Match-up Discussion Joker Matchup Discussion

[Jack White]

What is Joker going to do with that pressure? Baffle you with his stellar, high damaging mix ups? Lol, there is no reason to be afraid because if you aren't blocking low, the worst you'll take is 11% and the same goes for an overhead.

Also, most characters can tech roll + Backdash to completely avoid all of Joker's pressure. It's completely avoidable for free outside the corner.

 

[MetaSkipper]

That's running towards the corner. Not optimal, but it still helps.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Yeah, that's my feeling as well. Need to get them to the corner to be effective, but not alot of ways to control the match and do so other than severely outplaying your opponent. Sucks that some characters have crazy safe 50/50s with each option leading to 30+%, while ours are little 2 hit combos that only really give us more footsie opportunities and possible setups IF the opponent screws up. Joker has potential, but nothing is solid yet IMO

 

[Qwark28]

What is Joker going to do with that pressure? Baffle you with his stellar, high damaging mix ups? Lol, there is no reason to be afraid because if you aren't blocking low, the worst you'll take is 11% and the same goes for an overhead.

Also, most characters can tech roll + Backdash to completely avoid all of Joker's pressure. It's completely avoidable for free outside the corner.

IDK, maybe establish his 212 pressure and mixups? Why do you even play the character if you're just gonna say "joker sucks what is he gonna do" of which the whole subforum reeks?

Like I said in 5 and now 6 posts. You're taking advantage of those tech rolls. J3 will catch anyone who backdashes into yet another knockdown if they tech roll and do it.

Honestly, have you ever played a character that fights for scraps? I'm guessing not, when I was playing subzero in MK9 I had to push my opponent to the corner while doing 5% chip damage every time I got in with basically no fast advancing normals except one sweep range low. What you're supposed to do is get your opponent in the corner and do what your character was designed for. A character with 99% of his matchups being 4-6 doesn't mean he's a bad character overall, it just means he can win almost every matchup with just alittle more difficulty than normal. That should be doable to any player who knows the matchup.

What you guys are lacking is trying to come up with a solution to this shit, the only thing I see here is combo discussions and what would happen if you managed to get your opponent in a teeth setup without analyzing how you could cause that. Basic matchup observations without actually exploring like for example Cat did with the grundy matchup. That shit has to start now. Who cares if you don't get damage straight away? Do you want them to get away with that tech roll or do you want to get the most you can out of that situation that can actually lead into many more setups on itself? Because what I'm seeing ATM is a way for free pressure from tech rolls and baiting unsafe wakeups.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

IDK, maybe establish his 212 pressure and mixups? Why do you even play the character if you're just gonna say "joker sucks what is he gonna do" of which the whole subforum reeks?

Like I said in 5 and now 6 posts. You're taking advantage of those tech rolls. J3 will catch anyone who backdashes into yet another knockdown if they tech roll and do it.

Honestly, have you ever played a character that fights for scraps? I'm guessing not, when I was playing subzero in MK9 I had to push my opponent to the corner while doing 5% chip damage every time I got in with basically no fast advancing normals except one sweep range low. What you're supposed to do is get your opponent in the corner and do what your character was designed for. A character with 99% of his matchups being 4-6 doesn't mean he's a bad character overall, it just means he can win almost every matchup with just alittle more difficulty than normal. That should be doable to any player who knows the matchup.

What you guys are lacking is trying to come up with a solution to this shit, the only thing I see here is combo discussions and what would happen if you managed to get your opponent in a teeth setup without analyzing how you could cause that. Basic matchup observations without actually exploring like for example Cat did with the grundy matchup. That shit has to start now. Who cares if you don't get damage straight away? Do you want them to get away with that tech roll or do you want to get the most you can out of that situation that can actually lead into many more setups on itself? Because what I'm seeing ATM is a way for free pressure from tech rolls and baiting unsafe wakeups.

We all love the character here. I just posted a whole god damn thread on setups and combo potential of teeth. We talk about what the character lacks relative to others in the game because he is unanimously one of the most lacking characters in the game and needs some things if you're ever gonna see him have a tourney presence, regardless of how far we push him.
That said, we do push him every day and come up with more and more useful tech. If all you're seeing is combo threads, you aren't looking. We just covered every permutation of the tech roll in the past batch of your posts. The moral of the story is, some characters you can keep the pressure on, some can escape and you have to work harder against those matchups. Instead of sitting here putting everyone on blast, start talking about those matchups like you initially said you were, because so far you just sound like another douchey TYM troll who makes it sound like he knows shit when he doesn't. Stop getting all ranty without actually saying anything new.

if you end your combo in far teeth and they tech +wakeup they dont have invincibility frames, with the same J3 timing you can beat corp charge for 21%-full teeth combo

What is the combo you are starting with to lead into teeth there; pretty sure that's where we differ.

 

[Qwark28]

We all love the character here. I just posted a whole god damn thread on setups and combo potential of teeth. We talk about what the character lacks relative to others in the game because he is unanimously one of the most lacking characters in the game and needs some things if you're ever gonna see him have a tourney presence, regardless of how far we push him.
That said, we do push him every day and come up with more and more useful tech. If all you're seeing is combo threads, you aren't looking. We just covered every permutation of the tech roll in the past batch of your posts. The moral of the story is, some characters you can keep the pressure on, some can escape and you have to work harder against those matchups. Instead of sitting here putting everyone on blast, start talking about those matchups like you initially said you were, because so far you just sound like another douchey TYM troll who makes it sound like he knows shit when he doesn't. Stop getting all ranty without actually saying anything new.


What is the combo you are starting with to lead into teeth there; pretty sure that's where we differ.

I'm not putting anyone on blast, I'm saying what we should be looking for by now just like every other character forum I've seen so far. Except I still haven't seen any matchup discussion. Finding what can happen off of teeth is just fine, I'm talking about matchups. I'm not getting ranty, I'm saying that there is no point complaining about stuff he can get for free, no matter how small. Yes, this character is extremely sub-par the way he looks now, but let's just explore his options vs every single move, wakeup, tech, backdash and not reject his potential off of those.

The setup I said about charge is when youve laid down teeth and Lex rolls and corp charges at you, even if you stand still and don't even block after it he will hit you with the charge but be launched by the teeth which you can combo with gunshot or super, irrelevant since it's a ridiculous scenario but good to know. What you will be doing is J3 when you read the obvious tech roll, there are 2 options.

1) You hit him with J3 alone. After this do the standard combo into squirt for 20%

2) You do the J3 too late and he gets hit by it, throwing him into the teeth. Any combo except a B3 will work

Corp charge will never hit you in this scenario because you're too high in the air and he has no more invincibility frames.

You can do this with most of the wakeups in this game and I'm in the lab right now finding new setups, I have a decent forced 50/50 against GL which adds up to 66% damage if you guess right and 6% if you guess wrong.

 

[Qwark28]

Is it known that after a sweep you get free close teeth that only Lex and Flash can punish?

 

[MetaSkipper]

66%? Interesting. Do tell.

So, perhaps a question for the matchup specific thread, but still. Who are Joker's best and wort matchups? Why?

 

[Qwark28]

66%? Interesting. Do tell.

It basically involves doing J2 32 MB RLG B3 and then far teeth into MB F3

the teeth will land behind GL, if he rolls then he's right above them MB F3 will hit him and so will the teeth at the same time. If he doesn't roll then the same thing happens as the MB F3 pushes him into the teeth. This setup cannot be escaped by wakeup, dash, jump or armour and can only be backdashed or beat by characters with fast advancing wakeup moves like flashes flying uppercut. GL in particular doesn't have time to do D1 lift to break the armour.

What is difficult about this setup is that MB F3 will not throw into the teeth unless you take a step forward, that can fuck up your timing and ruin the mixup which is why you need to be able to do it without fail, walking a step forward ensures that

Tech rolls are punished with F3
Standing up without tech rolling or waking gets you F3d into the teeth for the mixup

This costs 2 bars and I'm currently finding ways to do this meterless but your opponent has 3 options and that makes it difficult.

After teeth hit you can do a F2/32 combo which unfortunately means you can't loop this.

The way to escape this is with a good backdash, meaning that characters with bad backdashes will have problems with this setup and fast advancing wakeups, all of them happening to be unsafe in this game.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

It basically involves doing J2 32 MB RLG B3 and then far teeth into MB F3

the teeth will land behind GL, if he rolls then he's right above them MB F3 will hit him and so will the teeth at the same time. If he doesn't roll then the same thing happens as the MB F3 pushes him into the teeth. This setup cannot be escaped by wakeup, dash, jump or armour and can only be backdashed or beat by characters with fast advancing wakeup moves like flashes flying uppercut. GL in particular doesn't have time to do D1 lift to break the armour.

What is difficult about this setup is that MB F3 will not throw into the teeth unless you take a step forward, that can fuck up your timing and ruin the mixup which is why you need to be able to do it without fail, walking a step forward ensures that

Tech rolls are punished with F3
Standing up without tech rolling or waking gets you F3d into the teeth for the mixup

This costs 2 bars and I'm currently finding ways to do this meterless but your opponent has 3 options and that makes it difficult.

After teeth hit you can do a F2/32 combo which unfortunately means you can't loop this.

The way to escape this is with a good backdash, meaning that characters with bad backdashes will have problems with this setup and fast advancing wakeups, all of them happening to be unsafe in this game.

After the b3, before the teeth, have you tried sneaking a ji3 or ji2 in there? The timing might be a little slow, but you might be able to milk a bit more damage out of it and still progress to the same setup. Like I said, might be just a tad too slow though.

 

[Qwark28]

After the b3, before the teeth, have you tried sneaking a ji3 or ji2 in there? The timing might be a little slow, but you might be able to milk a bit more damage out of it and still progress to the same setup. Like I said, might be just a tad too slow though.

no, you absolutely need the B3s hit advantage to set this up, the whole setup takes about 4 seconds and if you make them fall prematurely then you don't have enough time. You need to start the setup the moment you hit them with B3.

One thing to know, MB F3 is only for wakeups. If they don't tech roll or wakeup then they will get hit by F3/MB F3 into the teeth. They can pushblock your F3 and have invincibility frames, meaning your teeth won't hit them out of it.

This is actually good because you don't even need to do MB F3, the only reason you'd ever MB it is to armour through wakeups, what this means is that you can do 33% into this setup and bait them into also spending a bar while you don't spend any of yours.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

no, you absolutely need the B3s hit advantage to set this up, the whole setup takes about 4 seconds and if you make them fall prematurely then you don't have enough time. You need to start the setup the moment you hit them with B3.

Alright thought that might be the case.
I think one of the hardest matchups for him right now is the parry crew. All of his pressure can be countered with that, and makes you have to read it and adjust by delaying or going for crossups, in which case a wrong guess get's you fucked up lol. The batman I play alot has the timing down to get a parry in after a ji2 before the 21 string connects, even when it combos. BULLSHIT haha.

 

[Qwark28]

Alright thought that might be the case.
I think one of the hardest matchups for him right now is the parry crew. All of his pressure can be countered with that, and makes you have to read it and adjust by delaying or going for crossups, in which case a wrong guess get's you fucked up lol. The batman I play alot has the timing down to get a parry in after a ji2 before the 21 string connects, even when it combos. BULLSHIT haha.

You can always do J3 B1 flower for 12% or 11 MB RLG which has no frame gaps and is guaranteed

 

[laudanum09]

have any of you experimented with F3 MB combo cancels and teeth? the df MB thing? it might be possible to time a meaty and cancel into df MB to option select certain wakeups.

edit: maybe after b3 and teeth, you can do a b1 or f2 nto df MB and get that space?

 

[StevoSuprem0]

have any of you experimented with F3 MB combo cancels and teeth? the df MB thing? it might be possible to time a meaty and cancel into df MB to option select certain wakeups.

edit: maybe after b3 and teeth, you can do a b1 or f2 nto df MB and get that space?

Hmm. Might work. I'd hesitate using the cancel b/f3 MB stuff with Joker though. Meter seems too crucial for normal MB b/f3 and MB RLGs, but maybe against some matchups it would be worth spending it there.

 

[Jack White]

IDK, maybe establish his 212 pressure and mixups? Why do you even play the character if you're just gonna say "joker sucks what is he gonna do" of which the whole subforum reeks?

Like I said in 5 and now 6 posts. You're taking advantage of those tech rolls. J3 will catch anyone who backdashes into yet another knockdown if they tech roll and do it.

Honestly, have you ever played a character that fights for scraps? I'm guessing not, when I was playing subzero in MK9 I had to push my opponent to the corner while doing 5% chip damage every time I got in with basically no fast advancing normals except one sweep range low. What you're supposed to do is get your opponent in the corner and do what your character was designed for. A character with 99% of his matchups being 4-6 doesn't mean he's a bad character overall, it just means he can win almost every matchup with just alittle more difficulty than normal. That should be doable to any player who knows the matchup.

What you guys are lacking is trying to come up with a solution to this shit, the only thing I see here is combo discussions and what would happen if you managed to get your opponent in a teeth setup without analyzing how you could cause that. Basic matchup observations without actually exploring like for example Cat did with the grundy matchup. That shit has to start now. Who cares if you don't get damage straight away? Do you want them to get away with that tech roll or do you want to get the most you can out of that situation that can actually lead into many more setups on itself? Because what I'm seeing ATM is a way for free pressure from tech rolls and baiting unsafe wakeups.

Nope, don't even try and give me that crap. You were the guy that almost immediately dropped Joker for freaking Black Adam. So please, spare me your MK9 anecdotes about Sub Zero and how you had to struggle to win with him. You have no right to give me a speech like that. I play The Joker because I like his character and because he's fun to play. I personally haven't been frustrated as him yet because I can go online and catch people with tricks anyone with knowledge should be able to avoid. My issue is that he basically has nothing for competitive player and we're probably never going to see a top 8 Joker. Almost every competitive player doesn't want to play as a character with 4-6 match-ups across the board as hard as that is for you to believe.

And 212 mix ups? Seriously? The combo that most characters can crouch punish because it hits high for so many? 212 mix ups are great online, but what about in a tournament setting? Where are you going to go with that if your opponent has knowledge? The best tool we have for that is 213, but 6% damage isn't exactly discouraging.

Of course you CAN win as the Joker and obviously anyone can find success, especially online where people fall for the dumbest shit, but what about in a tournament setting? Is it wrong to call you out on trying to justify a bad character with easily escapable tactics and gimmicks he may possess? In case you haven't noticed since you were away so long, people HAVE been coming up with tactics, there are set ups, and most of them are shared in secret because we don't wanna post all our technology before EVO. You sir, have lost touch with the Joker community and it's obvious from the way you post.

 

[MetaSkipper]

Keep it clean, fellas.

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Jack White, while I agree, this is a community of about 6-7 people in its current state. Yes, Qwark is being a little... confrontational... in his responses, but some of what he's said has some validity and we can use all of the information for Joker that we can get.
Currently, true to his nature, his main uses come from mind games and gimmicky crap that is unsafe and more than likely to result in you losing when the opponent is familiar with the matchup . It's rough because if any of the things he can do were more guaranteed, they would be too good (not that some of the current top character's don't have stuff that's too good... just sayin'), but as is, it's all escapeable pretty easily if one knows what they're doing. That, to me, is Joker in a nutshell. He's been pushed to his logical conclusion in most aspects until he receives some improvements, so in the mean time, all there is to do is evaluate how to best use these tools in each matchup to optimize the performance; to quazi-quote on of the great movies of our time, "[that is] what Qwark28 is trying to say, even if he is baing a twat [while he says it]". Let's keep pushing. If we ever luck out and get a bunch of random buffs *coughFLASHcough* ahem ahem, then we'll be all the more ready to tear shit up when that day comes. In the mean time, let's keep having some fun.

 

[Qwark28]

Nope, don't even try and give me that crap. You were the guy that almost immediately dropped Joker for freaking Black Adam. So please, spare me your MK9 anecdotes about Sub Zero and how you had to struggle to win with him. You have no right to give me a speech like that. I play The Joker because I like his character and because he's fun to play. I personally haven't been frustrated as him yet because I can go online and catch people with tricks anyone with knowledge should be able to avoid. My issue is that he basically has nothing for competitive player and we're probably never going to see a top 8 Joker. Almost every competitive player doesn't want to play as a character with 4-6 match-ups across the board as hard as that is for you to believe.

And 212 mix ups? Seriously? The combo that most characters can crouch punish because it hits high for so many? 212 mix ups are great online, but what about in a tournament setting? Where are you going to go with that if your opponent has knowledge? The best tool we have for that is 213, but 6% damage isn't exactly discouraging.

Of course you CAN win as the Joker and obviously anyone can find success, especially online where people fall for the dumbest shit, but what about in a tournament setting? Is it wrong to call you out on trying to justify a bad character with easily escapable tactics and gimmicks he may possess? In case you haven't noticed since you were away so long, people HAVE been coming up with tactics, there are set ups, and most of them are shared in secret because we don't wanna post all our technology before EVO. You sir, have lost touch with the Joker community and it's obvious from the way you post.

I dropped joker for a completely different reason. I dropped him because I liked BA more and still do without even knowing about tiers back then, doesn't mean I don't play joker and it certainly doesn't mean I haven't been keeping up with the forum. I didn't just pop in one day, saw the first thread titles and decided to write what I wrote. My point still stands with subzero. I found half the shit BA has and I'm planning to find even more shit with Joker.

I didn't say people should pick him up, I'm saying that this character CAN win with work and he CAN have new setups with work.

Low tier characters are simply more challenging, nothing more, nothing less, look at brady and his subzero. Subzero, unlike joker right now, had a solid gameplan with solid ways to achieve it. We have the gameplan and we need to explore and find ways to make that gameplan come true. Easily escapable tactics and gimmicks are just an excuse to find solid stuff to replace them.

 

[Qwark28]

Improved the setup I posted, gonna post details later, you can blow up tech roll and backdash after attempts for full combo. It is now a legit joker 50/50 with 30% damage if you guess right.

50/50 VS all characters who don't have fast moving wakeups, against those they have 3 ways to get out and it's bad, includes green arrow, flash and others, more info later.

 

[Dr Jackal]

have any of you experimented with F3 MB combo cancels and teeth?

laudanum09 Sure mate here the combos I love to do with F3 :
F3 (MB or not), d2 far teeth, J3, farteeth, J3, fartheeth, 3 flower, 32 flower
Sorry I am at word I don't remember exactly the %.

You can replace the J3 for an easiest combos too:
F3MB, d2 far teeth, J2, farteeth, J1 far teeth, 3flower ==> potential reset, then you know the end of the story.

Cheers

 

[laudanum09]

laudanum09 Sure mate here the combos I love to do with F3 :
F3 (MB or not), d2 far teeth, J3, farteeth, J3, fartheeth, 3 flower, 32 flower
Sorry I am at word I don't remember exactly the %.

You can replace the J3 for an easiest combos too:
F3MB, d2 far teeth, J2, farteeth, J1 far teeth, 3flower ==> potential reset, then you know the end of the story.

Cheers

I should have been more clear, I meant cancelling a combo or normal into F3 MB, i.e. 21, df MB button, not starting with a F3 and then doing a combo. You can 'option select' it against an opponents wakeup by doing a meaty normal and if it whiffs during invincible frames of a wakeup's startup, your MB F3 or B3 comes out but of course this costs 2 bars

 

[Comrade_Aleksey]

I think more useful in this case will be just dashing forward and mbF3!

 

[laudanum09]

I think more useful in this case will be just dashing forward and mbF3!

Probably, hah.

Too bad Joker can't take advantage of double b3/f3 splats and this 'option select' tech with MB launch cancels. There might be some stuff though, I just haven't put in the time. Maybe tonight.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I don't play Joker but I wanted to ask some opinions about the match up vs Green Arrow.

I'm not going to say I ran into the best jokers around, especially early in the game but I ran into some competent players that use him. They were using some teeth setups and stuff along those lines. After playing for a bit the match boiled down to me just running away with fire arrows and the joker players I've played so far couldn't do anything.

Are you guys having a hard time against run away Green Arrow players? I know he can cause some damage when he gets in but it seems extremely hard. If anything I'd like to play more Jokers to see if that's how the match is really played out or if the Joker players were just unfamiliar with Green Arrow.