NRS 'situational reset' where you reset the situation from how it was prior to the combo after it.

But then MK9 came with another type of 'reset' that reset the combo counter providing characters bigger damage.

 

[Shock]

When you drop a combo intentionally to attempt another combo that can potentially lead to more damage, it's not a reset, it's a bait and or mix up because there is the chance of failure due to your opponent's choices. Just because the act of stopping your combo "resets" the combo counter doesn't mean it's an actual concept. If you can exploit a hole in the game system that actually resets properties and allows you continue a combo unimpeded, that is literally a reset combo.

If you knock an opponent down and attempt a high/low/ambiguous cross over mix up as they get up and they can reaction block, that's just a mix up.

If you knock an opponent down and attempt a high low mix up as they get up and they cannot reaction block or counter, that is a 50/50 because they can still escape except it is entirely guess based.

If the damage and/or control is not guaranteed, it is not a reset. You haven't actually done anything other than play the game.

If you perform a combo or move that forces your opponent into a neutral state that can be exploited and turned into a new, inescapable combo that is otherwise against the rules of the game, that is a reset. You don't necessarily need to perform more than one hit after a reset is enabled. Essentially, a reset needs to be hit confirmed and guaranteed every time to qualify as a reset, or glitch combo, glitch link, whatever you want to call it, but just simply playing the game and micromanaging your habits to trick the player into getting more damage is not a reset, it's just playing the game.

Things like "situational reset" "blockable reset" "escapable reset" "guaranteed reset" etc are all frivolous terms cooked up by the FGC over time to prevent diminishing their characters' viability. They all have designated names that cover their meanings already and the word "reset" makes it sound more legit and intentional. A reset is a reset. The only thing that needs clarification is a standing reset which doesn't need to reset damage or move properties, other than bringing a character from the air to ground. In this case, even things like Scorpion's Harpoon or Lex's Vacuum are standing resets.

I'll use examples of some things I know.

UMK3 relaunch semi infinites are the very definition of a standing reset:

Cyrax MK9 resets embody the very concept of combo breaking:

UMK3 Cyrax resets were the precursor to his MK9 resets:

Akuma air and demon resets

Kabal UMK3 reset at 1:11

Chun Li MvC air demon "uncombo" at 19s

 

[Juggs]

A reset is when you literally reset the position of a player from air to ground, or damage/properties of moves in a combo that the other player cannot prevent or escape.

It is not the same as a bait, 50/50, or mix up.

A traditional reset, to my knowledge, isn't inescapable. The entire point of a reset is to drop the player out of a combo early, or to do a combo that isn't optimized in damage, to setup a reset which resets the damage scaling. You sacrifice guaranteed damage and also risk not getting the reset, but the reward is high damage. A guaranteed reset, which is what it sounds like you're defining, is a reset that is unavoidable once it starts, such as Cyrax in MK9. I'd call that specifically a damage reset, not an actual reset, because it's guaranteed, there's zero risk and all reward.

STORMS

 

[Shock]

Let's not forget MKD's wakeup resets

Not to mention throw resets (which in many games are techable but I believe MKD had notoriously effective ones) and while we're at it, an MKDA Cyrax reset:

 

[Shock]

A traditional reset, to my knowledge, isn't inescapable. The entire point of a reset is to drop the player out of a combo early, or to do a combo that isn't optimized in damage, to setup a reset which resets the damage scaling. You sacrifice guaranteed damage and also risk not getting the reset, but the reward is high damage. A guaranteed reset, which is what it sounds like you're defining, is a reset that is unavoidable once it starts, such as Cyrax in MK9. I'd call that specifically a damage reset, not an actual reset, because it's guaranteed, there's zero risk and all reward.

STORMS

You can't call something a reset if you might not get a reset (ie "he attempted the reset") and while I understand that yes, the playing field is reset, this can happen entirely by accident. In reality, when it's intentional you are baiting the opponent into a bad choice, just like on wakeup, is he going to wakeup, is he going to just block? Is going to back dash? You are creating a critical point and only setting up potential damage. If you aren't guaranteeing something to be reset, you are simply dropping the combo to attempt a new combo and hope you get it. There's no real concept to be had. This is a terminology that has been thrown around only in recent years and it's wrong. I just recently decided to start bringing this up because I hear more and more people call baits, mix ups and 50/50s resets. All of these concepts put you in a position to fail.

I think the problem is the term "reset" started being used to describe this, when less actual resets were in games so there are many players who are unaware that it's been around a while. The whole point of a reset was zero risk and all reward, it gives you a completely new, unscaled combo and you can now reuse the moves that have been disabled or retain the properties that become locked once a previous containment is used, for example. You literally make the choice to reset your opponent's state, not just taking a time out from a combo.

 

[Rip Torn]

When you drop a combo intentionally to attempt another combo that can potentially lead to more damage, it's not a reset

Actually, that is a reset.

If the damage and/or control is not guaranteed, it is not a reset.

Guaranteed resets are not the only type of resets in fighting games. Alot of resets come off of throws in other games, which are techable.

I would like to add:

American Reset: When you accidentally drop a combo but still reset the opponent because you got lucky.

 

[Mikemetroid]

A reset is when you literally reset the position of a player from air to ground, or damage/properties of moves in a combo that the other player cannot prevent or escape.

It is not the same as a bait, 50/50, or mix up.

/thread

 

[Shock]

Actually, that is a reset.



Guaranteed resets are not the only type of resets in fighting games. Alot of resets come off of throws in other games, which are techable.

I would like to add:

American Reset: When you accidentally drop a combo but still reset the opponent because you got lucky.

Yes I did mention throw resets and various others in my text wall posts.

I didn't fully explain the type of reset where you cannot escape or prevent the attempt however it might just be blockable, but others did mention it, which is where the biggest grey area is. The other player must not be able to do anything to avoid, or counter for it to be some kind of reset, but not like, just a wakeup, bait, or 50/50. A full reset would be classifiable as a glitch.

 

[That__John__Guy]

I love this. I never knew the ontology of "resets" was so deep. STORMS it looks like there was good reason to sense confusion existed, since there are conflicting definitions!

 

[Rip Torn]

Yes I did mention throw resets and various others in my text wall posts.

I didn't fully explain the type of reset where you cannot escape or prevent the attempt however it might just be blockable, but others did mention it, which is where the biggest grey area is. The other player must not be able to do anything to avoid, or counter for it to be some kind of reset, but not like, just a wakeup, bait, or 50/50. A full reset would be classifiable as a glitch.

I think you are getting stuck on there being only one type of reset. As the community evolves, so does the terminology. You are clearly describing guaranteed resets (which are exploits/glitches). But there are many types of resets. As far as the general fighting game community is concerned, not all resets are guaranteed. If you watch a Skullgirls or Marvel stream, you will constantly see air-throw reset attempts and they are either successful, or the throw gets teched and they escape the reset. The commentators will say "he gets the reset" or "he techs out" and everyone understands that there was a reset attempt.

Standing resets (or re-stand) are sort of different because they are meant to keep the opponent standing so you can attempt a mixup or nullify wake-up options or continue pressure and chip damage (JC nut punch). In this case I think it is important to use the term "standing reset" or "re-stand" because it does not always lead into a new combo even though the re-stand itself was successful.