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KDZ Claims the reason GF weren't hype was "Major skill gap"

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TJ Casters

TJ Casters

Apprentice
Bypassing the drama, good job to both of the grand finalists. I had a great time watching. The people saying Superman is "OP as hell" are only partially right. His corner game (also that of Wonder Woman, Shazam, and Batgirl [there was a perfect round using Batgirl's corner combos]) is pretty bad. I'm fine with nerfs to that. The heat vision stuff is kind of meh, but if the community really hates it, then I'm okay with nerfs. I just really don't want another one of those "damage scaling normalizations". Superman already needs trait to get some of the 40% combos. I would really hate to see my favorite (and DC's best) character hated and driven to nerfs, but if people REALLY NEED it, then fine, but stick to what's broken. The reason I say this is because people complain about heat vision but it is avoidable by jumps or ducking. F23 can be back-dashed by the whole cast. Even with all of the community hate towards heat vision, NRS nerfed other things like his damage (which is totally fine as it is right now, doesn't really need buffs or nerfs except for corner) and his super. I hope they don't mess anything up too badly trying to please the community.


I can't help but wonder if all of the demands for nerfs would be directed at another character such as Green Lantern if a Lantern won EVO. GL has a ranged low and nobody is angry about that right now. Superman has a ranged mid that isn't safe on block, and people don't even want him to have that? This community is going through some big problems right now and I don't want to be a part of it. I play games because it's fun, not to get frustrated. If the game is going to spark such hatred in people for one of the best superheroes ever, then it's not worth it. Hopefully Killer Instinct will turn out better and won't provoke the players so much.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
Illmatix said:
he zoned and f23 errday because it's free in this matchup. watch a kabal vs subby and i bet it's all iagb, why? because it's free as hell. can superman spam BA? no BA checks him with BM. Can BA spam GL? no cuz GL can avoid his zoning pressure with a air projectile. f23 is almost useless vs BA because of his mobility.

the point im making is some of supermans best stuff isn't viable in some matchups. but green lantern can't deal with it, and the fact djt held his own and in these horrendous matchups makes him an amazing player. If he had a winning matchup vs supes he would have EASILY taken it.....
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Battle circuit where CDJR takes the tourney from Rico with F23 almost exclusively. That it's difficult to zone BA yes it is, but with proper mind games it can be done as CDJR does here as well. This is pre-patch superman where f23 breath is still positive and not neutral, but it is also pre-patch super safe divekick BA.

I'm not saying this to be rude or instigate an argument but I don't see how BA can do anything other than what every character in the game is supossed to do other than whiff punish superman.
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
Foreskin Fissure said:

Battle circuit where CDJR takes the tourney from Rico with F23 almost exclusively. That it's difficult to zone BA yes it is, but with proper mind games it can be done as CDJR does here as well. This is pre-patch superman where f23 breath is still positive and not neutral, but it is also pre-patch super safe divekick BA.

I'm not saying this to be rude or instigate an argument but I don't see how BA can do anything other than what every character in the game is supossed to do other than whiff punish superman.
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pre patch means before issues were addresed. black adam has the best backdash in the game. it can be easily avoided. AND they let him get f2d1, which was nerfed to hell as well. AND the black adams didnt maximize damage. and i skimmed the video and he didnt really f23 super breath. he did j1 aa alot.
 
Uotan

Uotan

Unban Joker
KDZ said:
The most rational thing I've read in this thread.

BUFF MUSIC IN INJUSTICE. God damn it NRS PLZ.
Agree or Disagree?
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For whatever reason the music slider is set really low by default, like 30% or something. If TO's/streamers would take a couple of minutes and bump this to max in the options menu on the stream station, it'd help a lot. Same thing with unlocking the armory costumes.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
Illmatix said:
pre patch means before issues were addresed..
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The only issue that was truly fixed was BA's divekick which killed a small portion of his mobility (the capability of being able to travel across screen with no repricussion). Supermans F23 breath is still +1 on block even after the patch so what I'm basically asking is why F23 is not viable in the BA matchup because from the numbers it still looks free to me.

I went into the lab and pre-recorded superman doing F23 breath F23 and from what I was able to do i could punish it with a d1. If I did F23 breath back dash I could do absolutely nothing, it's still safe
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
Foreskin Fissure said:
The only issue that was truly fixed was BA's divekick which killed a small portion of his mobility (the capability of being able to travel across screen with no repricussion). Supermans F23 breath is still +1 on block even after the patch so what I'm basically asking is why F23 is not viable in the BA matchup because from the numbers it still looks free to me.

I went into the lab and pre-recorded superman doing F23 breath F23 and from what I was able to do i could punish it with a d1. If I did F23 breath back dash I could do absolutely nothing, it's still safe
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it's 0 now sir. which means you can dash back or f3mb the follow up. since BA dash recovers before supes he should be able to block the followup if he dashes with him and then does f2. once you got superman dashing in after superbreath nj punishing f2 becomes more viable. now he has to throw out j1. and finally it's all mind game. also f23 with superman will still be used in all matchups, because it's his best tool . but super breath mixups become about reads, not free as hell like it is to gl because his slow back dash, slow jump, and uber punishable lm.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
Illmatix said:
it's 0 now sir. which means you can dash back or f3mb the follow up. since BA dash recovers before supes he should be able to block the followup if he dashes with him and then does f2. once you got superman dashing in after superbreath nj punishing f2 becomes more viable. now he has to throw out j1. and finally it's all mind game. also f23 with superman will still be used in all matchups, because it's his best tool . but super breath mixups become about reads.
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then in game frame data is wrong cause it still reads +1 for it there. Either way it still doesn't explain how F23 is ALMOST COMPLETELY useless as you said in your original reply. Supes can still use it as a completely safe footsies tool, and can still use it for whiff punishing, the only difference here as opposed to most matchups is that it has weaker pressure against BA than it does against 90% of the cast.

To be clear my definition of safe is that he can do it without getting punished, obviously if he were to follow up with some sort of dash in or second f23 it can be punished, but the first f23 can be shot out at almost any point and be completely safe as long as it doesn't whiff (but this applies to about everyhing in the game).
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
oh and about superman backdashing after f2. isnt that where you want him to be? outside of f2 range? where he gets outzoned?
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
Illmatix said:
oh and about superman backdashing after f2. isnt that where you want him to be? outside of f2 range? where he gets outzoned?
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Are you talking about BA? Please clarify sir. Obviously you want to be able to backdash out of F23 from superman if that's what you're saying but that was never the point of the discussion.
 
Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
Illmatix said:
oh and about superman backdashing after f2. isnt that where you want him to be? outside of f2 range? where he gets outzoned?
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Aside from Raven with trait and probably Hawkgirl, who can outzone Superman?

Seriously, I don't know. I think his zoning is top notch and you don't want to be full screen vs Superman unless you play someone like Black Adam and you can just MB Dive Kick air lasers on reaction.

I disagree with KDZ when he said DJT "counter picked himself" with Doomsday. I think it's a much better matchup than Green Lantern because DD can disrespect Superman enough to give him problems + he doesn't let Supes zone and build his Super. In the last match KDZ had to spend a lot of his meter on pushblock to get out of Doomsday's pressure so he couldn't just "sit on Super next to the car" like he did vs GL.
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
Foreskin Fissure said:
then in game frame data is wrong cause it still reads +1 for it there. Either way it still doesn't explain how F23 is ALMOST COMPLETELY useless as you said in your original reply. Supes can still use it as a completely safe footsies tool, and can still use it for whiff punishing, the only difference here as opposed to most matchups is that it has weaker pressure against BA than it does against 90% of the cast.

To be clear my definition of safe is that he can do it without getting punished, obviously if he were to follow up with some sort of dash in or second f23 it can be punished, but the first f23 can be shot out at almost any point and completely safe as long as it doesn't whiff (but this applies to about everyhing in the game).
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yea if black adam has better pressure and zoning he can take this match up. also batgirl can can handle supes too. her back flip settups pwn all of supes options after breath dont they? her b2 pressure is nothing to be triffled with it that matchup, and her tele stops zoning
 
coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
OK so here is TYM hypocrisy 101 for you:

REO and Tom Brady state in an interview that "no one is on our level" (which implies a skill gap) because they reached the GF at an East Coast major a few weeks into the game. Apparently, this is acceptable.

KDZ wins fucking EVO, and we crucify him for a comment that has been greatly misinterpreted.
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
Vulcan Hades said:
Aside from Raven with trait and probably Hawkgirl, who can outzone Superman?

Seriously, I don't know. I think his zoning is top notch and you don't want to be full screen vs Superman unless you play someone like Black Adam and you can just MB Dive Kick air lasers on reaction.

I disagree with KDZ when he said DJT "counter picked himself" with Doomsday. I think it's a much better matchup than Green Lantern because DD can disrespect Superman enough to give him problems + he doesn't let Supes zone and build his Super. In the last match KDZ had to spend a lot of his meter on pushblock to get out of Doomsday's pressure so he couldn't just "sit on Super next to the car" like he did vs GL.
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a clever batman can zone for the clock win, black adam, the two you metioned. plus we should talk about characters he cant zone like bat girl. almost forgot, Zod out zones him nasty 2. his zoning really isn't that threatening if you have the life lead.
 
Vulcan Hades

Vulcan Hades

Champion
Illmatix said:
a clever batman can zone for the clock win
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Are you saying REO is not a clever Batman? lol

Because from what I saw Emperor Theo was just avoiding Batman's zoning with very little trouble. Bad example. I know Batman is a very strong zoner but just not vs Superman.

I forgot about Deathstroke though. I think he can outzone Superman pretty well. Sinestro? Probably even zoning I'm not sure..
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
Vulcan Hades said:
Are you saying REO is not a clever Batman? lol

Because from what I saw Emperor Theo was just avoiding Batman's zoning with very little trouble. Bad example. I know Batman is a very strong zoner but just not vs Superman.

I forgot about Deathstroke though. I think he can outzone Superman pretty well. Sinestro? Probably even zoning I'm not sure..
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people dont really make use of up rangs release bats, for that bait tho, plus it think it's quite easy to dodge stuff with his awesome jump.

and reo is cold as hell.
 
Foreskin Fissure

Foreskin Fissure

Noob
Illmatix said:
yea if black adam has better pressure and zoning he can take this match up. also batgirl can can handle supes too. her back flip settups pwn all of supes options after breath dont they? her b2 pressure is nothing to be triffled with it that matchup, and her tele stops zoning
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I honestly think you're missing my point. I've always thought that BA vs supes was an even MU never that he couldn't, and I also don't know why you bring up batgirl, because in this MU again F23 is his best option for footsies. My point from the beginning that still stands is that anytime you see a superman play, it will always be a f23 breath-fest because in every single match up its his best and far superior footsies tool and because of this he has no reason to use any other tool at his disposal.

I will say this, the only time F23 Breath is not as viable is against Nightwing STAFF stance, but again this is just one of those things that nullifies half of the cast but this is for a different discussion.
 
Illmatix

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
Foreskin Fissure said:
I honestly think you're missing my point. I've always thought that BA vs supes was an even MU never that he couldn't, and I also don't know why you bring up batgirl, because in this MU again F23 is his best option for footsies. My point from the beginning that still stands is that anytime you see a superman play, it will always be a f23 breath-fest because in every single match up its his best and far superior footsies tool and because of this he has no reason to use any other tool at his disposal.

I will say this, the only time F23 Breath is not as viable is against Nightwing STAFF stance, but again this is just one of those things that nullifies half of the cast but this is for a different discussion.
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of course, but i dont see it as op, it's just how he fights and if we take this tool from him he'll end up like scorp or strokes. it's good but it isnt brain dead. theres some reading involved. i brought up batgirl because it can be a hard matchup for supes, and alot of people are talking about him like he's a easier kabal. he's not he has weaknesses...
 
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