Well, I'd better just go ahead and put this out here...

[Doombawkz]

Your fixes doesn't change our 3-7 MU against Flex Luthor or our 2-8 against Flash, and your other changes don't fix our 7-3 against Ares.

 

[Duck Nation]

Also, as much as I would love that nerf to aquaman as a batgirl main, it would be quite a substantial nerf. If trait was fixed so that he could only use it like 3 times per match (lots of cool down, you can increase duration if you want) I'd be completely ok with it. As it stands, you have to bait out the trait, hopefully get a hard knock down, and then rush him for 8 seconds while he uses his superior footsies to stuff you over and keep you out then repeat as it comes back hella fast.

Even if it was just made so he couldn't activate it during hit stun, that would be much better.

Again, it's not as substantial of a nerf as it really seems. It would feel like it against Batman, Batgirl, etc., but the truth is nothing about the character really changes. It's a question of him simply being able to take away your damage at will, rather than any specific true gameplay tool he has. His trait is in a position where it either doesn't matter because people can juggle him readily, or where it wins the match for him because it shuts out everything his opponent does. It makes no sense.

 

[Duck Nation]

Your fixes doesn't change our 3-7 MU against Flex Luthor or our 2-8 against Flash, and your other changes don't fix our 7-3 against Ares.

"Our?" I am to assume this is Bane you are speaking about, then? As I've said, this is open to rational suggestion and I would love to hear why specifically these are bad and what might be done about them.

 

[Doombawkz]

"Our?" I am to assume this is Bane you are speaking about, then? As I've said, this is open to rational suggestion and I would love to hear why specifically these are bad and what might be done about them.

As far as Lex goes, mines + armor + taking no damage + projectiles and everything else bad in life.
As far as Flash goes, j.2 and everything else in existence.

As far as Ares goes, you'd have to give him one hell of a wake-up buff

 

[zuurrkk]

Most people want to destroy f23, but if that happens it takes away the single most unique and powerful tool in his gameplay and he would struggle to have all the rest of his tools make up that difference.

So

 

[Pan1cMode]

As far as Lex goes, mines + armor + taking no damage + projectiles and everything else bad in life.
As far as Flash goes, j.2 and everything else in existence.

As far as Ares goes, you'd have to give him one hell of a wake-up buff

Maybe a backwards teleport not based on the opponent's position? Similar to Shazam or Zatanna?

 

[Doombawkz]

Maybe a backwards teleport not based on the opponent's position? Similar to Shazam or Zatanna?

Giving him a backwards teleport like Zatanna would be best. Shazam's ports don't really bother Bane anymore.

 

[Duck Nation]

As far as Lex goes, mines + armor + taking no damage + projectiles and everything else bad in life.
As far as Flash goes, j.2 and everything else in existence.

As far as Ares goes, you'd have to give him one hell of a wake-up buff

Those are pretty vague to actually base any fixes on. I don't suppose you have more complete match-up posts handy or anything, do you?

Maybe a backwards teleport not based on the opponent's position? Similar to Shazam or Zatanna?

What would he do in the corner? I'm told the corner is already worse for Ares than it is for many characters.

Anyways, bed time for me, I go to sleep with great worries that this thread will implode into a flamewar by the time I arise again. Remember guys, THINK MATCH-UPS!

 

[Doombawkz]

Those are pretty vague to actually base any fixes on. I don't suppose you have more complete match-up posts handy or anything, do you?


What would he do in the corner? I'm told the corner is already worse for Ares than it is for many characters.

Anyways, bed time for me, I go to sleep with great worries that this thread will implode into a flamewar by the time I arise again. Remember guys, THINK MATCH-UPS!

Its not vague, its literally that wide of a blanket of "fuck up bane" that they wear like Jax wears the flag.

As far as the corner goes, meh. You gotta have some weakness.

 

[Duck Nation]

but thats what makes her fair that she just cant fly all over the place and it will turn some of her MUs very lopsided. plus it makes hg mainers to learn how to use her ground mobility

One more post I missed, then sleep.

Which matches? The only ones that change would affect basically at all would be Lex, Sinestro, Deathstroke and Batman. Lex and Batman would gain setups that would allow them to exploit her air blocking projectiles, and Sinestro and Deathstroke would be bumped down to even at worst. As I said, most projectiles - note, PROJECTILES - already completely miss her in flight anyways, unless she happens to be particularly low to the ground. It would make very little difference in most of her matches, but make her more competitive in some very troublesome ones.

I still think DS would beat her 6-4 after that adjustment, by the way.

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

A lot of these changes seem really poorly thought out to be honest.

 

[Soulofsuikoden]

A lot of these changes seem really poorly thought out to be honest.

Could you elaborate on why, please?

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

Could you elaborate on why, please?

I didn't want to have to do this, but I guess I will.

The Adam changes don't change any of Adam's strengths. Meaning it's just another nonsense nerf and he'll still destroy all the same characters he destroys. If Adam is getting a nerf, it needs to either be to his backdash, OR adding more negative frames onto wake up cage. The Superman changes, while really good for Grundy and Doomsday, are extremely mediocre. Meaning he'll still be untouchable by 90% of the cast. If Superman gets any nerf at all it should be to his laser recovery. Which would make his insane corner damage go away, and would also make his zoning a lot more bearable. I'm going to ask that anyone trying to reply to this not downplay Superman's zoning, because I really don't want to get into that argument, it'll just make me salty. The Aquaman changes are completely biased, he doesn't need a trait change, it just needs a little bit longer of a cooldown, if anything at all. The Hawk girl buff would make her absolutely insane. The Deathstroke buff is biased and unneeded, that character is fine as he is and people need to stop downplaying him. And the Batman nerf doesn't change him at all, he'll still be ridiculous. The only thing it does is reduce the amount of chip damage he can cause while zoning, other than that his zoning is still nuts. If anything is nerfed on Batman it should be the bat cooldown time, OR making his projectile 1 hit along with reducing the hitbox a tiny bit on b23's explosion so it's easier to jump out of. And MOST of the changes I suggested aside from superman are completely dependent on not buffing the low tier. If the low tier is buffed these nerfs also change quite a bit. The suggested nerfs are just my opinions, you could go a million ways about balancing these characters, but I'd like to think what I suggested helps out the biggest amount of low tier characters.

 

[Son ov Timett]

The only real mu experience I have in this game is against Supes, and the problem is not f23, it's his laser recovery and the meter it builds.

 

[Soulofsuikoden]

I didn't want to have to do this, but I guess I will.

The Adam changes don't change any of Adam's strengths. Meaning it's just another nonsense nerf and he'll still destroy all the same characters he destroys. If Adam is getting a nerf, it needs to either be to his backdash, OR adding more negative frames onto wake up cage. The Superman changes, while really good for Grundy and Doomsday, are extremely mediocre. Meaning he'll still be untouchable by 90% of the cast. If Superman gets any nerf at all it should be to his laser recovery. Which would make his insane corner damage go away, and would also make his zoning a lot more bearable. I'm going to ask that anyone trying to reply to this not downplay Superman's zoning, because I really don't want to get into that argument, it'll just make me salty. The Aquaman changes are completely biased, he doesn't need a trait change, it just needs a little bit longer of a cooldown, if anything at all. The Hawk girl buff would make her absolutely insane. The Deathstroke buff is biased and unneeded, that character is fine as he is and people need to stop downplaying him. And the Batman nerf doesn't change him at all, he'll still be ridiculous. The only thing it does is reduce the amount of chip damage he can cause while zoning, other than that his zoning is still nuts. If anything is nerfed on Batman it should be the bat cooldown time, OR making his projectile 1 hit along with reducing the hitbox a tiny bit on b23's explosion so it's easier to jump out of. And MOST of the changes I suggested aside from superman are completely dependent on not buffing the low tier. If the low tier is buffed these nerfs also change quite a bit. The suggested nerfs are just my opinions, you could go a million ways about balancing these characters, but I'd like to think what I suggested helps out the biggest amount of low tier characters.

I don't know why you didn't want to elaborate but you articulated your opinion well. I can see what your saying about Black Adam and Aquaman, DS zoning at mid screen is a tad unsafe at the moment imo, Superman is still a nightmare but at least it would help some terrible match ups against him.

I think if they buffed the low tiers to deal with the high tiers strongest tools while at the same time, nerfing said tools, it could create a unbalance in the other direction.

 

[SonicBoomBrad]

I don't know why you didn't want to elaborate but you articulated your opinion well. I can see what your saying about Black Adam and Aquaman, DS zoning at mid screen is a tad unsafe at the moment imo, Superman is still a nightmare but at least it would help some terrible match ups against him.

I think if they buffed the low tiers to deal with the high tiers strongest tools while at the same time, nerfing said tools, it could create a unbalance in the other direction.

Believe it or not, I actually don't enjoy arguing.

 

[Soulofsuikoden]

Believe it or not, I actually don't enjoy arguing.

I understand. It can be time consuming if the person or persons your talking to are being unreasonable. However I feel that the developers may read these kind of threads to get a feel for what the community are thinking for balance changes. It would be best if we all gathered out collection experiences to get to the heart of the problem on how to best solve bad match ups.

 

[TheSpore]

Considering I main HG, I'm going to comment on that buff you requested. Granting her the ability to air-block or have armour while flying is a step to making her broken. Yes she has match-ups that grounds her very horrid ways (mianly Sinestro). This is going back to what I've said and many others had said as well, YOU CANNOT RELY SOLELY ON HER TRAIT TO WIN A MATCH, you have to understand her ground game much more. The BG match-up, which I her a lot about is very winnable with HG as long as you utilize her ground game and not spend all day in the air. Yeah there are some match-ups where her game can dominate the match, but then allowing her to block or have armour, just makes those match-ups unwinnable by a large amount. Take Flash for example, he has attacks that can reach high enough to smack HG out of the air, if she can air block, then how in the hell is Flash going to ground her to work his rush game, which is integral to success in using the character. If DS' guns can be air-blocked, then there completely goes his best tool in his play-style, DS needs his guns to play keep away with HG, otherwise she would be able to walk all over him, hell most players already expect his sword flip and his wake-up options, which are highly punishable when blocked.

-EDIT- There is two significant fixes I see with HG and that is to make her dive kick a HKD and to fix the B2 issues by making it a true mid, so that is doesn't wiff due to a characters breathing patterns.

RunwayMafia, Espio

 

[Rampage254]

You guys should check out my balance suggestions. Now this is how you balance a game http://testyourmight.com/threads/rampage254s-ridiculous-mvc2-level-balance-suggestions-thread.37664/#post-1121556

 

[Brooklyn Static S]

Cyborg trait is shit! buff his trait a little tiny bit nd Scorpion let him stay shit he doesnt belong in Injustice anyway

 

[Chrishaspads]

cyborg- nothing needed
-_- gtf

 

[SaJa]

Nothing about Flash but I would like to add that Bane should be able to whiff punish Flash's charge MB by crouching.

Right now he can't do shit because the second hit of the charge MB doesn't whiff whereas it's a high move. DD can d2 punish the Flash's charge MB so there is no reason for Bane to be not able to do so.

 

[Solid]

No matter all the articles by Seth Killian and David Sirlin and common logic, we still get threads like this.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Considering I main HG, I'm going to comment on that buff you requested. Granting her the ability to air-block or have armour while flying is a step to making her broken. Yes she has match-ups that grounds her very horrid ways (mianly Sinestro). This is going back to what I've said and many others had said as well, YOU CANNOT RELY SOLELY ON HER TRAIT TO WIN A MATCH, you have to understand her ground game much more. The BG match-up, which I her a lot about is very winnable with HG as long as you utilize her ground game and not spend all day in the air. Yeah there are some match-ups where her game can dominate the match, but then allowing her to block or have armour, just makes those match-ups unwinnable by a large amount. Take Flash for example, he has attacks that can reach high enough to smack HG out of the air, if she can air block, then how in the hell is Flash going to ground her to work his rush game, which is integral to success in using the character. If DS' guns can be air-blocked, then there completely goes his best tool in his play-style, DS needs his guns to play keep away with HG, otherwise she would be able to walk all over him, hell most players already expect his sword flip and his wake-up options, which are highly punishable when blocked.

-EDIT- There is two significant fixes I see with HG and that is to make her dive kick a HKD and to fix the B2 issues by making it a true mid, so that is doesn't wiff due to a characters breathing patterns.

RunwayMafia, Espio

I actually really like his suggestion for HawkGirl. She's already one of the most unique fighters in a game already...why not give her the option to block in the air? I don't really think it would make her broken considering that if you are blocking stuff in the air, your trait is going to run out and you will drop sooner than you think. Also, I don't know if Duck Nation mentioned this back in the HG forums or not, but someone said that it would cost a bar of meter to utilize the air block...which would certainly make it fair. I think it would be hype to see HG be able to BAM...MB air block Zod's air charge move and now it's on! People already claim she's boring, lol.

At this point, like I addressed in my thread to NRS, I just want: B3 sped up by a few frames, B2 to be a TRUE MID, her whiff recovery from a MB Air Mace Toss not to be in the hundreds, and the more that this game has evolved and people have leveled up, I really want her mace tosses to have less recovery and be faster. Sometimes I feel like her zoning is a joke, ESPECIALLY from the ground.

 

[TheSpore]

I actually really like his suggestion for HawkGirl. She's already one of the most unique fighters in a game already...why not give her the option to block in the air? I don't really think it would make her broken considering that if you are blocking stuff in the air, your trait is going to run out and you will drop sooner than you think. Also, I don't know if Duck Nation mentioned this back in the HG forums or not, but someone said that it would cost a bar of meter to utilize the air block...which would certainly make it fair. I think it would be hype to see HG be able to BAM...MB air block Zod's air charge move and now it's on! People already claim she's boring, lol.

At this point, like I addressed in my thread to NRS, I just want: B3 sped up by a few frames, B2 to be a TRUE MID, her whiff recovery from a MB Air Mace Toss not to be in the hundreds, and the more that this game has evolved and people have leveled up, I really want her mace tosses to have less recovery and be faster. Sometimes I feel like her zoning is a joke, ESPECIALLY from the ground.

I guess to a sense you have justified it by giving it some kind give and take mechanic. I also agree I completely forgot about her B3 issue and yeah it feels like days when you recover from a MT on the ground.