Improving Injustice!

[chief713]

Or they need to create a stage that has zero interactables so people at least have a 50/50 shot of not having to play a stage with them.

I would never complain about interactables again if this existed.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

not to mention...with not so good AA in this game, you are forced to many times dash away as people cross you up. Well when you dash you are no longer in a position to punish their jump attempt. If I were able to walk faster then unpunishable jump ins become punishable.

On another note. moves with pushback on block become unpunishable by most characters except those with a fast advancing normal (Which many characters don't have).

Its a very flawed system IMO.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Or they need to create a stage that has zero interactables so people at least have a 50/50 shot of not having to play a stage with them.

Or they could just fix the option where 1 player can turn them off. Because as it stands, both players have to turn them off for it to work.

 

[tataki]

• Pushblock should be free

Pushblocking is a terrible mechanic in general and only useful in very specific and extreme cases, like forcing the player to rely on assists in games like MVC2/MVC3/SG, where pushblocking doesn't work during blockstun from an assist.

Put it in a 1v1 game (and limited-SF-like-movement game specifically) and it basically prevents close ranged interations from from being played and ends up turning the game to shit. I'm willing to bet NRS only put it as a fail-safe mechanism against possible major oversights in development, and made it generally useless on purpose by having it cost an exaggerated amount of meter every time used.

I think they had 3 design principles when making this game:
1. "MK9's movement ended up too complex and technical for your average joe to utilize. SF4 is popular and people have an easier time understanding and utilizing that game's movement aspect, so let's sort of copy it."
2. "MK9's string system was easy to use and it let every player easily launch for fun combos. Let's keep it like this in Injustice."
3. "So we have this new schtick called interactables. We want players to respect them and care about the positioning to use them and to avoid them. Let's make characters move slowly so that they are impossible to avoid on reaction."


If you compared these 3 principles to how many other fighting games operate, they indeed make the game simpler, but they also make Injustice what it is, removing emphasis from unique character interactions and putting it in the interactables instead.

I can think of changes that will make Injustice more complex but they'll also make it more similar to other fighting games and probably move away from the developer's unique vision for the game. How to improve Injustice while keeping the same level of "Injustice-esque" is beyond me at the moment, so be warned when you read the list:

1. Replace the forward DASH with a forward RUN. (This may sound a bit crazy but I'd like to see this type of change playing out before resorting to the safer "increase walk speed". What I have in mind is similar to K-Groove CVS2.) Better movement also allows you to design characters to not have good anti-airs without screwing them over. In general it allows for more variety in design and for more character arch-types to exist.
2. Balance the risk-reward between each characters' strings correctly. The hits that lead to the biggest reward on hit (launchers) and block (frame advantage) should be the ones that are hardest to hit with i.e. have worse range (think borderline point blank range) and/or the slowest startup speed. Also make normals advance less if at all. In the case of specials/ex moves that start full combos, make it so that only the heavier normals can combo to it.
3. Have throw range small but make sure they lead to stronger damage/oki and have a shorter break window. Basically make it harder to get in throw range but more rewarding once you can enforce a throw. Also remove all possible option selects with throws or throw breaks unless have a very specific plan in mind. Regular throws are a 2D fighting game's standard mixup tool so they need to be useful as a possible option, yet never the ideal one.
4. Reduce the distance backdashes cover.
5. Remake the wager system. A mechanic that causes both players to literally sit on a full bar of meter is bad. The decision making isn't really smarter than the usual fighting game interactions you can have with meter management and cool shit to do with it, and an 8 minute cutscene once or twice every match does not fit a fighting game. MK9's breakers were short and to the point, and I'd rather have them instead.
6. Get rid of standardizations. Possible unique character interactions are sacrificed in favor of things that produce the same result for all characters, like the clash system and interactables.

 

[TJ Casters]

Definitely the walk speed buff. I see where you guys are coming from with the free pushblock, but that really suits Marvel, and that game is very different from Injustice. There are too many characters that would have trouble if that was instituted. I like the D2 buff idea. They should really change up the useless strings. As it stands, there is no need to memorize ALL of a character's strings.

 

[Red Venom]

Less damaging interactables, trait timer stopping during animations and variable health values for each character as opposed to standardized health. Also, meter gain when blocking. That not existing already is really kinda absurd.

Superman wins the round with 75% trait combo in the corner. Starts the next round with full trait and instantly mb f3. 75% round 2 GG hold dat shit

 

[Sage Leviathan]

snip of genius ideas

I just... here... take all my internet cookies.

*cries tears of love and affection*

 

[chief713]

Bane pumps venom to finish a round. It drains and he starts the next round on debuff and gets rushed down and bodied with a simple bnb 75% round 2 GG still holding dat shit anyway

 

[187x]

Lately a lot of people have been complaining about something in regards to Injustice. Some people say Superman or other characters are broken or too good, other people say there's problems with the actual design of the game, and then some people say there needs to be universal gameplay changes.

I'm not here to lecture anyone because I too have complained about the game in some way or another. But, I have gotten tired of all the complaining though as it seems every single topic on TYM these days either starts out as complaining or turns into complaining. And I don't want to complain about the complaining either so I decided to attempt to make a constructive thread on what is needed to improve the game.

Now, I have no illusions that this will somehow be the one thread on TYM that is constructive, or that everyone will post reasonable responses in a constructive manner. But I hope you guys at least try and take this seriously and not just troll like you do in every other thread, lol. I want this thread to try and stay generally positive, if such a thing is even possible.

What I want is your opinion on gameplay elements that you think need to be altered in order to make improvements with this game. I'm not talking about balance changes because those are always all over the place and usually there's 1 decent idea out of 100. So please refrain from posting character specific stuff.

I love Injustice and I'm having fun with it, but think it could be so much better with a few adjustments here and there. I'm not trying to get the game that I want or trying to buff MY characters or anything like that. I just think that this game has so much potential it's missing out on by just barely missing the mark on a few things. I also want to say I'm not a game designer, I'm not a game tester, I'm just a player with my own opinions and can only speak to MY opinions.

With that said, here's my thoughts on what I would improve/change:

Universal Gameplay Changes:

1. Faster walk speed - I think the number one thing that would really improve this game on a fundamental level is universally increasing the walk speed for every character. This would help in more than one area. It would help against zoning by allowing you to simply walk in between projectiles. You can already do this, but the walk speed is so slow that they will have already built so much meter, done some chip damage, and ran out the clock... all while you do nothing but try and advance on them. Another area this would help out is the footsies. Arguably the weakest part of Injustice is the lack of solid footsies. With the walk speed being as slow as it is, and dashes having longer recovery, you don't get very strong footsies in this game. This is also due to jump ins being really powerful, but one of the other reasons jumping is so prevalent is because it's the only way you can get that mid range mobility. Walking inches you across the screen, and dashes jolt you pretty far but have a lot of recovery, so that mid range distance is really only covered by jumping. The walk speed is also one of the reasons why advancing normals are so good in this game (Superman's f23, for example).

2. Another Universal d2 Buff - The original d2 buff was really good and really helped the game a lot. But I think they need to be beefed just a little more to really discourage jumping. Jumping being the first and best option would be okay if you could be punish for a easily readable jump-in attempt. But a lot of the time, you can know for a fact that they're going to jump at you, and still either trade with your anti-air, or flat out lose to their jump-in. The d2 buff helped a lot, but there's still very little risk jumping in since the d2 anti-air (for a lot of characters), just isn't as consistent as I think it ought to be. D2 just needs one more little buff and I think it would be perfect!

3. Starting out with one bar of meter - I recently heard this mentioned by I think Perfect Legend. He made a great point on how you would actually be able to MB B3 at the beginning of a match to catch some people who always try to get a quick first hit if we were to start off with a bar of meter. It would be a whole other level of yomi when you actually can do MB attacks at the start of the match, much like in MK9. It would also increase the pace of the match a bit not having to build that initial first bar of meter.

4. Normalize Interactables! - I really honestly do love interactables and think they're a good addition to this game. They add a lot, but being SO good they also take away a little. I don't want them nerfed so they're not ever used, not at all. I want people to use them all the time, just as much as they do now. But, instead of 15%, maybe only do 10%. Instead of a really big hitbox, make it a medium sized hitbox. Just small "normalizations" to make them not so overbearing. Again, I really want to stress how much I want interactables to stay a big part of Injustice. I just don't want them being the main focus of the match.

There's some more stuff that I would like changed (such as adding more recovery to moves so that they can be punished), but these are the main 4 for me. This thread may have been a terrible idea, but who knows, maybe something good can come out of it!

those are the things why i hate the game, I hope we get faster walkspeed and real anti airs. Fuck nerfing characters where are the universal buffs at?

 

[Bildslash]

NO

NO NO NO NO NO

The clash system as it is already screws rushdown characters. You get in just to get clashed and then you have to get back and make up that life they gained. Increasing the amount you gain would not help comebacks, it would kill them.

You're giving up meter for life. Meter is more important. The change I propose only benefits the player willing to spend all 4 bars of meter, the rest is virtually the same as the current system.

Looks like you read "increase life gain" and flipped out without checking the numbers I provided and the current numbers.

 

[shaowebb]

Everyone's against the free pushblock and I agree with your arguments in the current meta. As is though I feel that if the rest of the changes on my list occurred that rushdown and rushdown oriented gadget characters would get stronger. This is why I say you may as well make it free, but honestly...yeah only if the rest of that stuff I listed happens and only if they fixed the "zoning is too strong" issue I have. That issue is so drastic I dont even know how you'd fix it without some major changes across the board. If they did then yeah you'd need pushblock on some folks. As is though the way zoning is setup is so deeply ingrained into the balance of all the moves I'll likely never see it lower in strength.

I understand the game just fine...I just dont agree with a lot of the things in it currently and wish it was more in your face rather than in and out. I keep bouncing back to play KoF XIII in those moments...

 

[Rathalos]

Or they could just fix the option where 1 player can turn them off. Because as it stands, both players have to turn them off for it to work.

But then that would be unfair to people who like them.

Since the game defaults to them on, and the game is designed around them being in the meta, it should have to be a conscious choice from both players to turn it off.

Having a stage with out interactables would as least make it a 50/50, instead of one player always winning.

 

[Bildslash]

What if MB B3 / F3 absorbed 1 hit completely (no hit, no damage) like a parry?

That would alleviate the recurring problem of dealing with zoning and interactables.

 

[shaowebb]

What if MB B3 / F3 absorbed 1 hit completely (no hit, no damage) like a parry?

That would alliviate the recurring problem of dealing with zoning and interactables.

That wouldn't be bad...it'd depend on how you balanced the recovery and startup of MB versions though. If MB B3/F3 costs you meter its still rewarding the opponent as they are depleting your resources, but if the parry cancelled into stuff on success it might open it up as a useful tool. If you simply lost a bar and were at negative frames though it wouldn't truly work as a parry though. If they could do it, I'd be down for this. Not certain how it'd work on multihitting zoning tools though...it'd likely fall apart as an idea on such moves like Zod's pistol, Deathstroke's anything, Green Lantern's chain gun, and Sinestro's shots.

Maybe if you could jump cancel a successful parry as a way in? But then it'd get a little crazy on Jump in strength which is already scary.

 

[cyke_out]

What if MB B3 / F3 absorbed 1 hit completely (no hit, no damage) like a parry?

That would alliviate the recurring problem of dealing with zoning and interactables.

Or least introduce grey health than can be recovered slowly and stops recovery the second you are hit.

 

[Bildslash]

That wouldn't be bad...it'd depend on how you balanced the recovery and startup of MB versions though. If MB B3/F3 costs you meter its still rewarding the opponent as they are depleting your resources, but if the parry cancelled into stuff on success it might open it up as a useful tool. If you simply lost a bar and were at negative frames though it wouldn't truly work as a parry though. If they could do it, I'd be down for this. Not certain how it'd work on multihitting zoning tools though...it'd likely fall apart as an idea on such moves like Zod's pistol, Deathstroke's anything, Green Lantern's chain gun, and Sinestro's shots.

That's the point, to make it absorb only 1 hit to avoid making it too powerful. Basically like it is currently but without the damage penalty.

 

[mercureXI]

1) walking speed changed for footsies' sake
2) no D2 buff. Just buff the AA specials so that not every fucking character can AA for free using an "easy D2". D2 is the easy option, it requires spacing and timing, and it's fine as it is.I'd even consider a D2 nerf for Aquaman for example !
3) smaller hitbox on interactibles, possibility to crouch the pig (!).
4) less meter gained on projectiles, except for some specific characters (Sinestro comes to mind)
5) normalize combo damage so that hitting 50% is max damage.
6) overall trait changes : Grundy's power/def up lasting 15sec instead of a whole match, Aquaman's trait with a much longer cooldown, Sups only damage buff and no armor breaking property (it destroys some matchups like Bane/Grundy/etc), etc

Hard to balance a game that is "brand new" over the first year, let's hope NRS doesn't drop the ball and keep up the good work.

 

[shaowebb]

That's the point, to make it absorb only 1 hit to avoid making it too powerful. Basically like it is currently but without the damage penalty.

Meter is so important though that it wouldn't really be appealing to use. It'd be pretty rarely used in my eyes if it cost a full bar as clashes are important and MB-ing tools in this game is extremely needed for both damage, punishes, and for starting offense. Half a bar maybe if it parries, but still a full bar to use on hit as an attack? It'd also need to be projectile only otherwise wakeups might go straight to hell.

 

[MetalPete]

I can think of changes that will make Injustice more complex but they'll also make it more similar to other fighting games and probably move away from the developer's unique vision for the game. How to improve Injustice while keeping the same level of "Injustice-esque" is beyond me at the moment, so be warned when you read the list:

1. Replace the forward DASH with a forward RUN. (This may sound a bit crazy but I'd like to see this type of change playing out before resorting to the safer "increase walk speed". What I have in mind is similar to K-Groove CVS2.) Better movement also allows you to design characters to not have good anti-airs without screwing them over. In general it allows for more variety in design and for more character arch-types to exist. - I would love to see the option to run in this game. Keep the dash, but double-tap and hold to run. As big as the screen zooms out this would be a nice strategy...Maybe add a bit of armor during the run.

2. Balance the risk-reward between each characters' strings correctly. The hits that lead to the biggest reward on hit (launchers) and block (frame advantage) should be the ones that are hardest to hit with i.e. have worse range (think borderline point blank range) and/or the slowest startup speed. Also make normals advance less if at all. In the case of specials/ex moves that start full combos, make it so that only the heavier normals can combo to it. - I like this idea and couldn't add more to it. Well said.

Moreover, what we could do with the push-block is have it turned into a combo breaker. That way you choose to break the combo if you had enough meter, but also decide to initiate a clash if you needed a comeback.

Since this would take a lot of over-haul; in the next game I would love to see a super system like that of SSF or KoF. I feel that Injustice would benefit greatly from more of that fighting style versus MK.

Maybe instead of having a single button and a 13 combination to initiate throws why not make one of them an evade like in KoF?

 

[Bildslash]

Meter is so important though that it wouldn't really be appealing to use. It'd be pretty rarely used in my eyes if it cost a full bar as clashes are important and MB-ing tools in this game is extremely needed for both damage, punishes, and for starting offense. Half a bar maybe if it parries, but still a full bar to use on hit as an attack? It'd also need to be projectile only otherwise wakeups might go straight to hell.

When I say MB B3 / F3 I'm including the dash cancel. By making it impervious to damage it can be used as a punishment and offense tool.

It is currently used despite taking full damage for attempting so. By removing the damage penalty you can rest assured its use will skyrocket.

 

[shaowebb]

Moreover, what we could do with the push-block is have it turned into a combo breaker. That way you choose to break the combo if you had enough meter, but also decide to initiate a clash if you needed a comeback.

Since this would take a lot of over-haul; in the next game I would love to see a super system like that of SSF or KoF. I feel that Injustice would benefit greatly from more of that fighting style versus MK.

Maybe instead of having a single button and a 13 combination to initiate throws why not make one of them an evade like in KoF?

If IGAU 2 was more like KoF XIII I'd jerk it till I died.

Roll Evasion, HD gauge super canceling, HD mode combos, normal cancels, projectile nullification, guard breaks, hops, good walk speed, a run...Jesus Christ it is so amazing for footsies and its meter game while staying so balanced. Its my standard that I hold non aerial combo based fighters to now. NRS could learn a LOT by studying it, because with simple inputs, strong single player and footsie/meter game as good as that you'd have the perfect fighting game. By comparison to it the footsies in this game are really dull for me along with how repetitive the combo system is.

Injustice is its own thing, but it could really learn a lot from KoF XIII.

When I say MB B3 / F3 I'm including the dash cancel. By making it impervious to damage it can be used as a punishment and offense tool.

It is currently used despite taking full damage for attempting so. By removing the damage penalty you can rest assured its use will skyrocket.

I get what your going for and it sounds good, but just remember you cant dash cancel very well if you only absorb one hit and then dash into the rest of the projectile from multishot tools. Those character could essentially use those tools to make this unappealing in their matchups in favor of just normal meter hoarding. Against things like arrows, zod balls, BA lightning it'd be amazing, but multishot tools are fairly common.Black Adam would drop in tiers, Green Lantern and Deathstroke would rise, and it'd create a large shuffle. If multihit projectiles weren't common across so many cast it'd be pretty damned perfect in my eyes.

 

[MetalPete]

1) walking speed changed for footsies' sake
2) no D2 buff. Just buff the AA specials so that not every fucking character can AA for free using an "easy D2". D2 is the easy option, it requires spacing and timing, and it's fine as it is. I'd even consider a D2 nerf for Aquaman for example !
3) smaller hitbox on interactibles, possibility to crouch the pig (!).
5) normalize combo damage so that hitting 50% is max damage.

Yes sir! I'm sure a lot of people will frown on the 50% max damage idea, but I love it. Having a maximum damage dealt threshold would open the door for more unique combos and juggles. I would much rather deal 50% damage 20 different ways than 1 way to deal 75-100%.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

But then that would be unfair to people who like them.

Since the game defaults to them on, and the game is designed around them being in the meta, it should have to be a conscious choice from both players to turn it off.

Having a stage with out interactables would as least make it a 50/50, instead of one player always winning.

No I mean like 1 person turning them off so that the interactables will be off if that person wins the 50/50. It's basically the same as having a stage with no interactables.

 

[snort]

How about adding a clash for the first life bar as well? 1 clash is stupid IMO. I think this should be seriouly considered because 2 false moves and you could be eating 2 40% combos with certain characters.

 

[Bildslash]

I get what your going for and it sounds good, but just remember you cant dash cancel very well if you only absorb one hit and then dash into the rest of the projectile from multishot tools. Those character could essentially use those tools to make this unappealing in their matchups in favor of just normal meter hoarding. Against things like arrows, zod balls, BA lightning it'd be amazing, but multishot tools are fairly common.Black Adam would drop in tiers, Green Lantern and Deathstroke would rise, and it'd create a large shuffle. If multihit projectiles weren't common across so many cast it'd be pretty damned perfect in my eyes.

Characters like GL and DS wouldn't boost their rank in the tiers. People already deal with their multihitting stuff manually because they know using armor is pointless. In fact it could hurt them more; take for instance DS in Ferris Aircraft, the reason he's so strong there is because you have to dodge the interactables, with a parry you can punish on reaction instead.