Match-up Discussion m2dave's Deathstroke Match Up Chart

[xInfra Deadx]

Eh, if Superman and Black Adam ever get normalized and GL and Aqua stay the same I think theres a good chance they will start running the game. Aquaman is still very likely top 5 even after the normalizations due to the fact he beats a good amount of the cast.

Since MK isn't probably going to be a main game at any tournament in the forseeable future, I probably will put some more time in Injustice. I probably will work on another char though to help Aquamans bad matchups though.

Aquaman has bad matchups? This is somewhat news...

 

[Dizzy]

Aquaman has bad matchups? This is somewhat news...

Indeed, from other top 5 chars

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Indeed, from other top 5 chars

Okay, I thought you were going to say other characters gave Aquaman trouble.

 

[Dizzy]

Okay, I thought you were going to say other characters gave Aquaman trouble.

No, not really, the main ones I had in mind were Superman, BA and GL. Although, this doesn't have anything to do with Deathstroke lol

 

[AK Harold]

Flash is 5-5 or 6-4 Flash. 5-5 if ds player has combos down and close up game. 6-4 if they do not. Also stage select and saving 1mb for pushblock.

 

[KIllaByte]

I've never seen anyone in the Harley Quinn forum suggest that she doesn't lose 4-6.
Your theory is on point.
Her forward dash has the best recovery in the game- but that is used for subtleties in movement, and helps her to be unpredictable and create ambiguity in offense and cross ups.
But this forward dash also covers the least distance. By a lot.
Against DS, a player needs to beat his zoning rhythm and force him to a corner, but Harley's dash is not equipped for that.
The other option is the Silly slide- which does cover a LOT of distance, but Harley is guaranteed to be shot out of silly slide due to its high hitbox and poor recovery, unless she tries using this from a distance where the silly slide xx tantrum stance kick combo will not carry her all the way to the opponent.
Harley does have vastly superior meterless combo damage, and better close range pressure- we all know this- but not by leaps and bounds. Deathstroke's wakeups usually being successful forces out play-doctor combo enders for a bonus 10% and leaving Deathstroke standing in a close range neutral game where Harley is slightly more likely to access damage again, considering the range.
One Deathstroke combo pick-up, and Harley is sent to 2D hell.
Stage selection plays a big role. The unbreakable pipe on Atlantis immensely helps Harley here.

 

[Mikman360]

This is the most productive thing m2dave has posted since the nerfs. Finally I can do something other than facepalm.

A lot of what he posted, however, is fairly common knowledge for DS at this point. On his judgement, I disagree with Flash being THAT bad (it's still bad :\) and Raven being bad at all (I'd say even).

I think us DS players can admit (for the most part) that Superman, Batgirl, KF, and Flash are out of his favor.

(Btw, tell me I wasn't the only one who came into this topic expecting "DS loses this matchup 0-10" for every character)

 

[ForeverKing]

According to this match-up chart, Deathstroke isn't low tier after all. Possibly upper-mid

Black Adam 5-5
Notes: Deathstroke can somewhat limit Black Adam unlike the vast majority of characters.

You used to think pre-patch Deathstroke lost this match, what made you change it to 5-5 now that Deathstroke is nerfed?

 

[Duck Nation]

I still believe Superman is even. Hell, I asked KDZ about it for a Superman perspective, and he thought DS might actually have a very narrow edge.

 

[M2Dave]

According to this match-up chart, Deathstroke isn't low tier after all. Possibly upper-mid.

He is. I agree. But have you noticed how all the characters who were top tier on day one are still top tier (i.e., Batman, Black Adam, Killer Frost, Superman, etc.) today except Deathstroke? In my opinion, NRS ought to compensate Deathstroke for the normalized low gunshots in one of the following manners.

1. Improved trait OR
2. Much better recovery on the rifle OR
3. Sword spin provides a safe jump on hit

You used to think pre-patch Deathstroke lost this match, what made you change it to 5-5 now that Deathstroke is nerfed?

Actually, I always thought that pre-patch Deathstroke vs. pre-patch Black Adam was an even match up. Deathstroke is one of the very few characters who has the ability to force Black Adam to approach him at all times. The low gunshots nerf is not very prevalent in this match up because Black Adam cannot punish the move on block anyway and as far as I can tell the whiff recovery frames have remained the same, which is very important against Black Adam. Of course, the sword flip is excellent and now punishes the regular dive kick at almost all heights. What makes this match up so tough is still Black Adam's damage output, but after trying to use other characters on Black Adam, I have realized how well Deathstroke performs.

 

[Crathen]

Mustard and I think the Deathstroke-Bane matchup is a 5-5.

Due to the dash buff, Deathstroke can only keep Bane out for so long until he inevitably gets in, and the armor properties of banes venom specials stop deathstroke from being able to wakeup with sword spin, meaning the wakeup option out of Banes pressure becomes a huge gamble given you must wakeup with a heavily unsafe sword flip. spin is straight up not an option in the corner, but you can occasionally escape with it midscreen. Meaning neither character has the edge on Deathstrokes knockdown.

J3 when Bane is venomed is also easy to stuff due to venom upper. Deathstroke has to rely on hitting bane when he either has no Venom, or is debuffed. Should the bane player manage his Venom correctly, it becomes very hard for Deathstroke to play his main game.

That said, When bane IS debuffed, gunshots always work a treat, and if you can end your combo in focus right as banes venom is about to run out, you can cause serious unavoidable damage. Not to mention you can still zone bane to an extent. Definitely a character I feel you have to try and keep off you.

Yeah i'm on the fence in this matchup , Deathstroke trait works wonders in this matchup tho since Bane can't punish it from the b1u2 d2 32 setup and his only way to prevent a gunshot or MG is to go lv3 Venom and wakeup Charge , he can jump it but then MG or MB quickfire gets him or simply gets him AA with SF , funny thing that i don't see mentioned is that when DS has trait active for some unknown reason Bane can't duck quickfire , so once he gets hit by 1 quickfire he has to eat them all ( unless he goes to lv3 and charge obviously ) if he tries to jump he gets AA by quickfire and get knocked down fullscreen and DS can get MG.

Another thing to know is that wehn bane is on venom and you block a doublepunch you can always stuff his next doublepunch ( a common Bane player strat ) with f2xxSS since it will stuff the armor on his specials , he can backdash it but that's in DS favour so he can't continue pressuring , if you want to make a read you could also jump back 2 into full combo if you're sure another DP is coming.

Also ending combos in 23 gives a good baiting scenario vs his wakeups , basically you can dash in and jump over him and this will make Venom uppercut and all his other wakeups whiff and you can punish him with guns unless he WA with double punch ( you can get a MG if he Venom Uppercuts.

Taking a small step and MB f3 after 23 ender also negates / punishes his wakeups unless he's on lv3 venom , double punch gets beat since the armor runs out , Venom uppercut is absorbed and you can punish him on recovery.

Any guns that AA him back to 3/4 screen /fullscreen basically guarantees a trait wich he cannot punish even if he techrolls.

Right now i feel it's 6-4 DS favour , but it's true i havent played a very good Bane yet.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Sinestro 6-4
Notes: I think Deathstroke beats Sinestro. He cannot zone unless he has trait, which is not easy to charge against Deathstroke.

I hate to aid downplaying, but I don't see DS beating Sinestro. They both have the same problem- they cannot zone at a certain range because their projectiles become punishable. Trades are even, and slightly in ones favor when they choose to MB. DS is the one that is forced to get in unless he has a big life lead. 5-5 imo.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

dont really agree with raven. raven seems to do pretty bad agasint DS up close from what ive seen. she doesnt really have anything that fast and her wakeups are pretty dogshit against armor and you an really blow her up for waking up, even though i dont think she really ever should. i personally think as soon as you get in its curtains.

superman im unsure of i think its possibly 5-5 but i dont know. i play KDZ on a regular basis but i dont think hes beating me because of his character, he just makes better reads than i do. i dont think f2 is that bad for DS since after f23 breath he can jump out of it if he blocks breath standing (maybe crouching, when breath was +1 this also worked) but im not sure if that really makes that big of a difference. he seems pretty easy to counterzone if he tries to play lasers and he really needs to respect guns early game.

Killer Frost i also disagree with. even though she can punish low guns, whatever. i think shes pretty easy to read from full screen. and i have the same general philosphy on dealing with characters that can punish guns. you have to make them want to do shit so they cant just sit there and block guns all day. airdashes in this game are super telegraphed and are mad easy to jump and punish. with that being said, i feel like KF movement is pretty telegraphed and although she can punish guns anywhere, you can also punish icebergs anywhere and jb3 and punish slide (not sure if you can do it on reaction but its kinda easy to yomi it because thats really all KF players give a shit about). also you can low gun interrupt slide which isnt bad. when i block slide i just to just do f23 or d1 to start pressure.

agree or disagree but thats just my 2 cents

I hate to aid downplaying, but I don't see DS beating Sinestro. They both have the same problem- they cannot zone at a certain range because their projectiles become punishable. Trades are even, and slightly in ones favor when they choose to MB. DS is the one that is forced to get in unless he has a big life lead. 5-5 imo.

i feel that its slight advantage deathstroke just because he has a pretty solid rushdown game and i havent seen one developed for sinestro yet. i need to grind that one out a little more

 

[Mt Mutombo]

DS Sword flip fully invincible my ass...you know how many DS players i've caught with MMH orbs on wakeup? Every single one of them.

 

[Crathen]

I hate to aid downplaying, but I don't see DS beating Sinestro. They both have the same problem- they cannot zone at a certain range because their projectiles become punishable. Trades are even, and slightly in ones favor when they choose to MB. DS is the one that is forced to get in unless he has a big life lead. 5-5 imo.

Imho it's 6-4 DS , zoning wars are about even yes , but if DS can get trait out even if i trade with a fear blast ( obviously not MB fear blast ) he wins the zoning game since Sinestro cannot duck the 2nd hit of quickfire and once he's hit with 1 qf DS gets other 4 to a max of 5 quickfires if he stands there or if he jumps he gets knocked down into MB quickfires or MG , tho sinestro can punish trait very easily if he has his own trait out , also Sinestro cannot punish some of DS setups into trait other than with a mere fear blast and that's if he doesn't techroll the b1u2 d2 b3 trait setup.

Rushdown wise Deathstroke is better ( bar Sinestro with trait obviously ) and because Sinestro wakeup game is kinda ass , 23 ender into crossups ( some of them avoid Arachnid and punish it ) is a problem for sinestro , also MB f3 kills Sinestro wakeups.

 

[Axel_Redd]

Was playing against a friends superman earlier with my deathstroke, honestly i believe deathstroke wins in the zoning department, but for the love of god do NOT let supes get his offense started.

and yes, pls buff his rifle, or his low gunshots or even air shots, Trait, something, anything!

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Imho it's 6-4 DS , zoning wars are about even yes , but if DS can get trait out even if i trade with a fear blast ( obviously not MB fear blast ) he wins the zoning game since Sinestro cannot duck the 2nd hit of quickfire and once he's hit with 1 qf DS gets other 4 to a max of 5 quickfires if he stands there or if he jumps he gets knocked down into MB quickfires or MG , tho sinestro can punish trait very easily if he has his own trait out , also Sinestro cannot punish some of DS setups into trait other than with a mere fear blast and that's if he doesn't techroll the b1u2 d2 b3 trait setup.

Rushdown wise Deathstroke is better ( bar Sinestro with trait obviously ) and because Sinestro wakeup game is kinda ass , 23 ender into crossups ( some of them avoid Arachnid and punish it ) is a problem for sinestro , also MB f3 kills Sinestro wakeups.

DS will NEVER be able to get trait against Sinestro. It's a free shackles on sight into damage or trait charge. DS rush down is only better when Sinestro doesn't have trait. Also, even if you get the trait out Sinestro gets free trait build or Fear blasts after it wears off since the bullets become ineffective.

 

[Krayzie]

5-5 vs Catwoman

 

[Crathen]

DS will NEVER be able to get trait against Sinestro. It's a free shackles on sight into damage or trait charge. DS rush down is only better when Sinestro doesn't have trait. Also, even if you get the trait out Sinestro gets free trait build or Fear blasts after it wears off since the bullets become ineffective.

Fair point but when engaged in a fullscreen zoning war between fear blast then crouch to avoid quickfire and block lgs you may not punish it correctly and if i block a shackle or fear blast ( non MB ) quickfire ( MB even better ) can get me very good damage or a knockdown if you try jumping it into some other guaranteed damage.

When trait runs out i don't mind letting you chip me out a few % or make you build trait since i've probably taken a good amount of Sinestros lifebar ( of course that depends how the lifelead are in that situations ) , other weird thing...if i MB MG the granade actually hits even in trait cooldown so you want to watch out for that too if you think you're building trait superfree.

And i've said DS gets free trait after certain knockdowns , so if i get momentum you're either burning meter for fearblast MB to avoid getting quickfired or you panic and get knocked down or give me free damage.

 

[M2Dave]

I hate to aid downplaying, but I don't see DS beating Sinestro. They both have the same problem- they cannot zone at a certain range because their projectiles become punishable. Trades are even, and slightly in ones favor when they choose to MB. DS is the one that is forced to get in unless he has a big life lead. 5-5 imo.

Deathstroke's zoning and anti-zoning are superior to Sinestro's unless Sinestro has an active trait and/or lots of meter to spend on MB fear blast. I believe he who has less meter is forced to approach.

At that specific range where both of their projectiles become punishable, Deathstroke's regular and MB high gunshots are a superior punish in ease and damage than Sinestro's regular and MB fear blast. Deathstroke can also punish boulder and shackles anywhere on the screen while low gunshots are safe against Sinestro mid screen.

I do not think that it is debatable that Deathstroke has the superior wake up and normal attacks in this match.

I heard that Sinestro was really good in the beta, so I assume that NRS panicked and "normalized" everything about him. He should not be this unsafe. It is pathetic that melee characters like Batman and Superman zone much better than Sinestro (and Deathstroke) in many match ups. This game has a tremendous problem with its lack of variety.

 

[Crathen]

5-5 vs Catwoman

Mind explaining your reasons?

 

[Icebaby]

He is. I agree. But have you noticed how all the characters who were top tier on day one are still top tier (i.e., Batman, Black Adam, Killer Frost, Superman, etc.) today except Deathstroke?

Um Ares, Scorpion, and DoomsDay would like to say Hi.

Ares - Was the Cyrax of the game and dropped down tiers after nerf.

Scorpion - Ahem. No need to go into detail as you and your friends were in charge of the Nerf Train.

DoomsDay - Splash hitbox drastically nerfed, string chip (1,1,2) diminished, and OTG chop after sweep removed.


You were saying?

 

[Duck Nation]

I tend to agree with Krayzie that Catwoman's a 5-5. Most Catwoman players are dumb and try to MB cat dash with wild abandon, but if they just stay patient, work their way in and make DS contend with a good LGS punish (into combo) and her insane reach j2, they can do a lot better. It's a methodical matchup for players who tend to not want to be methodical.

 

[1man3letters]

Scorpion ?-?
Notes: Does anybody even use this fool any more?

...nice chart though.

 

[PunkMafia83]

I think DS slightly beats Raven. He can stuff nearly all her wake ups with a well timed jump in 3. If you can keep ds in front its not too bad. Thats just what I have noticed unless I am missing something in my Raven knowledge.