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The Tier List According to CD Mani and Coach Steve

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Wow. All right, the initial comments were to whether or not Boneshaper was a top ten character. You're the one that brought up this trivial distinction and SPECIFICALLY brought up Necromancer as a talking point for why Shinnok wouldn't be top tier.

Slow down, "I didn't say that word for word!" I know. You didn't. You did, however, imply it.

How stupid do you really think people are? If the discussion is about Boneshaper Shinnok, do you REALLY think people who are new that are viewing the site WON'T know that we're not talking about Shinnok?

Presumably they play the game or have at least read enoug to know that variations exist. This talking point of yours makes no sense. None.

You're still arguing semantics for literally no reason.

Tempest Kung Lao IS a character. Why? Because Tempest cannot exist without Kung Lao. This separation you're making between characters and their variations is EXTREMELY arbitrary.

If we're talking about Tempest Kung Lao, we're not talking about Liu Kang. There is NO WAY you can be confused, here. There is no ambiguity.

If you have a variation that has more winning match ups than another character, you deserve a higher place on the tier list than that character.

Example: Jax is viable and very good across all variations. Tempest Lao has more winning match ups than Jax across all three of Jax's variations, so he is a higher tier character.

That Jax has more than two viable variations doesn't matter because he doesn't win more match ups than Tempest. Hat Trick never enters the discussion because It's not relevant to what Lao variation has the most winning match ups.

If Boneshaper Shinnok has more winning match ups than most of the cast except four other characters, then he deserves to be in the Top 5 because his match up chart is better than most characters. Necromancer never enters the equation.

I don't know how else to spell it out for you.
Ok let's make it simple, I'll reduce it down.

1. Tempest = 1 variation. Kung Lao = a character. A character = 3 variations. Is that wrong? Yes or no?
2. As I said, treating a variation as a character is fine and I'm not talking about that. Calling a variation as a character is incorrect because that's not how MKX works since a character has not one, not two, but three variations. It blows my mind that simple game mechanic notation isn't that understandable or if it is then it's just being ignored which is stupid because you're just cutting out parts of the game for no reason.
3. I agree with you that Bone Shaper having more winning matchups than other variations for other characters makes it a top 5 variation but that doesn't make a whole character top 5 because that ignores the other two parts of the character. Bone Shaper might have lots of winning matchups but Necromancer doesn't and it's part of the character. A character is all three variations, if you're going to ignore other variations you're then not considering the character as a whole. Does that not seem to make sense or what?
A single character by YOUR definition doesnt exist in reality. You are making stuff up just to be obnoxious

Stop being a thing
What? You're saying that a character in MKX doesn't exist? A character, which is composed of three variations, doesn't exist in MKX? Don't know what game you're playing...
Youphemism is the antichrist
Oh look, someone else that thinks having a different opinion automatically makes the other person wrong and that means you can insult them for no reason instead of making valid points :) I should really start dickriding like everyone else eh? :)
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Ok let's make it simple, I'll reduce it down.

1. Tempest = 1 variation. Kung Lao = a character. A character = 3 variations. Is that wrong? Yes or no?
2. As I said, treating a variation as a character is fine and I'm not talking about that. Calling a variation as a character is incorrect because that's not how MKX works since a character has not one, not two, but three variations. It blows my mind that simple game mechanic notation isn't that understandable or if it is then it's just being ignored which is stupid because you're just cutting out parts of the game for no reason.
3. I agree with you that Bone Shaper having more winning matchups than other variations for other characters makes it a top 5 variation but that doesn't make a whole character top 5 because that ignores the other two parts of the character. Bone Shaper might have lots of winning matchups but Necromancer doesn't and it's part of the character. A character is all three variations, if you're going to ignore other variations you're then not considering the character as a whole. Does that not seem to make sense or what?

What? You're saying that a character in MKX doesn't exist? A character, which is composed of three variations, doesn't exist in MKX? Don't know what game you're playing...

Oh look, someone else that thinks having a different opinion automatically makes the other person wrong and that means you can insult them for no reason instead of making valid points :) I should really start dickriding like everyone else eh? :)

You're still arguing semantics. Variations are not independent of their character. They do not exist in a vacuum. You cannot have Boneshaper without Shinnok.

Honestly, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Your point is irrelevant when considering tiers.

Even if Boneshaper Shinnok had two variations that went 0-10 with the cast, except Boneshaper which went 10-0, then it's still the best character in the game.

Literally everyone understands this concept but you, who are too busy arguing pointless semantics.

It's like watching a monkey try to fuck a football.
 

MrInsaynne

PG Coach Steve
I Havent been reading all these replies (I never do) but I just want to say one thing:

Don't take our opinions to heart. Our opinions are exactly that...OPINIONS. Just like YOMI has their own, and you guys have your own. That said. When I get back from SCR I'll complete the rest of this tier list for you guys since we didn't go through everyone.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Ok let's make it simple, I'll reduce it down.

1. Tempest = 1 variation. Kung Lao = a character. A character = 3 variations. Is that wrong? Yes or no?
2. As I said, treating a variation as a character is fine and I'm not talking about that. Calling a variation as a character is incorrect because that's not how MKX works since a character has not one, not two, but three variations. It blows my mind that simple game mechanic notation isn't that understandable or if it is then it's just being ignored which is stupid because you're just cutting out parts of the game for no reason.
3. I agree with you that Bone Shaper having more winning matchups than other variations for other characters makes it a top 5 variation but that doesn't make a whole character top 5 because that ignores the other two parts of the character. Bone Shaper might have lots of winning matchups but Necromancer doesn't and it's part of the character. A character is all three variations, if you're going to ignore other variations you're then not considering the character as a whole. Does that not seem to make sense or what?

What? You're saying that a character in MKX doesn't exist? A character, which is composed of three variations, doesn't exist in MKX? Don't know what game you're playing...

Oh look, someone else that thinks having a different opinion automatically makes the other person wrong and that means you can insult them for no reason instead of making valid points :) I should really start dickriding like everyone else eh? :)

Let me put it another way:

 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I Havent been reading all these replies (I never do) but I just want to say one thing:

Don't take our opinions to heart. Our opinions are exactly that...OPINIONS. Just like YOMI has their own, and you guys have your own. That said. When I get back from SCR I'll complete the rest of this tier list for you guys since we didn't go through everyone.
...and I-ee-I-ee-III!!!
 

LEGEND

YES!
Ok let's make it simple, I'll reduce it down.

1. Tempest = 1 variation. Kung Lao = a character. A character = 3 variations. Is that wrong? Yes or no?
2. As I said, treating a variation as a character is fine and I'm not talking about that. Calling a variation as a character is incorrect because that's not how MKX works since a character has not one, not two, but three variations. It blows my mind that simple game mechanic notation isn't that understandable or if it is then it's just being ignored which is stupid because you're just cutting out parts of the game for no reason.
3. I agree with you that Bone Shaper having more winning matchups than other variations for other characters makes it a top 5 variation but that doesn't make a whole character top 5 because that ignores the other two parts of the character. Bone Shaper might have lots of winning matchups but Necromancer doesn't and it's part of the character. A character is all three variations, if you're going to ignore other variations you're then not considering the character as a whole. Does that not seem to make sense or what?

What? You're saying that a character in MKX doesn't exist? A character, which is composed of three variations, doesn't exist in MKX? Don't know what game you're playing...

Oh look, someone else that thinks having a different opinion automatically makes the other person wrong and that means you can insult them for no reason instead of making valid points :) I should really start dickriding like everyone else eh? :)
Sorry, Didnt realize you could play every one of a character'e variations at the same time, silly me

God, what am i doing posting here. . .
 

Robotic

Gentleman.
If one variation is the most optimal in every matchup, then that's how the character is. If the variation carries the character to having some of the best matchup charts among the cast, then the character is likely a top tier character. It doesn't matter if the character has a useless variation.
Word. The legwork must be done on variation MUs first to get to that point, though. Ideally speaking, if character A fights character B, one must choose the best variation to combat the other...HOWEVER, there will be moments when the variation character A chooses CHANGES the variation of character B in order to deal. This cannot be escaped, therefore, variation MUs are the ONLY way to go. Variations are characters. Repeat: Variations are characters. Everyone is shooting the breeze on TYM until we have a concerted effort from SUPER experienced and respected MKX players to come out with a variation MU list.

There are 70 plus characters in MKX right now. This will take time. More than the 4G network generation has patience for.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Even if Boneshaper Shinnok had two variations that went 0-10 with the cast, except Boneshaper which went 10-0, then it's still the best character in the game.
@Youphemism forget everything else you've read and said and concentrate on this part.

If BS Shinnok 9-1'd the entire cast, but Necro and Imposter were 0-10'd by the entire cast, while all three variations of Jax 5-5, 6-4, and 7-3 most of the cast with only two 4-6 across all variations, then BS Shinnok would be the best variation and Shinnok would be the best character because that one variation of the character outweighs all three of the Jax variations combined.

The only way the best character should be defined by all three variations total is if it was a 3 variation vs 3 variation team battle type of fighting game, where you use all 3 in one actual match KOF style, but it isn't.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You know what? Whatever. Clearly noone gets what I'm trying to say even though I've spelled it out as much as I possibly can. Others misunderstanding what I'm saying is what causes these arguments in the first place. Call things whatever you want. As for the name-calling, seriously? Are we not above simple bullying on here? Jeez...
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
You know what? Whatever. Clearly noone gets what I'm trying to say even though I've spelled it out as much as I possibly can. Others misunderstanding what I'm saying is what causes these arguments in the first place. Call things whatever you want. As for the name-calling, seriously? Are we not above simple bullying on here? Jeez...
I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying. You are saying that you can't judge a character altogether on just one or two variations...you have to consider the entire thing.

Everyone is saying that's not the case. Which it isn't. Because having a useless variation is kinda like a character having a useless move in their entire move list. The character is still top tier if he is that good otherwise.
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Meanwhile... it makes sense to keep tier list with characters only and match up charts with all variations. It would be great if a match up chart was developed.
I really don't understand this. You can't use more than one variation's tools per match so why should it count as the same character? You literally have to lose a game and go back to the character select screen if you ever want to change variation.

I understand that if you really wanna be picky about the meanings of the words, then yes each variation contributes to the character as a whole. But if you look at it from a common sense point of view then each variation is it's own character and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
 
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The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
You know what? Whatever. Clearly noone gets what I'm trying to say even though I've spelled it out as much as I possibly can. Others misunderstanding what I'm saying is what causes these arguments in the first place. Call things whatever you want. As for the name-calling, seriously? Are we not above simple bullying on here? Jeez...
I think everyone gets what you're trying to say. They just think you're arguing for the sake of arguing, which it seems like you are.

Like @Rude already said, you're arguing semantics while he's arguing game mechanics. You're having two slightly different arguments which is why you're getting nowhere.