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OzzFoxx

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
smokey said:
This is cool and all but not what we are going for here. Combo's, Juggle Height, Damage, Range etc are all things that are not frame data so would be better kept to a side project or discussed in your character forums. Stuff which is applicable at a glance, such as knowing you can armour through the last hit of Cassies B124 string was easy to include as it should be common knowledge when training in the match up and looking at the advantage on the strings.

Knowing how high someone gets juggled on a scale of 1 to 5 does not meet that criteria unfortunately, the training mode still exists and I want to encourage people to actually play the game and try stuff out rather than just sit and look at spreadsheets all day (not everyone finds that as exciting as us :p )
Click to expand...
You are right, what I'm creating should not replace mkxframedata. The response I got from my ambitious outing has somewhat spoiled it, but in collecting the data I have realized some things to your point. My ultimate goal was to collect all of the things that one needs to know "of" to be very effective with a character. I used what I collected to play with Cassie over the weekend, a character I have very rarely played. The problem is, there is just too much non-objective data required to meet my goal. Meta-type things like standing-resets, character and opponent match-up criteria, unique dis/advantage situations... I guess trying to objectify "ability" is a bit of a stretch. In the end, the best I can do is get a person to their personal best with a character a teeny bit faster.
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
OzzFoxx said:
You are right, what I'm creating should not replace mkxframedata. The response I got from my ambitious outing has somewhat spoiled it, but in collecting the data I have realized some things to your point. My ultimate goal was to collect all of the things that one needs to know "of" to be very effective with a character. I used what I collected to play with Cassie over the weekend, a character I have very rarely played. The problem is, there is just too much non-objective data required to meet my goal. Meta-type things like standing-resets, character and opponent match-up criteria, unique dis/advantage situations... I guess trying to objectify "ability" is a bit of a stretch. In the end, the best I can do is get a person to their personal best with a character a teeny bit faster.
Click to expand...
The main problem for me is that a lot of the stuff you found is very artificial, theres no hard data there or numbers for "juggle height" or "range". So we must create a new measurement system for this before we can start, introduce people to it and teach them how to use it. Then we can start comparing characters to see who does the highest launcher, and at the end of the day if im learning the sub zero matchup i couldnt care less how high his moves launch me or whatever, so its still going to be a lot of work for no benefit.

Frame data shows me where something can or cant be done, and gives a baseline to go into training mode and test or back up theories. This isnt supposed to be a tutorial or guide for the characters, its just a collection of frame data in an easy to use format, so theres not really any need to move away from that.
 
SUGATA

SUGATA

Noob
smokey said:
Im happy to do the work for free and get the data out there, if people want to find it after the bandwidth expires then they can use the google link as well. Its not ideal but the alternative is to ask for some cash which im not gonna do.
Click to expand...
I added into Sub-Zero tab:
1) Damage column
2) Block damage column
3) Range column
4) Fixes some mistakes in names

How can i add this to your tab on the site (to keep this in your tab for future updates)?
 
ChatterBox

ChatterBox

Searching for an alt.
smokey said:
For cancel advantage you need to look at the whole move not just the + frames. For 111 its total is 18 startup, 3 active, 26 recovery.
So in total the move takes 47 frames from startup to finish. If you cancel it, you lose 33 of those frames, so your actual cancel advantage is 47-33 = 14.
Its got +4 frames on hit so you add these here giving you 18 frames of advantage when your 1,1,1 hits and you cancel it into a special move.
Drone: Spawn is 42 frames in total, 1 startup + 41 recovery so if you use this at +18, you can see that you are actually coming out at 18-42= -24 because the drone recovery is so long.

Hopefully this helps but the formula i use here:
(startup+active+recovery) - cancel adv + block/hit adv = cancel frame
Compare cancel frames with the startup+active+recovery of your special move, and you can see where you end up.

Note that with run cancels and stuff i cant figure out what is right and wrong, and also im doubting a lot of the cancel advantage frames we took from the pause menu data, as they dont work out properly.
Click to expand...
Thank you So MUCH! This explains a lot. I am extremely happy to know the right way of doing things now so I can actually plan out setups.
 
Temjiin

Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
SUGATA said:
I added into Sub-Zero tab:
1) Damage column
2) Block damage column
3) Range column
4) Fixes some mistakes in names

How can i add this to your tab on the site (to keep this in your tab for future updates)?
Click to expand...
We did not agree to this, it's just too much work. And also irrelevant. Everyone knows their max damage bnbs and this is also covered in the combo threads.

For the record, chip damage with strings is mostly the same across the cast. 3 hits generally nets you 2.5%.

It's up to the players to learn the range of their moves, our document is simply to help them understand the numbers of the game at a glance. You can't learn a game with spreadsheets alone.
 
NRF CharlieMurphy

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Temjiin said:
We did not agree to this, it's just too much work. And also irrelevant. Everyone knows their max damage bnbs and this is also covered in the combo threads.

For the record, chip damage with strings is mostly the same across the cast. 3 hits generally nets you 2.5%.

It's up to the players to learn the range of their moves, our document is simply to help them understand the numbers of the game at a glance. You can't learn a game with spreadsheets alone.
Click to expand...
If i'm +6 on block and you decide to armor then i'm just going to do a quick cancel into my armor breaker and if you don't then i'm +6 and i get to push buttons.

the moral of the story is that my spreadsheet combat means you can't press buttons and you shouldn't press buttons cuz that is stupid (every thread)

I totally can learn from the spreadsheet.... everyone follows that!!!!

you did put in parathesis "add at least 20 frames input lag for online matches. plzkthx"
 
Temjiin

Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
NRF CharlieMurphy said:
If i'm +6 on block and you decide to armor then i'm just going to do a quick cancel into my armor breaker and if you don't then i'm +6 and i get to push buttons.

the moral of the story is that my spreadsheet combat means you can't press buttons and you shouldn't press buttons cuz that is stupid (every thread)

I totally can learn from the spreadsheet.... everyone follows that!!!!

you did put in parathesis "add at least 20 frames input lag for online matches. plzkthx"
Click to expand...
If you're +6 and EX ice clone then I character inhale reversal I can stuff ALL YOUR OPTIONS.
 
SUGATA

SUGATA

Noob
Temjiin said:
If you're +6 and EX ice clone then I character inhale reversal I can stuff ALL YOUR OPTIONS.
Click to expand...
Why you dont want to add Cancel hit adv (CHA) and Cancel block adv (CBA) columnes to the tab?
Its useful for string creating and to know gaps.
Its difficult to count because we need: Startup+Act+Recovery - Cancel + Hit/Block adv
Its easy to do in the tab by auto formula.
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
SUGATA said:
Why you dont want to add Cancel hit adv (CHA) and Cancel block adv (CBA) columnes to the tab?
Its useful for string creating and to know gaps.
Its difficult to count because we need: Startup+Act+Recovery - Cancel + Hit/Block adv
Its easy to do in the tab by auto formula.
Click to expand...
Cancel advantage in game is wrong in many cases and cant be reliably tested like hit/blockstun can
 
RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
Is the frame data for Stunt Double correct? Pretty sure most of his mimic specials are plus.
 
RM Truth

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
smokey said:
Its not correct but its spacing dependant among other random factors like breathing hitboxes and other random crap
Click to expand...
Weird. Also, I know for a fact that certain strings into mimic uppercut can be armored through. F24 I know for sure.
 
OzzFoxx

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
smokey said:
The main problem for me is that a lot of the stuff you found is very artificial, theres no hard data there or numbers for "juggle height" or "range". So we must create a new measurement system for this before we can start, introduce people to it and teach them how to use it. Then we can start comparing characters to see who does the highest launcher, and at the end of the day if im learning the sub zero matchup i couldnt care less how high his moves launch me or whatever, so its still going to be a lot of work for no benefit.

Frame data shows me where something can or cant be done, and gives a baseline to go into training mode and test or back up theories. This isnt supposed to be a tutorial or guide for the characters, its just a collection of frame data in an easy to use format, so theres not really any need to move away from that.
Click to expand...
Ok smokey, I think since my ultimate goal is considerably different from the OPs, its a discussion for a different thread. I want to say though that the data available on mkxframedata has been very helpful to me and its appreciated. Your input has been detailed and constructive. Thanks.
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Predator frames are now up, currently adding Tremor.

Have a look and if anyone knows of any bugs, gaps in strings, armoured moves or general notes that we need, post them here!
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
Everything up to date with Tremor patch now. Theres a bunch of stuff on tremor and predator that could use another pair of eyes (from someone who plays the character)

Is there really no difference to any of Tremors variation special moves except the quirky names?
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
smokey said:
Everything up to date with Tremor patch now. Theres a bunch of stuff on tremor and predator that could use another pair of eyes (from someone who plays the character)

Is there really no difference to any of Tremors variation special moves except the quirky names?
Click to expand...
I think crystalline specials have different hit and block advantages. If you're testing the moves the frame data is incorrect on the specials at least. One of the tremor players worked out crystalline's numbers.
 
smokey

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
buyacushun said:
I think crystalline specials have different hit and block advantages. If you're testing the moves the frame data is incorrect on the specials at least. One of the tremor players worked out crystalline's numbers.
Click to expand...
Do you have a link for that or can you tag them here? I would like to put all the right data into the document, pause menu is a lie.
 
infamy23

infamy23

FireBeard
My numbers should be pretty accurate. Some stuff might be off by 1 frame at the most.

I just finished doing Metallic's frame data last night as well. Unfortunately I don't have anything for Aftershock and I'm not sure if I will bother because it's a lot of work and I'm not interested in that variation.

 
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