Balance Suggestions: Perfect Legend, M2Dave, Forever King, THTB and PLAYING TO W1N

[KDZ]

A good superman will have to use lasers and breath just to make flash trying to get close from fullscreen again. And Flash has no projectile which means that he has to deal with f23 breath everytimes he goes in and again, Flash' string don't have a decent range beside his very slow b22.
I've seen KDZ against a flash, and it was fucking one sided lol. I believe he likes downplaying his main, especially since people saw what superman was capable of at EVO.

Dodge speed into trait isn't viable at all since the active frame are weird (working only in the middle of the string). Just try it in a real game and come back here. Also, if DS decide to MB his fire shot, you'll lose 20sec trait (for around 30sec round you will cry) and some life to get back fullscreen again with no option but dashing.

I love when people base matchups off of watching a terrible player. The only match you couldve seen of me vs a flash was at NLBC, against a terrible flash player. You haven't seen any match where I'm desperate for my life the entire match. There was even a guy at Vxg who raped me like 15-4 because he understood the matchup.

If I downplay my character, it's not nearly as much as people insanely overhype my character, to the point of looking at a top player vs scrub match and basing an opinion off of that

 

[Bildslash]

I stopped reading at "Nightwing staff spin nerfed to +6" and "Batman - No adjustments".

Lets just let pako and the boys do the adjustments...because half of these suggestions are based around people who don't play the characters, and protecting the ones they do play.

How many top 8 Majors has Nightwing been in?

This is what I was worried about...people are freaking the fuck out about a character because he has frame traps. There is a mechanic in this game designed to negate those frame traps. If we are going to make EX Staff Spin +6, lets make Doomsdays EX Venom +1

Same concept here and it's moronic.

Nightwing is a character that is not top 10. Not anymore. When the game first launched he was. Now there are too many other good characters to place him there. He is just outside of top 10.

If you want to give me a 7f d1 or 8f f2 in escrima, Nerf staff all you want. Hell, how about an anti air that isn't slow as balls? (escrima)

Let's just keep neutering Nightwing while Wonderwoman who has the exact same shit (in regards to her d1) except she does MUCH more damage meterless and has an OTG...

That's too much downplaying.

I guess until CD goes to anorher tourney NW will be under everyone's radar.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Nerf nightwings staff spin mb advantage but buff doomsday? Gtfo here -_- some of this was not unbiased.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

That's too much downplaying.

I guess until CD goes to anorher tourney NW will be under everyone's radar.

I dont think he was downplaying at all, there are characters waaay better than NW.

 

[187x]

I love when people base matchups off of watching a terrible player. The only match you couldve seen of me vs a flash was at NLBC, against a terrible flash player. You haven't seen any match where I'm desperate for my life the entire match. There was even a guy at Vxg who raped me like 15-4 because he understood the matchup.

If I downplay my character, it's not nearly as much as people insanely overhype my character, to the point of looking at a top player vs scrub match and basing an opinion off of that

if he was a terrible flash player why did he win? I guess everyone who you lose to a terrible player because you didn't know the mu lol the ignorance. Your character is #1 in the game, How the hell is superman overhyped....

 

[SaJa]

I love when people base matchups off of watching a terrible player. The only match you couldve seen of me vs a flash was at NLBC, against a terrible flash player. You haven't seen any match where I'm desperate for my life the entire match. There was even a guy at Vxg who raped me like 15-4 because he understood the matchup.

If I downplay my character, it's not nearly as much as people insanely overhype my character, to the point of looking at a top player vs scrub match and basing an opinion off of that

Probably, but I was just answering to a guy taking 1 player opinion (you) to generalize what superman vs flash matchup is.

 

[Jeffreys]

if he was a terrible flash player why did he win? I guess everyone who you lose to a terrible player because you didn't know the mu lol the ignorance. Your character is #1 in the game, How the hell is superman overhyped....

You didn't read what he wrote did you...

 

[187x]

You didn't read what he wrote did you...

"The only match you couldve seen of me vs a flash was at NLBC, against a terrible flash player."

i read did u? can we stop the cock riding and lets focus on the great kdz SKILL-GAP

 

[BGMD]

Since judging by lack of your suggestions and total unfamiliarity with Lobo, here are some things to get lost in depths of this thread that majority of Lobo players agrees on to get adjusted. These would be more fixes than buffs.


1. fixing the hitbox of 21 string... second part of the string is overhead, but despite seeing the chain hitting the opponent, sometimes it randomly whiffs on crouching opponents, Lobo gets punished using one of his main oki strings

2. armor on MB hook charge - armor on this move doesn't activate until chain hit the floor, very often with this move you get stuffed while losing meter, meaning that meter is taken before armor is given which doesn't make any sense
personally I'd argue that even additional hit of armor on MB version of this move would be fine

3. hook charge is clashable on it's own - Lobo's primary get in tool, equivalent of this would clashable Grundy's walking corpse, or BA lightning (this is getting fixed apparently)

4. improved party crasher (facedive move), this move is designed to put opponent in guessing situation (it's non comboable overhead) but it gets beaten by d1's, it's stupid... wakeup I get OK, but this?

suggestions for some minor buffs

5. he has no wakeup attack at all, at least some invulnerability frames on something would be nice, preferably hook charge

6. a few frames of b2 overhead

7. ability to stack trait up to 2 shells (it's a shotgun after all) - probably not essential, but...
even with your shell loaded, you can still do reload animation that grants you nothing, it's kinda stupid
startup on it is fairly long (punishable by any tracking move or fast projectile) and Lobo has a few ways to safely load it but with giving up damage, this would be extremely useful since it would further increase Lobo's mix up potential... trait low shot is launcher, Lobo can do 2, low shot (mid, low) and 21 low shot (mid, over, low). He can get 40% from this, but from very hard to do b1 toss (cancel window is probably tightest in the game) link because it launches opponent away for Lobo... in matches majority of Lobo player would go for 21 hook charge for smaller, but consistent 27% meterless and oki
I have managed to do a combo with two trait shots used, and it scales maybe 1-2% for second shot, so there is no fear that he would get into 60% midscreen combo territory
let him work his way in and give him more options when he gets there

 

[Bildslash]

I dont think he was downplaying at all, there are characters waaay better than NW.

I strongly believe NW players still haven't fleshed out the character to realize how stupid he can really be.

Most of his standard tools are safe on block or create frame traps. Has good reach and speed on his normals, builds meter like crazy, etc.

That might not seem like much in the face of SM and BA, but then that's a general balance issue the game has and applies to the whole roster.

 

[Jeffreys]

"The only match you couldve seen of me vs a flash was at NLBC, against a terrible flash player."

i read did u? can we stop the cock riding and lets focus on the great kdz SKILL-GAP

He was comparing the flash at NLBC who was terrible, to another Flash player at VXG who raped him through many games. You should read more carefully next time.

 

[187x]

He was comparing the flash at NLBC who was terrible, to another Flash player at VXG who raped him through many games. You should read more carefully next time.

fixed

 

[MkFinest]

Kdz's ego is huge bigger then tom's?

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Revolver is right, this isn't like an end all be all actual patch notes these are simply suggestions, maybe none of these at all will make it into the next patch, who knows. As long as the discussion is insightful and constructive, there's no need to jump to conclusions and take it too seriously.

NightwingDayZero, I admit I do not know a lot about Nightwing, that's why I staged the question to you. I am not making the suggestion so do not ask me to make conjectures as to why someone else wanted it changed. The only reason I mentioned fringe cases in my original response is because not every situation and match up is so cut and dry, you explained it to the best of your ability and I have an understanding from your perspective now.

I quoted your post, but forgot to tag the people I was really addressing. It was 1am after a long day, my apologies.

 

[Jeffreys]

Tom's ego is more like... "I am a terrible player, why do I even have this game."

Tom /wrists

 

[redeyes]

Nerf WW's OTG that only works in the corner and only leads to full combo if MB'd
and da fuck you mean leads to 40% style resets? have you seen the pushback on her otg? she only gets a b2 and all the top 5 can beat her out of it.
(f2 supes)
(b1 GL)
(parry bman)

leave supe's ambiguous otg thats full combo midscreen / corner on hit nonMB

K

 

[Zyphox]

PL wants flash buffs? lol i wish hopefully those buffs are finalized before SJ. if the flash gets those buffs PL listed not even MUFFIN MUGGERS will be able to downplay him. i do think his speed dodge needs a buff doe. PLAYING TO W1N do you realize that flash only has access to those 1337 combos every 20 seconds? and that during the "2nd round clash and supers reset the recovery timer down to 0? nerfing his damage would be unbelievably stupid, unless you make it so its every 15 seconds or 10 seconds, pick your poison. in some MU its extremely hard to even get in on a GOOD player, getting in on supes, GL, batman, isn't easy so now he has reduced damage? think that one through for a bit. i am against nerfing rushdown only characters because guess what? we all have universal MB armor moves, push block and invincible backdashes, what do we all have against zoning? yeah..... think that through a bit.

 

[shaowebb]

I like this list. I especially like the ability to fake out Bane's Raging Charge with Cancels and agree that Lex's zoning needs better speed. He's got potential, but its too hard to get his screen control going. This would help him a lot.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Maybe I missed the Arrow discussion but I want to clarify his strengths and weaknesses.

Hitbox on d4 when loading:
is a standing hitbox meaning counter zoning can be difficult. This is a must fix.

Block string supers:
Whole cast can back dash supers on block. Only true block string reset is b13. B13 is a 50/50 guess. If the second hit lands then the super will whiff making GA lose all meter. On block the super will land (very small window to backdash but it is possible).

To prove a point, how many block string supers have you seen Chris G do in majors? Even when he had like 3 or 4 different ones he didn't use them. leave whats left (b13) in.

Decrease startup on slide to allow juggle combos to be completed. this will whiff many times due to high gravity. the corner push this grants is important.

Ok I'm done with Arrow

 

[MkFinest]

PL wants flash buffs? lol i wish hopefully those buffs are finalized before SJ. if the flash gets those buffs PL listed not even MUFFIN MUGGERS will be able to downplay him. i do think his speed dodge needs a buff doe. PLAYING TO W1N do you realize that flash only has access to those 1337 combos every 20 seconds? and that during the "2nd round clash and supers reset the recovery timer down to 0? nerfing his damage would be unbelievably stupid, unless you make it so its every 15 seconds or 10 seconds, pick your poison. in some MU its extremely hard to even get in on a GOOD player, getting in on supes, GL, batman, isn't easy so now he has reduced damage? think that one through for a bit. i am against nerfing rushdown only characters because guess what? we all have universal MB moves, push block and invincible backdashes, what do we all have against zoning? yeah..... think that through a bit.

if you don't get top 4 at SJ. Where no longer stream monster buddys
No PRESSURE!

 

[Zyphox]

two touches and your dead. if he baits out a wakeup move he can punish... safe over head and low if he cancels to kick thing after d1d2. frame data says b21 (or f21 i forget ) is -9 but that is not true.

STAHP!, f21 is duckable after the over head and at that point is -20, its very true, and it says -7 so if you block is high and i don't do anything else a 7 frame move can punish me. also its one touch and you're dead really trust me he won't be nerfed, backdash push block MB B3 and learn the MU.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Here, let me make a useful post.

Characters who have all the tools they need to win any match
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Deathstroke, Aquaman, Batgirl, Nightwing, Catwoman, Black Adam, Killer Frost, Doomsday, Flash, Green Lantern, Cyborg

Characters who perform well in most matches, but have a very difficult time against a select handful
Hawkgirl, Sinestro, Ares, Lex, Bane, Grundy

Characters who lack the tools they need to win consistently in most of their matches
Shazam, Joker, Lobo

THE SECOND TWO GROUPS ARE WHO PEOPLE SHOULD BE FOCUSING ON. Pick out the bad matchups for the people in the second group, and consider how to adjust the third to find ways for them to play their game effectively.

I'm aware I did not place Raven, Arrow, Harley, MMH, Zod or Scorpion, and it's because I don't feel I - I mean this in a direct and personal sense - have enough information to place them on that list. Somebody no doubt does, and should.

Edit: And please refrain from the urge to throw ad hominem insults at me if you think I've misplaced somebody. I'm not perfect, and it won't be productive.

Nightwing loses to Green Lantern 7-3. I would even argue an 8-2 in this MU. Nightwing loses this matchup based on Air Oa's Rocket and B1 alone.

Nightwing loses to Superman 6-4
Nightwing loses to Hawkgirl 7-3
Nightwing loses to Cyborg 6-4
Nightwing loses to Sinestro 6-4

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Gruff Bundy:

He does well vs majority of cast but has 5 or 6 MU that start at 3-7 and go backwards to 9-1 or 10-0. These characters make the presence of Grundy at tournaments extremely rare. (Exception Tyrant) Granted Tyrants success, that is a testament to his skill but the reality is, these are among some of the worst MU in the game.

Superman, Hawkgirl, cyborg, WW, Black adam, and Batman

I'm not saying I save a solution but I want to make aware that this powerhouse has an achilles heal that needs to be looked at.

 

[NightwingDayZero]

Gruff Bundy:

He does well vs majority of cast but has 5 or 6 MU that start at 3-7 and go backwards to 9-1 or 10-0. These characters make the presence of Grundy at tournaments extremely rare. (Exception Tyrant) Granted Tyrants success, that is a testament to his skill but the reality is, these are among some of the worst MU in the game.

Superman, Hawkgirl, cyborg, WW, Black adam, and Batman

I'm not saying I save a solution but I want to make aware that this powerhouse has an achilles heal that needs to be looked at.

Grundy has the same problem Nightwing has. He does very well against most of the cast, but his losing MU's happen to be the most popular tournament characters.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

Grundy has the same problem Nightwing has. He does very well against most of the cast, but his losing MU's happen to be the most popular tournament characters.

Well I'd say he has a "similar" problem. Honestly, NW mobility already gets him further in these MU than Grundy can go. Grundy's 2-8 is NW 4-6