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Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Sorry to keep posting my problems, but I cannot beat my friend's Harley Quinn to save my life. I am constantly ranged out by her gun shots and I can't get in. I try to use my trait but the gunshots hit me out of it -_-. Should I just take the chip damage and dash in then punish with soul crush? Or is there something else I could do?
Duck gun shots. Take a hit if you need to in order to get into trait. Try to stay in soul crush range. Make her come to you. You can reflect fun shots too, just not on reaction. You can punish tantrum stance cartwheel with d1 lift.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Sorry to keep posting my problems, but I cannot beat my friend's Harley Quinn to save my life. I am constantly ranged out by her gun shots and I can't get in. I try to use my trait but the gunshots hit me out of it -_-. Should I just take the chip damage and dash in then punish with soul crush? Or is there something else I could do?
She is plus when guns are blocked, just jump over them. When on range you can souls crush and trait up. Pillars can deal with air guns and singularity deals with her mobility. She has a sick mixup game so don't be afraid to b23 in case you need space.
 

s m

Noob
This whole scorpion thing is getting ridiculous... Bad scorpions are cake because of how predictable their patterns and teleports become and as we all know punishing that shit is mad easy, scorps were free. Now they're starting to realize that they have a pretty much instant cast (well, beats anything we have anyways) tracking unblockable.. wait what? So I sit full screen and eat that, and if I decide I want to dash or jump in they can tp at any point, and I'm not blocking (to avoid the fullscreen unblockable spam...) so I eat it into some stupid ass 3 teleport combo. Trait? Second they realize I'm going for a tp or db2 easy teleport confirm. That character is so ridiculous and forgiving to shitty players.

EDIT - Also, anyone else feeling like Raven is low tier if for no other reason than her inexistent wake-up game? Basically every time you wake up you have a 50/50 ... that doesn't even include their grab and grab special options. There's literally nothing we can do against top tier characters that have strings with constant low/high starts (most other characters) I've gotten blown up by wakeup invincibility more than once but pretty sure it isn't possible to do as raven..

A bunch of bitching and moaning but I think there's some legitimate concerns... any input?
 

VGMtheVagabond

Salt Mine CEO
I don't know if it's somewhere in this thread, but can I get an in-depth way to deal with Sinestro? He's my worst matchup thus far.
 

Sami

Noob
This whole scorpion thing is getting ridiculous... Bad scorpions are cake because of how predictable their patterns and teleports become and as we all know punishing that shit is mad easy, scorps were free. Now they're starting to realize that they have a pretty much instant cast (well, beats anything we have anyways) tracking unblockable.. wait what? So I sit full screen and eat that, and if I decide I want to dash or jump in they can tp at any point, and I'm not blocking (to avoid the fullscreen unblockable spam...) so I eat it into some stupid ass 3 teleport combo. Trait? Second they realize I'm going for a tp or db2 easy teleport confirm. That character is so ridiculous and forgiving to shitty players.

EDIT - Also, anyone else feeling like Raven is low tier if for no other reason than her inexistent wake-up game? Basically every time you wake up you have a 50/50 ... that doesn't even include their grab and grab special options. There's literally nothing we can do against top tier characters that have strings with constant low/high starts (most other characters) I've gotten blown up by wakeup invincibility more than once but pretty sure it isn't possible to do as raven..

A bunch of bitching and moaning but I think there's some legitimate concerns... any input?
Lift has some invincibility on start-up, so if you think you're opponent is going to try and immediately hit you as you get up then left will catch them. If they delay their move slightly then chances are it'll hit while lift is still in start-up but the invincibility has worn off. You now have a guessing game where Raven can wake-up using f3/b3 MB which while not invincible do gain armour after 8 frames, meaning their delayed attack will get countered by the armour, or they can try and hit you immediate in which case they'll be blown up by lift. And if they don't want to risk being blown up then you get to wake-up for free, or they can do their own MB b3/f3, etc, etc.

Her wake-up game is probably one of the worst in the game, but there are options.

Teleport is fully invincible on wake-up until you reappear, but obviously requires you to be in demon stance at the point where you wake up. It can also be baited out.


Also, I have no idea whether SC has any invincibility frames on wake up, but considering how unsafe it is I wouldn't risk it.
 

TrulyAmiracle

Loud and Klear~
You forgot to mention that multi-hit moves like DS swordflip or NW staff spin will totally shit on both wake up lift and armored b3/f3. Yeah Raven sucks on wake up lol. Depending on the character lift is "ok", other than that you either block or try to backdash from whatever theyre doing.

Also i dont think SC has invincibility as it seems like it counts as a projectile so it doesnt get any. I'm not 100% sure but its never worked for me as it gets stuffed by simple d1's.


I don't know if it's somewhere in this thread, but can I get an in-depth way to deal with Sinestro? He's my worst matchup thus far.
Your gameplan is basically stay around midrange or closer, fullscreen he wins this MU.
All his specials are very - on block, if you're in range you can SC punish any of them, only one I'm not sure of is ex fireball.
You can forward dash boulders on reaction, keep in mind that if his trait is up he'll probably use it to hit you out of the dash so yeah its a nasty setup lol.
if you're close enough his fireball whiffs and you can get a punish, it gets bigger the more distance it travels so at close/mid range it wont hit you if you're crouching, and even then its - a million on block.
He has like no range upclose aside from b13 (kinda looks like supes' f23 but with an axe-looking thing in his hand) which i think is unsafe, if he cancels it into any special then he's def unsafe, again watch out for the trait if he has it up. f222 is good here, so is 223 and f13
Pillars are amazing in this MU from my experience, mix it up with some EH and he'll be too scared to do anything and take the chip while you build hella meter.

I know its not exactly in depth but hope that helps >.>
 

Espio

Kokomo
Black Adam I seem to be having trouble with as of now, what's everyone's thoughts on this match up?
 

AugustAPC

Not For Sale
Just been skimming posts in this thread, but just wanna chime in that I think Raven is slightly lower than mid tier. I think she's got some harsh match-ups, but can win with hard work. Don't get me wrong, she's got good ones too. She's just one of those characters that is really strong at one end of the spectrum and really weak at the other.

I think people are scared of her because they haven't got used to her tricks. She's not played that much, so people just haven't acclimated to her. I feel like she's given a bit too much respect by players that don't play her. They just need to learn how to play against her.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Raven can punish the little cloud thing with soul crush and if she's in demon stance she can get a full combo using db2 from anywhere. After a blocked dive kick you can at least check them with f2. When Raven is in demon stance dive kicking is usually not a good idea for Black Adam because his hurt box is retardly huge so he will get hit by mid & far pillars even though his body is know where near them. Black Adam doesn't really have to respect soul crush after a blocked pillar because his dash recovers fast enough to avoid it. Punishing forward dashes with f222 is awesome if you can read it. Best time to do that in my opinion is after a blocked mid pillar. Black Adams cloud thing is fast enough to beat out a pillar if you decide to do multiple in a row so that can be used to bait out clouds and punish them. Raven's j2 beats Adam's dive kick. Ending combos in f2 lift is awesome because you can walk up slightly then immediately back to bait out a hand slap wake up and then just lift him to punish. This works on supermans up grab thingy. If you think he'll wake up with his little lightning hands thingy I think you can just cross him up and you'll be fine but then it's possible to eat a hand slap. There's probably other crap I'm forgetting. Doomsday is Raven's worst match up.


Espio
 

MrSoloLobo

I have a keen eye for all things broken.
Doomsday is Raven's worst match up.
Thank goodness I am not the only one that has trouble against Doomsday. I usually counterpick him but I really want to learn how to shut doomsday down with Raven. And also I don't think the BA MU is anywhere near her worst...
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Thank goodness I am not the only one that has trouble against Doomsday. I usually counterpick him but I really want to learn how to shut doomsday down with Raven. And also I don't think the BA MU is anywhere near her worst...
Yeah she can't do much about doomsday. I plan on grinding this mu out but honestly It could be 3-7 at worst 4-6 at best.
 
Raven can punish the little cloud thing with soul crush and if she's in demon stance she can get a full combo using db2 from anywhere. After a blocked dive kick you can at least check them with f2. When Raven is in demon stance dive kicking is usually not a good idea for Black Adam because his hurt box is retardly huge so he will get hit by mid & far pillars even though his body is know where near them. Black Adam doesn't really have to respect soul crush after a blocked pillar because his dash recovers fast enough to avoid it. Punishing forward dashes with f222 is awesome if you can read it. Best time to do that in my opinion is after a blocked mid pillar. Black Adams cloud thing is fast enough to beat out a pillar if you decide to do multiple in a row so that can be used to bait out clouds and punish them. Raven's j2 beats Adam's dive kick. Ending combos in f2 lift is awesome because you can walk up slightly then immediately back to bait out a hand slap wake up and then just lift him to punish. This works on supermans up grab thingy. If you think he'll wake up with his little lightning hands thingy I think you can just cross him up and you'll be fine but then it's possible to eat a hand slap. There's probably other crap I'm forgetting. Doomsday is Raven's worst match up.


Espio
not sure. everything helps a bit but my buddy is playing a turtle adam and its near impossible to crack him open. if adam takes any risks, ill do it, but that one... im down 10-100 or sth right now. about divekicks, i like to d2 as soon as i see him jump far away, that will anti air the divekick.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
not sure. everything helps a bit but my buddy is playing a turtle adam and its near impossible to crack him open. if adam takes any risks, ill do it, but that one... im down 10-100 or sth right now. about divekicks, i like to d2 as soon as i see him jump far away, that will anti air the divekick.
If he gets the life lead he can turtle but as long as you can keep him from getting it you'll be fine. If he turtles off the bat then get into demon stance. Activating it in the air and teleporting can be good especially if you read an ex lighting projectile thing because then you get a full combo. PR Balrog mb b3 to AA godspeeds dive kick.
 
If he gets the life lead he can turtle but as long as you can keep him from getting it you'll be fine. If he turtles off the bat then get into demon stance. Activating it in the air and teleporting can be good especially if you read an ex lighting projectile thing because then you get a full combo. PR Balrog mb b3 to AA godspeeds dive kick.
yeah, getting the lifelead... gotta find some way to do that if all he does is walk backwards. sadly the guy doesnt really play the game anymore. and the teleport will only work so many times, its a gimmick. i think jf and df2 is a more reliable punish for reads on lightning/black magic. but as said, that guy did not take any risks. i think he played that matchup in the smartest possible way (plus he is better than me anyway).

btw Blind_Man, regarding your evo performance, no matter how good it was, i was wondering why you (and also no one else) is using ravens best damaging tool? its a variation of mr mileenas mini vortex which is also posted in that thread and a true vortex. after the mb pull, wait til ravens animation stopped, then immediately jf 2 and you will catch em on the first frame of their reset. depending on when in the jump you press 2 it hits frontal or crossup, its impossible for them to see. and if they guess right you still get 223 pressure. if you guess right 2 times you get around 70% damage.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
yeah, getting the lifelead... gotta find some way to do that if all he does is walk backwards. sadly the guy doesnt really play the game anymore. and the teleport will only work so many times, its a gimmick. i think jf and df2 is a more reliable punish for reads on lightning/black magic. but as said, that guy did not take any risks. i think he played that matchup in the smartest possible way (plus he is better than me anyway).

btw Blind_Man, regarding your evo performance, no matter how good it was, i was wondering why you (and also no one else) is using ravens best damaging tool? its a variation of mr mileenas mini vortex which is also posted in that thread and a true vortex. after the mb pull, wait til ravens animation stopped, then immediately jf 2 and you will catch em on the first frame of their reset. depending on when in the jump you press 2 it hits frontal or crossup, its impossible for them to see. and if they guess right you still get 223 pressure. if you guess right 2 times you get around 70% damage.
I don't feel like teleporting is a gimmick. You just have to be careful about it. If you get to teleport happy you're screwed but if you use it sparingly they won't expect it. Demon stance is awesome against black Adam.

I prefer getting guaranteed damage.
 
I don't feel like teleporting is a gimmick. You just have to be careful about it. If you get to teleport happy you're screwed but if you use it sparingly they won't expect it. Demon stance is awesome against black Adam.
well i guess i gotta mess around with it some more

I prefer getting guaranteed damage.
well everyone has his own preferences i guess. but if you DS j2, 223, f222->db2mb, thats already 26 % and the guaranteed damage will be additional 9% from a f222->df2. on the other hand you have a 50% chance for an additional 35% or another reset for 26% or with a susccessful guess 64% (the last j2,233,f22->db2 MB, b3, jf2, f222->DF2 is 38% cause its back to normal stance).

so if you do the math:

normal guaranteed damage = 35%

average damage from single vortex attempt (guessing right 5o% of the time = average 50% damage of 2nd combo): 26% + 18% (35%:2 plus 0.5% chip of failed attempt) = 44%

average damage of double vortex attempt (guessing right 50% of the time on the first attempt, getting 50% chance for another 50/50 = successful 1/4 times) = 26%+ 13.5% (26% :2 + 0.5 chip)+ 10% (38% :4 + 0.5% chip of failed attempt) = 49.5%

so in pure theory, the more risk you take the more reward you get looking at the average damage. of course in real matches you gotta decide situational, but in a neutral life and meter situation id always go for the risk.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I don't feel like teleporting is a gimmick. You just have to be careful about it. If you get to teleport happy you're screwed but if you use it sparingly they won't expect it. Demon stance is awesome against black Adam.

I prefer getting guaranteed damage.
Teleporting only works if your opponent is at a huge disadvantage off of whiff or on block. Air teleport has such a bad recovery that I am shocked that no one ever punishes me for it.

People will teleport less as the game evolves, or at least not use the air teleport as much.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Teleporting only works if your opponent is at a huge disadvantage off of whiff or on block. Air teleport has such a bad recovery that I am shocked that no one ever punishes me for it.

People will teleport less as the game evolves, or at least not use the air teleport as much.
I use the teleport for exactly that. If I read they're going to do something like throw a projectile or whatever teleport is great. I punish Black Adam a lot with air teleports because I read ex lightning. Teleport is only good when used sparingly. Also in the sinestro match up air teleport gives you a 50/50 into possibly another 50/50 so it's amazing there. Her teleport is awesome if used properly.
 
looks to me like supermans f23 breath loop can be punished with double dashback and db 3. dashback after the first breath, so his next f2 will whiff, then right again to go through the 3 and you get a free db2.

also, in the corner d3 lets you go under the second f2 and knock SM down. but its gotta be really well timed or you eat the damage.
 
vs catwoman: punish cat dash MB with d1~db2 MB. if she jumps from midscreen, move towards and whip will go over you, so you can anti-air-punish

vs scorpion: punish teleport Mk style, let him land then f22u1, f222~db2 MB, b3, jf2, f22u1

vs lex: f2 will beat a dash with trait up. punish corp charge with f22u1. if he goes for laser beam/ homing missiles, just trade with shadow raven to break pressure. orb shot can be absorbed. do not wake up, his overhead beats db2 all the time.

general: against quick high projectiles like jokers gunshot or supermans eyelaser, you can 2-in-1 duck it then f2 to punish the whiff with soul crush.