Guide MK9 Top 10 of all time

[Big Pampering]

I'd rather win back to back EVOs than 5 majors in a row in the span of 6 months. Winning the biggest annual tournament twice shows you were the best at two different eras of play.

this, even though I think reo is nr1 right now(this years evo made the difference, placed above carl and beat carl) I would still rather be the guy that won back to back evo. Not to compare him to justin wong and daigo, but they are the only people in fg history to do so.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

ssible to compare evo's to mlg's, especially evo 2012 which was imo the highest level of competition in mk history.

I mean, it's an interesting discussion because there's a lot to talk about here. Imo a lot of people didn't hit their full potential as players until after EVO 2012. People definitely weren't playing the Kabal matchup, the Cage matchup or the Lao matchup as well as everyone later learned to.

Around the time somewhere between Dallas and when Dizzy won SB:A, people really started to make progress in footsies and punishes. Life got harder for players of a lot of characters, and many people who were able to win with Lao or Kabal in the past ended up being shut down in tourneys. By the time we hit SCR, the level was even higher. By FR a Skarlet player knocking off a top-level Lao was indicative of how much the overall level of players of all characters had been raised.

This isn't to say that EVO 2012 wasn't stacked -- but was it the highest level of competition MK has ever seen? Having to beat WoundCowboy and Denzell, or even say, rev0lver or khaotik in 2013 is a totally different matter than beating them in 2012 and it showed.

 

[16 Bit]

the problem with the bracket argument is, if you look at it like that the whole list would change.

PL not meeting any cage at evo or other tournaments where he did well might be one of the reasons he won, but same could be said for tom brady, why did he have to meet all these kabals/kitanas and not all these cage players?

same thing for matxer, there were a few tournaments where maxter only lost to reo, had reo been eliminated by PL, cd jr, 16 bit, detroit or whatever player would maxter have been the nec and mlg champ?

Imo it is not possible to compare evo's to mlg's, especially evo 2012 which was imo the highest level of competition in mk history. what puts reo above PL is his grassroots wins and consistency. Had PL traveled more after evo2011 he might have been nr1, but that is not the case. so reo nr 1 basically imo.

I agree. You could do that all day. Carl beat REO, Tyrant, Forever King, Pig and CD Jr and more to win EVO 2012. That is impressive. You could say, and I have pointed it out myself in the past, that he got a "lucky bracket" in that he avoided his most hated MU, but that is not his problem. I mean, are we now going to scrutinize everyone's path? REO used KABAL. What are the bad MU he was lucky to avoid? He made top 8 winners at MLG Raleigh by playing Kabal vs. like Sub-Zero, Sonya and fucking Sheeva.

 

[Big Pampering]

I mean, it's an interesting discussion because there's a lot to talk about here. Imo a lot of people didn't hit their full potential as players until after EVO 2012. People definitely weren't playing the Kabal matchup, the Cage matchup or the Lao matchup as well as everyone later learned to.

Around the time somewhere between Dallas and when Dizzy won SB:A, people really started to make progress in footsies and punishes. Life got harder for players of a lot of characters, and many people who were able to win with Lao or Kabal in the past ended up being shut down in tourneys. By the time we hit SCR, the level was even higher.

This isn't to say that EVO 2012 wasn't stacked -- but was it the highest level of competition MK has ever seen? Having to beat WoundCowboy and Denzell, or even say, rev0lver in 2013 is a totally different matter than beating them in 2012 and it showed.

a big argument you could make is that not all the top kabals were there and we have seen woundcowboy and dizzy do well versus kabal but the chances of them winning a tournament stacked with multiple kabals would be different.

 

[Big Pampering]

I agree. You could do that all day. Carl beat REO, Tyrant, Forever King, Pig and CD Jr and more to win EVO 2012. That is impressive. You could say, and I have pointed it out myself in the past, that he got a "lucky bracket" in that he avoided his most hated MU, but that is not his problem. I mean, are we now going to scrutinize everyone's path? REO used KABAL. What are the bad MU he was lucky to avoid? He made top 8 winners at MLG Raleigh by playing Kabal vs. like Sub-Zero, Sonya and fucking Sheeva.

Yeah, PL did NOT have an easy route at evo, I don't see how people can argue this, he beat cdjr and reo who people have said for 1,5 years would body Pl easily. He did what people asked him to do and somehow people still seem to be unsatisfied with his performances.

Also looking at reo's path at mlg raleigh, if tom had to walk the same path he would very likely to be top 8 in winners as well.

 

[AntMan]

It's generally silly to argue over the top 10 best players. Should reword it to Top 10 most accomplished.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

This will be a forever going debate, no one can say who is the complete best because brackets and how many times someone can travel comes into play. Who knows how different things would've been if some ppl could've traveled more. But i'll say this, when it comes down to PL vs REO, evo definitely means a whole lot, the other tournaments are great, but EVO is the finale. For example, the Miami heat could've had the 2nd best record in the nba while the spurs had the best, but if at the end the heat win the title, then they are crowned the champs and everyone has to acknowledge that no matter who they had to play to get their. So in conclusion, EVO > all other tournaments for that simple reason. There is a reason winning evo means so much to players, ppl will always be able to go back and look at that.
GGA 16 Bit, CrimsonShadow

 

[STRYKIE]

A little convenient that Curbo of all people brings up the EVO 2012 bracketology considering he had a Sub-Zero player in his pool and then a Kenshi and Freddy in top 16 lol. Mustard, Ketchup and F0xy all lost at least one matchup they arguably couldn't be more familiar with.

To me this doesn't really matter anyway, though. Someone can have your number or your character's number, but it's not your 1v1 record that determines who's the better player overall in the context of history. It's how you've done vs. everyone else.

If HollyWoundCowboy was the greatest player on earth and had beaten everyone else, but say Scar had his number and had defeated him a couple times, that wouldn't automatically make Scar the better player overall. Complete record vs. all the top players is > one person-to-person MU.

I never said this was relevant to the tale of the tape though, that's an entirely different top 10 lol.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This will be a forever going debate, no one can say who is the complete best because brackets and how many times someone can travel comes into play. Who knows how different things would've been if some ppl could've traveled more. But i'll say this, when it comes down to PL vs REO, evo definitely means a whole lot, the other tournaments are great, but EVO is the finale. For example, the Miami heat could've had the 2nd best record in the nba while the spurs had the best, but if at the end the heat win the title, then they are crowned the champs and everyone has to acknowledge that no matter who they had to play to get their. So in conclusion, EVO > all other tournaments for that simple reason. There is a reason winning evo means so much to players, ppl will always be able to go back and look at that.
GGA 16 Bit, CrimsonShadow

Haha yeah. I think we went over this before though -- the reason tournaments aren't like the playoffs is that the Heat had to win a best of 7 to be crowned champs. So it didn't come down to who was best on one particular day, otherwise whoever won the first game after 4 quarters of play would be considered the best team.

So if the Heat lose Game 1 (Which they did) that'd be a wrap and the Spurs are considered the better team. They played better on that night, so they're the best in the NBA, it's settled.

You can see how that logic fails and why it's different to have to be the best on 4-7 different nights to be considered the best in the league.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Haha yeah. I think we went over this before though -- the reason tournaments aren't like the playoffs is that the Heat had to win a best of 7 to be crowned champs. So it didn't come down to who was best on one particular day, otherwise whoever won the first game after 4 quarters of play would be considered the best team.

So if the Heat lose Game 1 (Which they did) that'd be a wrap and the Spurs are considered the better team. They played better on that night, so they're the best in the NBA, it's a wrap.

You can see how that logic fails and why it's different to have to be the best on 4-7 different nights to be considered the best in the league.

true, but I was just talking about EVO being considered the "championship of fighting games". But to be real, REO and PL are both tight at MK and it don't even matter about who has been the "best" mk9 player, because we find out that at every tournament, we see new and crazier things than we expected everytime MK4LIFE!!!!

 

[CrimsonShadow]

true, but I was just talking about EVO being considered the "championship of fighting games". But to be real, REO and PL are both tight at MK and it don't even matter about who has been the "best" mk9 player, because we find out that at every tournament, we see new and crazier things than we expected everytime MK4LIFE!!!!

Yeah. If there's a season and a real playoffs and a championship that's one thing.. As it requires coming out on top on a number of different nights. It helps even out the randomness factor.

But a tournament is a tournament, so regardless of whether it says 'championship', and regardless of the size, it comes down to who was able to pull it off on 1 given day in Top 8.

Apples and oranges. EVO is still amazingly hype though -- it's huge and once a year.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Yeah. If there's a season and a real playoffs and a championship that's one thing.. As it requires coming out on top on a number of different nights. It helps even out the randomness factor.

But a tournament is a tournament, so regardless of whether it says 'championship', and regardless of the size, it comes down to who was able to pull it out on 1 given day in Top 8.

Apples and oranges. EVO is still amazingly hype though -- it's huge and once a year.

without a doubt man. Anyone can win on any given day.

 

[Jimmypotato]

I don't know, maybe he will post his own.


Dizzy right now is better than me and with a few exceptions like EVO and Raleigh generally out places me, which he should. However I put myself over him in an all time list since he didn't reach this level until Summer of 2012.

I respect Forever King a lot. It was great that in summer of 2012 he finally got over his nerves and started doing well. Top 10 now for SURE. Arguably top 10 in this list. Two Evo medals is a big deal. For me the final 2 spots were the hardest part. Tyrant, Dizzy and King were the 3. MIT is up there too. In the end I went with Dizzy and Tyrant. King has never won a major and has too many outside the top 8 finishes. He has no MLG placings.

I think King deserves to be on the top 10, 2 EVO Medals are better then what most will ever get in this game.

But who gives a fuck about some top 10 list of the past, lets see the STOCK MARKET for EVO MK9 and INJUSTICE.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

I think King deserves to be on the top 10, 2 EVO Medals are better then what most will ever get in this game.

But who gives a fuck about some top 10 list of the past, lets see the STOCK MARKET for EVO MK9 and INJUSTICE.

WE NEED A STOCK MARKET GGA 16 Bit, let's go!!!

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I just bought 100 shares in the Terry Bros. Seems like a solid investment to me.

 

[coolwhip]

Ok I don't mean to take anything away from PL but really think about this, tournament placing is set by your brackets. IDC how ignorant you think I am when I say this but this is 100% true ESPECIALLY for the people that don't play characters like Kabal, Kenshi or freddy. LBSH if PL got matched up vs a pool filled with cages/sonyas at EVO he wouldn't have been able to make it out of pools. Its the luck of the draw. Some people have their kryptonite characters they can't beat/players. Me for instance lets say I ran into Detroit first round at Columbus and lost then ended up meeting REO in losers bracket a match or two later. There's no way in hell I'm beating 2 of the best Kabals at the time with Johnny Cage. I would have not made top 8 and would have been considered a fraud shit talker that can't back himself up due to brackets not being on my side. Same goes for a lot of players out there. Not trying to take credit away but realize that some great players get eliminated early due to characters/player MUs. IMO I think PL had one of the easiest routes to top 8 at EVO in 2012. All MUs were in his favor or atleast he had lots of experience in.

So to say PL was the greatest of all time just because he won back to back EVO's I think is not right. Like someone else said he doesn't really place too well at other tournaments and consistency is the key here. Winning back to back EVO's with a character not in the top 5 involves a little bit of luck so the brackets can be on your side. REO is the most consistent player that's played MK9. Of all people he should be considered the best.

This is flawed logic. You don't judge history based on "what would have happened if player X had a pool filled with bad match-ups." You judge it based on what actually happened, not speculation.

For the record, I don't disagree with you. Brackets can greatly affect the outcome of a tournament, but this literally applies to every player who ever won anything. Also, it's not like PL loses to random Cages and Sonyas. Saying he wouldn't have made it out of pools is a stretch. You pretty much have to be a top Cage or Sonya to beat him. Hell Forever King's pocket Sonya failed to beat him at EVO last year.

 

[coolwhip]

This is 100% correct, and a lot of people are not willing to admit this. Also, anyone can have a good day or a bad day at a particular tournament.

EVO is the biggest, but at the end of the day it's still a tournament run exactly like the other big majors and should be subject to the same considerations. All the random people padding the pools don't change the nature of what it is.

And the Superbowl is a game that is run like any other.

 

[coolwhip]

This isn't to say that EVO 2012 wasn't stacked -- but was it the highest level of competition MK has ever seen? Having to beat WoundCowboy and Denzell, or even say, rev0lver or khaotik in 2013 is a totally different matter than beating them in 2012 and it showed.

Take a hint from your own ranking criteria. It's about WHO you beat right? Yeah, well, PL only happened to beat REO, Tyrant, Forever King, Pig of the Hut and CD Jr in that tournament. At the time, Jr and REO were considered far and away the best two Mortal Kombat players and won everything in sight, while PIG was a top 5 player. So yeah, about that level of competition thing, he wasn't beating Revolver or Wound or their equivalent in 2012 like you suggested (no disrespect to these two, who obviously improved tremendously later).

This is not a PL ass kissing fest. I consider REO to be the best player to play this game, but PL to be the "greatest" if that makes sense. But the silly logic and nit-picking applied in this thread just because the community doesn't really like the guy who won twice when it mattered the most is aggravating. "PL would have lost if he had a pool of Sonyas and Cages" (and the post actually gets likes!), "EVO is run like any other tournament." GTFO...

 

[Noserfatu]

GGA 16 Bit

I watched some matches of UFGT on youtube including a big win for PL and you absolutely went off about how great he is, and how the community can hold that. Are you guys great friends or something? Is it a midwest ccamaraderie? I'm honestly interested because you were speaking so proudly of him like he was your brother.

Anyway, my vote is for REO. I think its misleading to say he was a top 8 finisher in 2011 and 2013 EVO. More specifically, he placed 2nd in those tourneys. And he's won 3 MLGs. He's my pick for the GOAT.

Best player using the best character with the best, and most complete, resume.

My opinion is that too emphasis is placed on PL winning EVO twice when the rest of his resume pales in comparison to REO's resume. The emphasis we place on EVO wins is subjective and is the entire heart of the discussion.

@gishtezashqip7797

If this were sportscenter, there might be a stat out there that says REO has more 1st/2nd (or just 1st) place finishes than PL has total tournament appearances. It would be interesting to find that stat...

 

[coolwhip]

The best part about the double standards here is that the same people talking about how someone is lucky to avoid bad match-ups are the same people who talk about how "it's the player, not the character" in another thread. So yeah, now PL was lucky to avoid bad match-ups, and lucky to face scrubs like REO, Jr and Pig, instead of a random Johnny Cage in pools. Yeah, makes sense.

 

[coolwhip]

The emphasis we place on EVO wins is subjective and is the entire heart of the discussion.

Is an opinion subjective if everyone shares it? EVERYONE considers EVO to be the most important tournament. Therefore, the emphasis placed on EVO is not subjective.

 

[Noserfatu]

Is an opinion subjective if everyone shares it? EVERYONE considers EVO to be the most important tournament. Therefore, the emphasis placed on EVO is not subjective.

If that were true, then everyone would agree PL is the undisputed #1. But thats not the case. Because there is a school of thought that the entirety of REO's resume is more impressive than PL's 2 EVO wins. So it is subjective.

Edit:

Does REO have more 1st/2nd place finishes than PL has tourney appearances? I'm very curious.

Also, to be considered for the hall of fame in baseball, longevity and counting stats are a major consideration. If you put together 2 seasons with a 12 WAR each season, and don't play games for the rest of your career, you will not be in the hall of fame. If you put together 10 seasons with a 7 WAR each season, you will be elected to the hall of fame.

(I very much understand that 2 EVOs is 2/3 of the game's life, but the analogy has merit regardless)

 

[Nephrite]

Bad match-ups and characters used are totally irrelevant. No one's stopping anyone from picking any character they want, including the ones with no bad match-ups.

Generally in sports, it's all about winning the biggest events. A similar comparison can be found in women's tennis:

There was a time when players like Wozniacki, Jankovic, Safina were ranked no.1 in the world despite failing to win grand slams (biggest tournies in tennis). They were no.1 cause they played hella tournaments, won some majors and were consistent. Yet, even though they were no.1 by ranking, they were never feared or seen on the same level as Serena Williams (the multiple grand slam champion). In 10-20 years time hardly anyone is going to remember Wozniacki, Jankovic and Safina. Everyone's gonna remember Serena. It's about performing when it matters most, at the biggest occasion.

Let me guess, I bet a bunch of you never even heard of those 3 (even when they were #1), but I'm pretty sure you all know who Serena "f***ing" Williams is.

Man, Evo is the only tourney that has a Wikipedia page (if I'm not mistaken). PL won it 2/3 times and placed Top8 the one time he didn't win. He's #1.

 

[redeyes]

achoo.

 

[ragnar0kz28]

Agreed